Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

Bannasidhe

Godge wrote: »

Quite simply, I will not vote for any party that has been involved in terrorism during my lifetime and has not made amends. SF fall clearly in that category.

As for the rest, FF ruined the country on 30 September 2008 and will never get my vote (at least SF could theoretically get my vote in many years time).

I voted Green in the 2007 election but they were naive. I do think Eamon Ryan is one who learned from that and I am strongly considering giving him my vote.

FG/Labour were landed with a mess and have made a genuine attempt to sort it out. They have made mistakes too but I have a wait and see attitude with them. I don't think I can vote No. 1 for them this time but am open to a preference or No. 1 come the general election.

The Socialists/PBP don't have a clue and you never know what you are getting with an independent.

Probably means I will vote Green.

I hear ya and am in much the same boat except that I think SF are trying to redeem themselves and their success in getting the PIRA to lay down their arms at least earns them the right to be examined.

I have to vote or my granny will come back and haunt me :pac:. She was fanatical about voting and often told me about accompanying her mother,aged 12, in the vote for the first Dáil - all of the choices they had 'links to terrorists' technically speaking - some of the candidates had killed, many had been jailed. Should they have refused to vote for any of them or should they have said it is time to move on and embrace the ballot completely?

Should we not be encouraging SF to continue along it's present path, following only the democratic process, or do we live in the past and keep replaying it?

old hippy

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Should we not be encouraging SF to continue along it's present path, following only the democratic process, or do we live in the past and keep replaying it?

Absolutely. Severing links with Gerry Adams (regardless of whether he knows something or not) may be the way forward.

Bannasidhe

old hippy wrote: »

Absolutely. Severing links with Gerry Adams (regardless of whether he knows something or not) may be the way forward.

I agree.

However I think more the people clamour for him to go the longer he will remain as SF will not be seen to remove him as that would imply they see him as having done something 'wrong'. Adams will go at a time when there can be no hint of it not being completely his own decision with no outside pressure.

SF are far better at the optics than any other Irish party. Now this can be considered a good thing or a bad thing - it's probably both.

On the one hand it shows a level of internal control that could be confused for group-think and a clear plan at play. On the other hand it shows they do look at the big long-term picture and are able to stay on message.

marienbad

Labour/FG for me , they were left with a mess and have made a decent effort to resolve it. They have done enough to warrant more time.

Anyone else would just make it worse.

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

SF are far better at the optics than any other Irish party.

It's easy to be good at optics when that's all you have to do.

More difficult when you have to govern at the same time.

Bannasidhe

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It's easy to be good at optics when that's all you have to do.

More difficult when you have to govern at the same time.

and yet no other Irish party has been able to manage it whether in government or opposition.

the_syco

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Adams will go at a time when there can be no hint of it not being completely his own decision with no outside pressure.

He's spent about half of his life as the leader of SF, and I think he'll continue until he dies. To be fair, who else has anywhere near as much credibility as he does? Martin McGuinness may be a close second, but as he has admitted to being ex-IRA, I'm unsure if the British politicians would handle him (and by default, SF) were he running SF?

marienbad

Bannasidhe wrote: »

and yet no other Irish party has been able to manage it whether in government or opposition.

I don't think SF have managed very well either .

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

I don't think SF have managed very well either .

If they can get nice middle class professional people like me who are left leaning to at least consider them - people who will not vote for any of the Big Three - people who want to break away from the if it's not FF in must be FG (with LP going to the highest bidder) - then I think they are managing quite well tbh.

Three years ago I would have not given them a thought.

Godge

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I agree.

However I think more the people clamour for him to go the longer he will remain as SF will not be seen to remove him as that would imply they see him as having done something 'wrong'. Adams will go at a time when there can be no hint of it not being completely his own decision with no outside pressure.

SF are far better at the optics than any other Irish party. Now this can be considered a good thing or a bad thing - it's probably both.

On the one hand it shows a level of internal control that could be confused for group-think and a clear plan at play. On the other hand it shows they do look at the big long-term picture and are able to stay on message.

It is precisely that they will not remove him as to why I would not vote for him.

This is not the 1920s, it is a different world, what was acceptable as a nod and a wink then is not acceptable now, the apologists for him do not understand this.

Until and unless SF own up to the crimes, they cannot get my vote. The only other way is major cleansing of the current generation to do that which will take 30 years.

Nodin

Godge wrote: »

It is precisely that they will not remove him as to why I would not vote for him.

This is not the 1920s, it is a different world, what was acceptable as a nod and a wink then is not acceptable now, the apologists for him do not understand this.

Until and unless SF own up to the crimes, they cannot get my vote. The only other way is major cleansing of the current generation to do that which will take 30 years.

....you seem to be confused here. The vast vast majority of the Republican movement don't regard most of what was done as "crimes".

Zubeneschamali

Nodin wrote: »

....you seem to be confused here. The vast vast majority of the Republican movement don't regard most of what was done as "crimes".

And if they keep that up, no votes from me.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

....you seem to be confused here. The vast vast majority of the Republican movement don't regard most of what was done as "crimes".

But the vast majority of voters do and there lies the rub . You will always be in opposition if you only preach to the converted.

marienbad

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If they can get nice middle class professional people like me who are left leaning to at least consider them - people who will not vote for any of the Big Three - people who want to break away from the if it's not FF in must be FG (with LP going to the highest bidder) - then I think they are managing quite well tbh.

Three years ago I would have not given them a thought.

If they couldn't pull it off at the last election when favourable conditions were at a maximum level for them I can't see them doing it now.

TINA1984

Godge wrote: »

Until and unless SF own up to the crimes, they cannot get my vote.

Not that I think it would matter to you, but PSF have been active for years in calling for a Truth & Reconciliation Commission for all actors in 'The Troubles' to tell us what they got up to.

Godge wrote: »

The only other way is major cleansing of the current generation to do that which will take 30 years.

Not really accurate, McDonald, Doherty, MacLochlann etc. are already the de facto faces for PSF in the south. I would hazard a guess a vast majority of their 26C membership and elected representatives have only come on board since the GFA.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

But the vast majority of voters do and there lies the rub . You will always be in opposition if you only preach to the converted.

....unless you make new converts, which is whats gradually happening.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

....unless you make new converts, which is whats gradually happening.

I don't think they are Nodin, they really should have made substantially more progress at the last election . It is actually mind boggling that they didn't.

And until they ask why and really listen they won't get near power . And the upcoming local/euro elections aren't what I am talking about.

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

If they couldn't pull it off at the last election when favourable conditions were at a maximum level for them I can't see them doing it now.

I disagree.

That last election was always going to go to FG. The only question was would they get an outright majority. If it's not FF it must be FG was still at play then (could still be - time will tell) and SF were never in the running for anything more than will they win more seats than FF or not aka just how far will the FF vote fall.

FG did not get an outright majority - fail for them.
LP were voted in to curb FG - they have not been seen to do so.

Both have left significant parts of the population feeling betrayed on all sides of the political spectrum.

I wouldn't expect SF to be in government next election as things stand but I do see the collapse of the LP vote earning them a significant increase in seats

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

I don't think they are Nodin, they really should have made substantially more progress at the last election . It is actually mind boggling that they didn't.

And until they ask why and really listen they won't get near power . And the upcoming local/euro elections aren't what I am talking about.

These things take time. I've seen things grow throughout my life time, and am confident that its possible to get there in the long run.

marienbad

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I disagree.

That last election was always going to go to FG. The only question was would they get an outright majority. If it's not FF it must be FG was still at play then (could still be - time will tell) and SF were never in the running for anything more than will they win more seats than FF or not aka just how far will the FF vote fall.

FG did not get an outright majority - fail for them.
LP were voted in to curb FG - they have not been seen to do so.

Both have left significant parts of the population feeling betrayed on all sides of the political spectrum.

I wouldn't expect SF to be in government next election as things stand but I do see the collapse of the LP vote earning them a significant increase in seats

Well if that is your definition of failure for FG then I would say you are alone in that.

Even SF own expectations were for a much higher representation , there is no denying that . And it is all the more striking when you see some of the astonishing independents that got in .

I don't believe the backlash against FG/Labour will be nearly as big as people think . I would even go so far as to predict that they will retain power quite comfortably in the general election.

shootermacg

Red Kev wrote: »

Utter populists, something I despise in politics, be it on the left or right.

Quick get that man a dictator!

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

These things take time. I've seen things grow throughout my life time, and am confident that its possible to get there in the long run.

Not without a change of policies and I say that as a lifelong left wing voter .

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Not without a change of policies and I say that as a lifelong left wing voter .

....there are some policies that may change across time obviously, but you were referring to specifically a rejection of the armed struggle, and that's just not on.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

....there are some policies that may change across time obviously, but you were referring to specifically a rejection of the armed struggle, and that's just not on.

Actually I wasn't , I think you and I might have a different view on the armed struggle , probably a vehement disagreement. But I tend to be more pragmatic in that what's done is done and can't be undone so lets move on as best we can.

I do find the smugness and self-righteousness a bit irritating and people have a perfect right to be offended at some of the behaviour at times but I would say the same of any other grouping.

Rather than give a long list of issues I would have with them , lets just stick with the economic one.

It is just their absolute inability to grasp even the fundamentals of any economic platform that scares the ****e out of me. They are living in a different time . So are FF/FG/Labour by the way , just not as far back in the past.

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

....unless you make new converts, which is whats gradually happening.

Take my parents - children of the 'Free State' and republicans who were once called 'terrorists' - one a lifelong FG voter, the other a life long FF voter (different sides in the not relevant civil war ) .

Last election the FF voter voted LP (first time ever) to try and curb FG.

The FG voter voted FG.

Both have now declared they intend (should they live so long) to vote SF. That is two converts right there.

My 'half-English' son, in his late 20s, has always voted LP and was a party member. Now he is looking at SF because the likes of MacDonald are the ones who comes nearest to expressing how he feels and thinks about our current government. Another convert.

I am a life-long left wing voter, from the professional ranks of the so-called middle class, and I am considering SF. A potential convert.

My genuinely a millionaire owns a factory golf playing porsche driving big brother is an SF supporter. He admires Adams and he believes they have some 'clever b**tards' in their ranks who he would like to see have a crack at the whip rather than the usual shower of gombeen men and 'it was me Daddy's seat' dynasts. He says you can do business with SF and not end up feeling soiled by the brown envelope brigade. I will have to take his word for that....


I doubt my family is unique.

carpejugulum

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh. You said SF wanted to reduce wealth and were proud of the fact. Now you are saying they don't say this at all but that is what will happen with their economic policy.
Bit different those two things is all.

Their policies will reduce wealth so effectively they want to reduce wealth because it's obvious.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Pardon? The rich will get higher welfare payments under Sinn Fein? That's well hidden in their manifesto!

Where do you think most of that money will end up?

RDM_83 again

As a Northerner I have never quiet understood the deep seated, knee-jerk hatred that a significant amount of people in the Republic have.
I understand how the armed campaign and and the atrocities that were committed at times by the IRA are one cause, but the fact is in a post cease-fire environment (and it was 20 years ago), moderate nationalists have flocked to Sinn Fein in NI.

How come the people that actually had to live with consequences of the Troubles seem to be much more willing to vote for a post-ceasefire SF and recognize that this is not the bad old days (which I thankfully didn't see much of) while those in the ROI will hold such a dislike for them even though they would have never felt any of the repercussions of the armed campaign.
And thats not even getting started on the fact that the Unionists are expected to govern with them in NI but the idea of SF government in the ROI unthinkable because of their violent background.

My thinking on this and it will probably get some posters backs up, is that much of the dislike of SF particularly by the older generation is less to do with the Troubles and more to do with both a repressed sense of guilt over historic nationalist treatment in NI and the fact that SF traditionally did not respect the government of the ROI.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

He admires Adams and he believes they have some 'clever b**tards' in their ranks who he would like to see have a crack at the whip rather than the usual shower of gombeen men and 'it was me Daddy's seat' dynasts. He says you can do business with SF and now end up feeling soiled by the brown envelope brigade. I will have to take his word for that....

I do vote SF perhaps not 1st preference but they always get a transfer, but I think its possible that Adams, who is a very smart man, is not a politician suited to the Dail, one of my chief criticisms of the Northern old guard playing a highly visible role in the party in the ROI, is that 'clever b**stards' that they are is that they are not used to working in a more normal political environment as the NI Assembly though absolutely necessary can not really be considered to be a function 'normal' democracy.

Though this discussion is focused on SF within the ROI, I do feel at some stage there is going to be a fragmentation with Northern SF, as though the party is 'forward thinking' in regards to many issues many of their supporters would be deeply socially conservative, at present they can be both progressive and not offend this rump of voters though since the Unionists can be guaranteed to block any motion with a whiff of Liberalism to it:rolleyes: .

the_syco

RDM_83 again wrote: »

How come the people that actually had to live with consequences of the Troubles seem to be much more willing to vote for a post-ceasefire SF

Mainly as NI SF and Republic SF seem to play by a different rule book. EG; I'd like for NI SF to abolish all the taxes that RoI SF are so against.

Also, although NI SF are seen as bringers of peace, RoI SF are seen as linked to a terrorist organisation that liked to rob post offices in RoI.

maccored

the_syco wrote: »

EG; I'd like for NI SF to abolish all the taxes that RoI SF are so against.

they can't. Arent all the parties in the north fighting westminister to get those very powers? London controls the purse strings in northern ireland

Bannasidhe

the_syco wrote: »

Mainly as NI SF and Republic SF seem to play by a different rule book. EG; I'd like for NI SF to abolish all the taxes that RoI SF are so against.

Also, although NI SF are seen as bringers of peace, RoI SF are seen as linked to a terrorist organisation that liked to rob post offices in RoI.

Does the NI Assembly decide taxation policy or is that the perogative of Westminster?

Genuine question - I would google but am reliant on a dongle in rural Ireland atm and I'm lucky I got this page to open after an hour of hitting reload. :mad: