Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

On the rise in the polls that everybody is sooo keen to use when it suits. Poison you say?
I lived through all you mention above but I also seen what caused it, and came to understand why the lid came off and who reneged on their responsibilities to put it back on.
It is no accident that it is their 'brand' that is in decline.

I thought you heard these stories from your parents and others as you mentioned in another thread rather than living through it yourself?

Maybe I am mixing you up but I don't think so.

Godge

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My point is the SF and the PIRA did not act in a vacuum as some seem to think.

It was an appalling situation with atrocities committed by both sides and the utter failure of both Westminster and Dublin to act to protect people from Sectarian discrimination.

But some people don't want to hear or acknowledge that but are still ready to condemn one side while remaining silent/denying the actions of the other. Either events in NI are relevant or they are not. If they are relevant - have the decency not to be so bloody biased and acknowledge the horrors committed by both sides.

If they are not relevant - people shouldn't keep bringing them up.

I don't think SF will distance themselves from Adams a la FF and Bertie. I think they are playing a very, very clever long game. I said at the time of the presidential campaign that I believed McGuinness had no desire to be President but was running as a stalking horse to flush the old SF/PIRA arguments out - I believe they are doing the same with Adams. He will attract the same old roars about the PIRA and then stand aside for the likes of MacDonald who has no connection to the paramilitaries. What will Enda use to try and silence her in the Dail???

Also, it is actually refreshing to see an Irish political party play a long game as opposed to the reactive short-term fixes we are used to from the Big Three.

I am not being asked to vote for the apologists for the UDA or any other loyalist terrorist organisation. I am being asked to vote for the apologists for the IRA.

To make it clear, neither set of apologists would ever get a vote from me.

In that way, I am treating both sides evenhandedly.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

I thought you heard these stories from your parents and others as you mentioned in another thread rather than living through it yourself?

Maybe I am mixing you up but I don't think so.

Not me. I am closer to 100 than I am to 1.

twowheelsgood

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Tell me - where the 'original' IRB/IRA actions all 'justified' - they bombed and murdered in the UK too...hell, in 1866 some of them even attempted to invade Canada - that's what I call 'enlarging'...

The rights of wrong of these actions are solely a matter of academic historical interest. (Personally I would prefer if all the glorifying stuff that goes on with the likes of them and the 1916 lot didn’t happen but alas the world is not yet mature enough to dispense with the nonsenses that are nationalism and religion – but that’s an aside)

The difficulty with modern day republicans is that there are current members of their ranks who engage in or endorse behaviour that is simply unacceptable in a modern democracy. We have the adventures of Gerry Adams in the news at the moment, but a far more sinister matter, though not as emotively charged, is that there is another member of the national parliament who has publically lent his support to some to some who have murdered police officers who were tasked with protecting this state, and was uncensored (and would never have been censored) by his party for so doing.

Some of us do not have to think too long and hard to see what an appalling vista this is. Far, far worse in principle, if not in impact, than the various economic “crimes” committed by members in other parities.

And this is not historical. Mr Ferris’s odious actions are but the mind-set remains. I say a young SF prospective counsellor on Vinny Browne last night who refused to distance himself from a remark by a colleague that the murderers of the two RUC men murdered as they returned from Dundalk were “doing their job” or words to that effect.

The real appalling vista here of course is that there was absolutely zero likelihood that he, or any other SF rep, would have distanced themselves. And this guy is the future, not the past, of SF!

Blowfish

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That 'stuff that happened 80 years+ years ago' - do you mean the formation of the State most of us live in? Sure. That has nothing at all at all do do with now even though there are people still alive who remember it all very well.

It has plenty to do with now in relation to the formation of the state. It has however, zero to do with Enda Kenny, hence why Gerry 'shouting back' at Enda in relation to it makes no sense.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What about events that happened in 1972 - are they relevant?

What about 1994? Are they relevant?

If the people involved are still around, active or looking for me to vote for them, then yes, they are very much relevant.

Godge wrote: »

I am not being asked to vote for the apologists for the UDA or any other loyalist terrorist organisation. I am being asked to vote for the apologists for the IRA.

To make it clear, neither set of apologists would ever get a vote from me.

In that way, I am treating both sides evenhandedly.

Likewise. I'm half Irish, half English, I'm neither Catholic nor Protestant (nor have ever been either of these) and have a healthy disdain for the blind nationalism that makes people ignorant to the actions that have occurred (in NI and elsewhere) from governments/groups on both sides of the pond. I have no dog in this fight, but no amount of saying 'but the other side committed atrocities too' is going to convince me to vote for a party whose senior members were either involved or apologists for any of the atrocities that occurred.

And that's not even starting on the economic end of things.

Bannasidhe

Godge wrote: »

I thought you heard these stories from your parents and others as you mentioned in another thread rather than living through it yourself?

Maybe I am mixing you up but I don't think so.

I lived through it - I vividly remember how The Bogside Massacre/Bloody Sunday was the subject of the entire days broadcast on our one TV station.

I remember the Dublin bombings and how worried my mother was as my sister worked in the area.

I remember Enniskillin, Omagh, Warrington, Brighton, Hyde Park.

I remember how John Stalker was vilified for stating his investigation showed the existence of a Shot to Kill Policy.

I remember coming to the attention of the authorities in the UK because I was one of many who signed a letter calling into question the legality of the shootings in Gibraltar.

I remember being on trains/Tubes in the UK with my baby son and having to evacuate due to PIRA bomb threats.

I remember being in Belfast in the early 1980s and turning a corner too quickly only to find the muzzle of a gun pressed into my stomach by a terrified looking British solider. Ironically, this occurred in a staunchly Unionist area - if he was that scared there, the mind boggles at how he would have felt and reacted in a Nationalist area.

I remember going to buy my sister a box of Bensen & Hedges and practising saying 'aitch' the whole way there and the absolute fear I felt when the shop door was locked behind me and I realised I was trapped with people who openly supported the UVF - sister got silk cut...

I remember the fear most of all. The fear that just for being perceived as a 'fenian/Taig' I could be killed on the island of Ireland by one of these polite, friendly, chatty people in the local shop or by that young squaddy who was so terrified he was just one startle away from pulling the trigger.

If I had grown up in those conditions - a vicious sectarian civil war with the authorities favouring one side - I do not know how I would have reacted, but I can understand how perfectly ordinary people on both sides of a tribal divide found themselves trapped in a war of escalating atrocities and I recognise that some involved on both sides were murderous thugs.
Maybe I would have gotten the hell out of dodge - but I did that anyway to escape from 'holy catlick' Ireland...:D



So what if Happyman did or did not exist at the time - the issue is whether they happened or not. Do you deny that SF and the PIRA reacted (whether one agrees with their form of reaction or not is not the question) to events as they happened in NI?

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What about events that happened in 1972 - are they relevant?

I don't vote for British Army or Loyalist candidates, either, OK?

Bannasidhe

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I don't vote for British Army or Loyalist candidates, either, OK?

Is MacDonald tainted too?

What about Doherty?

Once the Adams/McGuinness generation are gone and the candidates have no connection to the PIRA and were born, bred and reared in the Republic does that solve it?

Blowfish

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Once the Adams/McGuinness generation are gone and the candidates have no connection to the PIRA and were born, bred and reared in the Republic does that solve it?

It would go a long way alright, it'd just leave them needing some decent workable policies.

marienbad

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It is?

Why don't you educate me so?

Do you deny that 13 people were murdered by British soldiers on Bloody Sunday during a peaceful civil rights march?

Do you deny the existence of the Shankill Butchers?

Do you deny the Dublin Bombing happened?

Do you deny the existence of a Shoot to Kill policy?

Do you deny the existence of a cage around Belfast city centre?

Do you deny that the RUC was heavily biased towards the Unionist population?

Are you claiming that all the population of NI was treated equally by the authorities?

Are you claiming the the Irish government acted to protect people in NI?

Are you claiming SF was not censored?

Tell me exactly where I am wrong.

Tell me I was not searched in April 1983 in Belfast just because I wanted to go into the city centre while in possession of a Cork accent.

Tell me my colleague (an internationally recognised historian) who is from an East Belfast protestant background is lying when he says he grew up in an such an apartheid system that the first 'Irish Catholics' he met were fellow students from the Republic at Cambridge University in 1979.

Show me how SF and the PIRA came about in a peaceful vacuum where everything in NI was so hunky dory that very ordinary people of Derry took to the streets to peacefully protest about full enjoyment of civil rights and were accidentally shot.

Explain to me how the slogan 'Donegal Road where the Fenians don't go' was a bit of light hearted teasing - as was the very prominent sign saying 'We Got One. We Got Two. We Got Thirteen More Than You' just over the border where the NI buses which collected passengers from the Republic liked to stop with their headlights illuminating that happy little slogan.

Tell me how a ceasefire was possible without SF?

After the Warrington bombing I proudly wore a t-shirt in London where I lived which declared that Republican paramilitaries did not represent me nor did I support them. However, I grew up safe and sound in leafy middle class Cork far removed from the situation in NI so I could sit on my high horse. I honestly cannot say how I would have reacted had I grown up in NI and had to live through the situation there.

The fact remains - SF were instrumental in securing a ceasefire. They got the PIRA to lay down their arms - not FF/FG/LP who abandoned Irish citizens living in NI to their fate for decades.

But sure - let's all follow Enda's lead an shout about Jean McConville rather than deal with the now. How Gerry Adams isn't shouting back asking Enda about Collins signing Harry Boland's execution order is a mystery to me as it is just as, not, relevant to the business of the Dáil.

Not that I agree with the above but what relevance has all this to the voter in the coming elections ?

'The National Question' is very low down on the list of priorities of the average voter and the constant lecturing from a the moral high horse about abandonment and betrayal is just pure romantic rubbish.

My old man first voted in the 1930's and until the day he died SF refused to recognise the validity of that vote and the state where it was cast. What is so different now ? You and they are still looking at today's problems through an outdated lens and berating us because we don't get it.

Well I have news for you - f*&k off , my vote is there to be earned and it is a privilege for whom so ever gets it. So stop lecturing on events on what is, whether we like it not or agree with it or not de facto, a foreign country and start addressing concerns of THIS electorate.

Godge

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Is MacDonald tainted too?

What about Doherty?

Once the Adams/McGuinness generation are gone and the candidates have no connection to the PIRA and were born, bred and reared in the Republic does that solve it?

It will take 30 years for the party to lose its image.

As long as the likes of Adams, mcGuinness, Ferris and the other thugs are celebrated and feted, then I will not be able to vote for them.

As someone else said, it is only then you start to look at the crazy economic policies.

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

Not that I agree with the above but what relevance has all this to the voter in the coming elections ?

'The National Question' is very low down on the list of priorities of the average voter and the constant lecturing from a the moral high horse about abandonment and betrayal is just pure romantic rubbish.

My old man first voted in the 1930's and until the day he died SF refused to recognise the validity of that vote and the state where it was cast. What is so different now ? You and they are still looking at today's problems through an outdated lens and berating us because we don't get it.

Well I have news for you - f*&k off , my vote is there to be earned and it is a privilege for whom so ever gets it. So stop lecturing on events on what is, whether we like it not or agree with it or not de facto, a foreign country and start addressing concerns of THIS electorate.

If telling me to f*&k off for having the cheek to question your dismissal of my post out of hand and requesting you deal with the points I made (- points which were in direct response to issues raised -) on a discussion board is what you consider 'debate' then I don't think you are in a position to criticise anyone.

marienbad

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If telling me to f*&k off for having the cheek to question your dismissal of my post out of hand and requesting you deal with the points I made (- points which were in direct response to issues raised -) on a discussion board is what you consider 'debate' then I don't think you are in a position to criticise anyone.

I am not criticising anyone , I just find your post condescending and irrelevant and I am entitled to say so.

I could have answered it line by line ( or those lines I disagreed with) but as I say I found it irrelevant.

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Once the Adams/McGuinness generation are gone and the candidates have no connection to the PIRA and were born, bred and reared in the Republic does that solve it?

Then I will just be voting based on policies, so they could climb up my ballot a bit.

stooge

Godge wrote: »

It will take 30 years for the party to lose its image.

As long as the likes of Adams, mcGuinness, Ferris and the other thugs are celebrated and feted, then I will not be able to vote for them.

As someone else said, it is only then you start to look at the crazy economic policies.

Strange that it will take SF 30 years to lose its image while FG will most likely get back in power quicker than that despite the 'thugs' like Ahern etc who probably did more harm to the country than SF ever will!

Crazy economic policies indeed!! lol

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

I am not criticising anyone , I just find your post condescending and irrelevant and I am entitled to say so.

I could have answered it line by line ( or those lines I disagreed with) but as I say I found it irrelevant.

And telling some one to ' f*&k off' is acceptable?

I was responding to those who introduced NI into the discussion. If you think it is not relevant than either say so to those who brought the issue up as a reason SF are 'bad' or ignore any posts that deal with NI.

the_syco

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You write as if SF existed in a vacuum where everything was really hunky dory in NI and they were just trouble makers. No - it was NOT hunky dory. It was an apartheid set-up and they reacted to that having been abandoned by the so-called 'republicans' in the South.

SF have done, and still do, great things up North. Down here, different story. They have stood next to Garda killer (heck, one of them picked up the killers from prison).

=-=

Regarding SF's Plan;

I wonder how people would react to the Shinners plan on adding another 20cents to the existing price? Most likely just buy the cigs on the black market.

» Increase Revenue Commissioner activity to target tax evasion:
Raises €100 million

Do they know something that we don't?

We commit to ring-fencing the money raised from the wealth tax to ensure every young person in the State can avail of a job or a training place

A job doing what, exactly? Where shall these magic jobs come from? A large portion of the sugar beet industry will be seasonal, no? And mostly done by machines.

=-=

Lowering the amount that they'll pay consultants will just mean the consultants will just go elsewhere.

Take the final say off the banks
Use political pressure to make banks face the reality of the size of this crisis, socially and economically

Da fuq? Short term populist nonsense. If banks cannot get what is owed, why should they lend to anyone?

Make more use of write-downs as an option on a case-by-case basis

Write downs as decided by who? A group of people selected by a populist government?

The Irish Government and the Assembly to produce a timescale for developing integrated public services across the island

In 2013, 28.1% of people worked in the public sector in Northern Ireland. I wonder how many of these jobs will cease to exist if we "integrated public services across the island"?

marienbad

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And telling some one to ' f*&k off' is acceptable?

I was responding to those who introduced NI into the discussion. If you think it is not relevant than either say so to those who brought the issue up as a reason SF are 'bad' or ignore any posts that deal with NI.

Apologies then ,the 'f*7k off' was not so much meant at you personally , after all I don't even know you, but at those condescending lecturing posts we constantly get on these threads. And imho your post was in that territory.

Bannasidhe

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Then I will just be voting based on policies, so they could climb up my ballot a bit.

and this, I think, is the long-term game SF are playing. Let McGuinness etc take the PIRA flak as they come up to retirement age while MacDonald is free to make a name for herself by asking tough questions.

Once 'The Troubles' generation is gone and all the PIRA flak has been weathered certain young SF deputies will be poised to act untainted by association with a track record of speaking out in the Dáil and questioning the sitting government as members of the Opposition are meant to do....

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

Apologies then ,the 'f*7k off' was not so much meant at you personally , after all I don't even know you, but at those condescending lecturing posts we constantly get on these threads. And imho your post was in that territory.

Then either don't respond if you think it is not relevant, raise your objections with the people who introduced that particular topic or deal with the points raised.

You did none of those and are compounding it by continually critiquing my posting style not the content.

Since I very rarely post in Politics it's interesting to see that I have been instantly pigeon holed and dismissed rather than responded to with a rebuttal. Reminds me why I rarely post here...

K-9

Godge wrote: »

It will take 30 years for the party to lose its image.

As long as the likes of Adams, mcGuinness, Ferris and the other thugs are celebrated and feted, then I will not be able to vote for them.

As someone else said, it is only then you start to look at the crazy economic policies.

marienbad wrote: »

Apologies then ,the 'f*7k off' was not so much meant at you personally , after all I don't even know you, but at those condescending lecturing posts we constantly get on these threads. And imho your post was in that territory.

Mod:

In fairness it's hardly helpful for a political debate, tone it down in future please.

Calling politicians thugs isn't helpful either, it just tends to lead to a shouting match.Cut it, thanks.

marienbad

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And telling some one to ' f*&k off' is acceptable?

I was responding to those who introduced NI into the discussion. If you think it is not relevant than either say so to those who brought the issue up as a reason SF are 'bad' or ignore any posts that deal with NI.

As I already said I wasn't referring to you personally, after all you are not looking for my vote , or are you ? So take it in the context of the total post.

I have not once critiqued your posting style - content yes , style no.

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Once 'The Troubles' generation is gone and all the PIRA flak has been weathered certain young SF deputies will be poised to act untainted by association with a track record of speaking out in the Dáil and questioning the sitting government as members of the Opposition are meant to do....

This only works until you get into government Suddenly, a solid record opposing everything can become a liability, when you have to turn around and do many of the things you were opposed to a short time previous.

And then you get murdered at the next general. See, Labour (every time), PDs, Green Party, Workers Party etc. etc.

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

As I already said I wasn't referring to you personally, after all you are not looking for my vote , or are you ? So take it in the context of the total post.

I have not once critiqued your posting style - content yes , style no.

No. I don't want your vote. I don't actually care who you vote for. I care who I vote for so I am exploring and examining the various arguments against SF which is the purpose of this thread.

The word 'condescending' is not usually applied to content or context.

But since this whole issue is apparently not relevant perhaps we could move on now - you to dealing with those points you believe are relevant and me to those points that I find relevant?

Tabnabs

Bannasidhe wrote: »

and this, I think, is the long-term game SF are playing. Let McGuinness etc take the PIRA flak as they come up to retirement age while MacDonald is free to make a name for herself by asking tough questions.

Once 'The Troubles' generation is gone and all the PIRA flak has been weathered certain young SF deputies will be poised to act untainted by association with a track record of speaking out in the Dáil and questioning the sitting government as members of the Opposition are meant to do....

In fairness, I would agree entirely with this assessment. SF will, one day, stand solely on their election manifesto and the past will become mostly irrelevant as it has for FF and FG, amongst others. And this is a good thing, it's correct democracy. Then the voters can make up their mind based solely on policy and promises as opposed to armalite and the ballot box.

Bannasidhe

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This only works until you get into government Suddenly, a solid record opposing everything can become a liability, when you have to turn around and do many of the things you were opposed to a short time previous.

And then you get murdered at the next general. See, Labour (every time), PDs, Green Party, Workers Party etc. etc.

What exactly is the alternative? That is the problem.

Who do I vote for?

I have never voted for FF/FG/PD/SWP/SF - I will not voted for the LP in it's current incarnation

Who do I vote for?

FF/FG - they are both utterly tainted in my eyes due to their actions while in government over the years.

LP - they can take a jump unless they find that Red Flag and start waving it again.

Greens - have to redeem themselves.

WP - don't have the national structure and tend more left than I am comfortable with but I would give them a preference.

PBP - if they have a candidate I will give them a vote but I think their alliance is a bit too loosely structured - wouldn't mind seeing them in a coalition.

That leaves SF - my instinct says 'NO' but where does that come from?

I am trying to rationally look at this knee jerk reaction and examine the substance of the arguments against and, quite honestly, I haven't seen any that cannot be applied to every other Irish political party/ ignore the historical context / are outright dismissals with no actual arguments presented.

Banjo String

Godge wrote: »

I am not being asked to vote for the apologists for the UDA or any other loyalist terrorist organisation. I am being asked to vote for the apologists for the IRA.

To make it clear, neither set of apologists would ever get a vote from me.

In that way, I am treating both sides evenhandedly.

Your views are clearly irrelevant though Godge.

Sadly you're so uninformed about what was happening north of your little utopia, you believed that Sinn Fein were responsible for the Omagh bombing.

Godge

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What exactly is the alternative? That is the problem.

Who do I vote for?

I have never voted for FF/FG/PD/SWP/SF - I will not voted for the LP in it's current incarnation

Who do I vote for?

FF/FG - they are both utterly tainted in my eyes due to their actions while in government over the years.

LP - they can take a jump unless they find that Red Flag and start waving it again.

Greens - have to redeem themselves.

WP - don't have the national structure and tend more left than I am comfortable with but I would give them a preference.

PBP - if they have a candidate I will give them a vote but I think their alliance is a bit too loosely structured - wouldn't mind seeing them in a coalition.

That leaves SF - my instinct says 'NO' but where does that come from?

I am trying to rationally look at this knee jerk reaction and examine the substance of the arguments against and, quite honestly, I haven't seen any that cannot be applied to every other Irish political party/ ignore the historical context / are outright dismissals with no actual arguments presented.

Quite simply, I will not vote for any party that has been involved in terrorism during my lifetime and has not made amends. SF fall clearly in that category.

As for the rest, FF ruined the country on 30 September 2008 and will never get my vote (at least SF could theoretically get my vote in many years time).

I voted Green in the 2007 election but they were naive. I do think Eamon Ryan is one who learned from that and I am strongly considering giving him my vote.

FG/Labour were landed with a mess and have made a genuine attempt to sort it out. They have made mistakes too but I have a wait and see attitude with them. I don't think I can vote No. 1 for them this time but am open to a preference or No. 1 come the general election.

The Socialists/PBP don't have a clue and you never know what you are getting with an independent.

Probably means I will vote Green.

Godge

Banjo String wrote: »

Your views are clearly irrelevant though Godge.

Sadly you're so uninformed about what was happening north of your little utopia, you believed that Sinn Fein were responsible for the Omagh bombing.

That is not what I said, I said they were responsible for creating the climate of acceptability of bombing civilians.

Indirect responsibility is not the same thing as direct responsibility. Isn't that the same argument that republicans use for saying that the Unionists were responsible for the Troubles as they oppressed the Catholic minority.

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have never voted for FF/FG/PD/SWP/SF - I will not voted for the LP in it's current incarnation

One of the strengths of the PR system is that you can use it to vote against people rather than for them. I fill up my ballot from last to first, and I don't think of it as voting for anyone.

I voted #1 for a Green Party no-hoper last time, and my vote eventually helped elect a FGer. But what I was actually doing was voting against FF, several independent lunatics, SF, and then the local Labour oaf.

If you vote that way and SF finish on top, by all means vote for them. But don't be surprised if you spend the duration of their first government complaining about broken promises and how SF said they'd transform politics, just as the folks who switched from FF to FG last time are complaining now.