Don't vote for nepotism!

anncoates

The oxymoronic thread title keeps making me chuckle. Nepotism typically bypasses the election process.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Maphisto wrote: »

Well I'd define it as "patronage bestowed or favoritism shown on the basis of family relationship, as in business and politics"

So what is your take on it?

Nepotism is favoritism granted in politics or business to relatives.

Who exactly is showing favoritsim to someone running in an open free election?

Classice case of people looking for something to be outraged about when nothing exists

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

anncoates wrote: »

The oxymoronic thread title keeps making me chuckle. Nepotism typically bypasses the election process.

This

Guy:Incognito

Maphisto wrote: »

Well I'd define it as "patronage bestowed or favoritism shown on the basis of family relationship, as in business and politics"

So what is your take on it?

They can put them forward for election, they cant make people vote for them.

If you owned a company would you give a friend or relative a job if they needed one, assuming they can do it? Or would you leave them on the dole so as not to be seen to be favouring them?

techdiver

As usual people jump on the somewhat inaccurate use of the word nepotism to describe what is endemic in this country. We all know what the op means, but it's typical of the boards "intellectuals" to latch on to one word.

No one here can deny that family dynasties are permitted to exist due to a number of factors, such as party selection policies, a sense of entitlement and an electorate that is not very savvy. Unfortunately, I don't see this changing and the main reason for this is the electorate. As long as the people of Ireland votes "TD Junior" into daddy or mammy's seat, political parties will obviously continue with the practice. It's the same as parties who blatantly court celebratory candidates, which is another cynical practice. Like all we have to see is the following - http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/kenny-egan-brings-his-olympic-commitment-to-fine-gael-29995425.html. Come on!!

Quin_Dub

Maphisto wrote: »

I agree but I wouldn't limit it to business, how about someone with 15 or 20years nursing experience, AGS, Charities, or caring. Wouldn't we end up with some great politicians?

The system now seems to be that either they have only ever been in politics or they were teachers or lawyers.

Agree completely.. Was using the term "business" loosely to mean experience of working in the real world instead of going direct to politics...

Thinking about the upcoming local elections - People with a background in Public administration , Facilities mgmt , Civil engineering etc. alongside those in the SME space would all make for excellent Local councillors

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

techdiver wrote: »

As usual people jump on the somewhat inaccurate use of the word nepotism to describe what is endemic in this country. We all know what the op means, but it's typical of the boards "intellectuals" to latch on to one word.

No one here can deny that family dynasties are permitted to exist due to a number of factors, such as party selection policies, a sense of entitlement and an electorate that is not very savvy. Unfortunately, I don't see this changing and the main reason for this is the electorate. As long as the people of Ireland votes "TD Junior" into daddy or mammy's seat, political parties will obviously continue with the practice. It's the same as parties who blatantly court celebratory candidates, which is another cynical practice. Like all we have to see is the following - http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/kenny-egan-brings-his-olympic-commitment-to-fine-gael-29995425.html. Come on!!

not really. He used a word that has a pretty specific meaning that doesn't apply in this situation

If you're that worried about a Cllrs son or daughter running in an election don't vote for them. Or better yet, run yourself.

techdiver

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

not really. He used a word that has a pretty specific meaning that doesn't apply in this situation

If you're that worried about a Cllrs son or daughter running in an election don't vote for them. Or better yet, run yourself.

If you read the entire op, it is clear what his gripe is. In my opinion it's just being pedantic for posters to attack the op based on the literal reading of something.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

techdiver wrote: »

If you read the entire op, it is clear what his gripe is. In my opinion it's just being pedantic for posters to attack the op based on the literal reading of something.

His gripe is just as misplaced and stupid as his use of the word 'nepotism'.

techdiver

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

His gripe is just as misplaced and stupid as his use of the word 'nepotism'.

Why is his gripe misplaced so?

Do you disagree that "favouritism" is shown in the selection process and that voter stupidity is responsible for this practice continuing? In fact since many of the people in question still have family members active in the parties, it can be argued that there is nepotism employed in the selection process. His call was to reject the practice by not voting for these "dynasties" which is a valid argument.

Look at the last number of government front benches. How many of these people actually come from non political backgrounds or worked in the real world before moving into the family business.

Let me be clear the main group responsible for this is the electorate and until the Irish electorate demands more from their candidates apart from the correct surname this will never change.

Knex*

Talk about sensationalism.

Knex*

techdiver wrote: »

Why is his gripe misplaced so?

Do you disagree that "favouritism" is shown in the selection process and that voter stupidity is responsible for this practice continuing? In fact since many of the people in question still have family members active in the parties, it can be argued that there is nepotism employed in the selection process. His call was to reject the practice by not voting for these "dynasties" which is a valid argument.

Look at the last number of government front benches. How many of these people actually come from non political backgrounds or worked in the real world before moving into the family business.

Let me be clear the main group responsible for this is the electorate and until the Irish electorate demands more from their candidates apart from the correct surname this will never change.

The fact that you have that option makes the whole notion of nepotism ridiculous.

Guy:Incognito

techdiver wrote: »

Why is his gripe misplaced so?

Do you disagree that "favouritism" is shown in the selection process and that voter stupidity is responsible for this practice continuing? In fact since many of the people in question still have family members active in the parties, it can be argued that there is nepotism employed in the selection process. His call was to reject the practice by not voting for these "dynasties" which is a valid argument.

Look at the last number of government front benches. How many of these people actually come from non political backgrounds or worked in the real world before moving into the family business.

Let me be clear the main group responsible for this is the electorate and until the Irish electorate demands more from their candidates apart from the correct surname this will never change.

Refusing to vote for someone purely because of who their father/mother/brother/uncle/aunt is is stupid.

techdiver

This sums it up well.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90153428&postcount=7

"Well all my family are in politics so I thought I'd give it a go"

Guy:Incognito

techdiver wrote: »

This sums it up well.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90153428&postcount=7

My family were plumbers. I got bored in a quiet retail job and gave plumbing a go. Should I have been barred from becoming a plumber?


That's not everyones reason for getting in to it. What if he never thought hed like it but "giving it a go" led him to where he should have been all along?

techdiver

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Refusing to vote for someone purely because of who their father/mother/brother/uncle/aunt is is stupid.

Where did I say that? I was saying the opposite. Voting for them based on family name is stupid. I said we should demand more from a politician than just having the correct surname.

It's clear many people here are satisfied with the same old school club being on the ballot paper so. That's your prerogative. I contented that we should demand more!

Knex*

techdiver wrote: »

This sums it up well.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90153428&postcount=7

You and I certainly seem to have different interpretations of things beyond the word "nepotism".

Lots of people get into jobs because of their parents. Assess the candidate for who they themselves are, what their polices are, and what they can bring to the table.

Not because of who their relations are. That's just idiotic, on both accouts, be it voting them in or refusing to vote for them.

Guy:Incognito

techdiver wrote: »

Where did I say that? I was saying the opposite. Voting for them based on family name is stupid. I said we should demand more from a politician than just having the correct surname.

It's clear many people here are satisfied with the same old school club being on the ballot paper so. That's your prerogative. I contented that we should demand more!

"His call was to reject the practice by not voting for these "dynasties" which is a valid argument."

techdiver

Knex. wrote: »

You and I certainly seem to have different interpretations of things beyond the word "nepotism".

I didn't use the term in this regards.

Knex. wrote: »

Lots of people get into jobs because of their parents. Assess the candidate for who they themselves are, what their polices are, and what they can bring to the table.

Not because of who their relations are. That's just idiotic, on both accouts, be it voting them in or refusing to vote for them.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say too. The problem is, that in Ireland the electorate more often than not, do not do this.

wretcheddomain

Helen McEntee, ugh, beneath contempt.

Kermit.de.frog

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Nepotism is favoritism granted in politics or business to relatives.

Who exactly is showing favoritsim to someone running in an open free election?

Classice case of people looking for something to be outraged about when nothing exists

I think it's very valid to point out to people the incestuous nature of the Dáil and the number of relatives and dynasties in politics in this country.

I don't think it's right. I think the voters are to blame.

Michael Lowry's son is in politics now as well. I suppose you have no problem with Michael Lowry because they voted him in? I have a problem with it.

I have a problem with the mentality of those voters and I am trying to figure out why they vote the way they do.

Ultimately this clientelism culture here has contributed to the mess we are in now.

And if people can't see the link I despair.

Guy:Incognito

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Helen McEntee, ugh, beneath contempt.

Why, because you didn't vote for her?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_McEntee

"She has a degree in Economics, Politics and Law from Dublin City University. After finishing college in 2007, she worked for a subsidiary of Citibank. She went on to complete a Masters in journalism and media communications. In 2010, she began to work in Leinster House with her father, who was then an opposition TD. She also worked with her father at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine when he was appointed Minister of State."

Shes college educated in the job she has, as well as real world experience. What more would people like?

dark crystal

The problem is, many voters don't bother researching these people's qualifications for the job, their ideology or their achievements (or lack thereof). They see a familiar face, a familiar name and vote accordingly.

The McEntees and the Wyse's and the McFaddens and the Healy-Raes of the political world are well aware of this fact and simply capitalise on it. Nobody's forced to vote for them, so it's democratic in that sense alright, but it is, I feel, most definitely one of the more worrying aspects of Irish politics.

By all means, continue the dynastic line and vote for them if you believe they are genuinely the most qualified for the job, but this notion that these people weren't helped along by nepotism in some form, is a delusion.

bumper234

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I think it's very valid to point out to people the incestuous nature of the Dáil and the number of relatives and dynasties in politics in this country.

I don't think it's right. I think the voters are to blame.

Michael Lowry's son is in politics now as well. I suppose you have no problem with Michael Lowry because they voted him in? I have a problem with it.

I have a problem with the mentality of those voters and I am trying to figure out why they vote the way they do.

Ultimately this clientelism culture here has contributed to the mess we are in now.

And if people can't see the link I despair.

Do you think the Healy Rae's are good for the country?

Kermit.de.frog

No I don't.


I agree with this letter in the independent

Country needs to grow up and eliminate political nepotism



According to Ian O'Doherty (Irish Independent, April 28), Gabrielle McFadden's claim to a Dail seat is based on 'a promise' she made to succeed her late sister, Nicky McFadden TD, shortly before she died.

It would seem that a Dail seat is to be regarded as a family heirloom; a chattel that can be bequeathed with less formality than a legacy in a will, which is at least signed and witnessed; and that Ms McFadden is counting on the mystical inertia of a distracted electorate to fulfil her ambition.

There are 24 TDs in the Dail who are connected to family dynasties and 13 of these directly succeeded a close relative in winning a seat, reflecting a strong culture of nepotism embedded in the Oireachtas...

How can Ireland ever evolve as a transparent and ethical meritocracy when nepotism drives our political system? Would the public good, for example, be enhanced if county managers, senior public servants and heads of state organisations were allowed to slither their close relatives into privileged positions in order to succeed them?

....

I wonder would a limit on the number of years one can sit in the Dáil be appropriate - say 3 election cycles, 15 years.

KERSPLAT!

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

FFS

Mary O'Rourke's son to contest by-election

This follows hot on the heels of the sister of the TD that died in Athlone


Gabrielle McFadden confirms by-election run


And the by election following the tragic suicide in Co Meath of a TD which featured his daughter - who was elected.

Helen McEntee wins Meath East by-election


Oh the last one has never had a real job in her life other than working for her dad which of course makes her fully qualified to sit on an important parliamentary committee.

I'd urge people to reject this culture of entitlement and gombeen politics. Cynical party choice of candidates. Nothing has changed.

PLEASE do not support nepotism. There is a reason we are where we are:(

Helen McEntee has a degree in Economics, Politics and Law from DCU and a masters in Media and Communication. At 26 she probably knows more than most in the Dail

TimeToShine

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

Helen McEntee has a degree in Economics, Politics and Law from DCU and a masters in Media and Communication. At 26 she probably knows more than most in the Dail

As is the case with most college degrees it is almost irrelevant in the real world, and moreso in politics. Experience is what matters, not a piece of paper that proves you can learn and regurgitate material.

Pherekydes

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No I don't.


I agree with this letter in the independent

The letter writer is incorrect in a number of claims made:

Gabrielle McFadden has no "claim" on a Dáil seat.
If the seat is considered a family heirloom, that's down to the electors, not the McFadden family.
Relatives in the Dáil does not imply nepotism, as has previously been explained in this thread.
These relatives have not been "slithered" into positions in the Dáil; they were elected.


Maybe you would prefer to appoint Dáil deputies yourself?

Seaneh

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

FFS

Mary O'Rourke's son to contest by-election

This follows hot on the heels of the sister of the TD that died in Athlone


Gabrielle McFadden confirms by-election run


And the by election following the tragic suicide in Co Meath of a TD which featured his daughter - who was elected.

Helen McEntee wins Meath East by-election


Oh the last one has never had a real job in her life other than working for her dad which of course makes her fully qualified to sit on an important parliamentary committee.

I'd urge people to reject this culture of entitlement and gombeen politics. Cynical party choice of candidates. Nothing has changed.

PLEASE do not support nepotism. There is a reason we are where we are:(

Of the current candidates in the byelection from the Athlone area Gabrielle McFadden is the outstanding candidate. She's been involved in politics in Athlone and Westmeath for a long time and has done some great work in the local area, as did her sister before.

Voting for someone just because of who they are or who their family are would be stupid, voting against them for the same reasons would be equally as stupid.

I dislike FG, but I like Gabrielle.

bumper234

TimeToShine wrote: »

As is the case with most college degrees it is almost irrelevant in the real world, and moreso in politics. Experience is what matters, not a piece of paper that proves you can learn and regurgitate material.

And you gain experience how?

TimeToShine

bumper234 wrote: »

And you gain experience how?

Vocational work, not being voted in ahead of more experienced candidates. And I say that as someone who voted in the Meath East elections.

Kermit.de.frog

From what I see Fianna Fáil more seasoned representatives in Athlone are very peed off with the way this was done regarding Mary O'Rourke's son. And rightly so.

Political parties are grooming relatives because they know that the Irish electorate are not the most sophisticated bunch.

In doing this it's locking out other credible candidates as well.

bumper234

TimeToShine wrote: »

Vocational work, not being voted in ahead of more experienced candidates. And I say that as someone who voted in the Meath East elections.

Then people shouldn't vote for the candidate if they are not happy with the candidate.

Davarus Walrus

TimeToShine wrote: »

As is the case with most college degrees it is almost irrelevant in the real world, and moreso in politics. Experience is what matters, not a piece of paper that proves you can learn and regurgitate material.

I've an uncle involved in the politics game. The main skill required is having the patience of Job so you can deal with the many, many cranks who exist. Getting 80 emails a week from a constituent, abuse from a member of the public as you attend the funeral of your aunt, having someone calling to your door on Christmas Day to give out about not being able to cut turf.

I wouldn't do the job for twice the money.

Graces7

bumper234 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Healy-Rae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Healy-Rae

wondered how long it would take before this name came up...had a visit from michael and young johnnys wife...johnny is aiming for third generation

bumper234

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

I've an uncle involved in the politics game. The main skill required is having the patience of Job so you can deal with the many, many cranks who exist. Getting 80 emails a week from a constituent, abuse from a member of the public as you attend the funeral of your aunt, having someone calling to your door on Christmas Day to give out about not being able to cut turf.

I wouldn't do the job for twice the money.

Ah but big money, massive pensions, job for life blah blah blah rabble rabble rabble:D

SaveOurLyric

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So if the best candidate happens to be related to a former politician that had the seat, deliberately don't vote for them anyway ? Seems stupid.

Doesnt seem stupid at all. People dont vote for the best candidate - what is that anyway? They vote on whim, habit and ignorance. Relations of other politicians fit the bill for that dim but sizeable portion of the electorate.


All sons/daughters/brothers/sisters/nieces/nephews are automatically off my lst of candidates to vote for. Much better to make the break from hereditary Irish politics - the potential risk that a 'good' candidate is lost in this policy is so minute as to be a price well worth paying.

Boycott all hereditary candidates in this election and do your bit to progress Ireland towards being a real republic.

Graces7

bumper234 wrote: »

Do you think the Healy Rae's are good for the country?

no but like attracts like which is how and why they get in. seeing that living here
ie if someone likes ....words are difficult...ways that are not totally....

there was a thread on the kerry forum that showed the dynasty aspect clearly...a way of buying votes down through the generations..

some revealing things on youtube

ahnowbrowncow

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why, because you didn't vote for her?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_McEntee

"She has a degree in Economics, Politics and Law from Dublin City University. After finishing college in 2007, she worked for a subsidiary of Citibank. She went on to complete a Masters in journalism and media communications. In 2010, she began to work in Leinster House with her father, who was then an opposition TD. She also worked with her father at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine when he was appointed Minister of State."

Shes college educated in the job she has, as well as real world experience. What more would people like?

That looks suspiciously like nepotism to me.

bumper234

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Doesnt seem stupid at all. People dont vote for the best candidate - what is that anyway? They vote on whim, habit and ignorance. Relations of other politicians fit the bill for that dim but sizeable portion of the electorate.


All sons/daughters/brothers/sisters/nieces/nephews are automatically off my lst of candidates to vote for. Much better to make the break from hereditary Irish politics - the potential risk that a 'good' candidate is lost in this policy is so minute as to be a price well worth paying.

Boycott all relatives candidates in this election and do your bit to progress Ireland towards being a real republic.

No thanks.

Bubbaclaus

"Boycotting" voting for people because another member of their family was in the same profession

lol

Graces7

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

"Boycotting" voting for people because another member of their family was in the same profession

lol

depends on the integrity of the family member....in healy rae case apple does not fall far from the tree.

mikom

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/12/19/1226226/164985-kim-jong-il-and-kim-jong-un.jpg

Keep it up Ireland.......... you'll get there eventually.

Guy:Incognito

mikom wrote: »

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/12/19/1226226/164985-kim-jong-il-and-kim-jong-un.jpg

Keep it up Ireland.......... you'll get there eventually.

Yes, well when our long time tyrant of a dictator is done murdering people and shuffles off, we'll be sure not to let his son get elected.

mikom

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Yes, well when our long time tyrant of a dictator is done murdering people and shuffles off, we'll be sure not to let his son get elected.

Baby steps.

Davarus Walrus

mikom wrote: »

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/12/19/1226226/164985-kim-jong-il-and-kim-jong-un.jpg

Keep it up Ireland.......... you'll get there eventually.

Are you comparing a mature democracy in Western Europe to a stalinist dictatorship like North Korea?

techdiver

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Are you comparing a mature democracy in Western Europe to a stalinist dictatorship like North Korea?

<tongue_in_cheek>There's no comparison for sure, but to call Ireland "mature" ehhh.....! I'm not so sure.</tongue_in_cheek>

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

bumper234 wrote: »

Would you rather a politician with 25 years experience or a politician with 2 years experience?

Have to respond to this.

I would rather a politician with 23 years of 'real world' experience working like everyone else in the country does and 2 years working as a public representative rather than a 25 year institutionalised 'professional' politician who knows how to 'play the game' and only cares about getting re-elected.

sydthebeat

bumper234 wrote: »

But doesn't EVERYONE who works do it for a paycheck? Or do you work for free? And seriously? Someone with 25 years in politics must be doing something right otherwise they would be voted out at election time.

who said anything about doing it for nothing???

the idea of a political paycheck is to attract people who may take time out of their work. Its to recompense them for wages they would otherwise be earning... it is not, and never was designed to be, a continuous permanent paycheck job. Of course us irish have bastardised the system like we always do....
thats exactly what we should not be accepting anymore.

what can you not understand about career politicians being a BAD thing???

padd b1975

bumper234 wrote: »

Ah but big money, massive pensions, job for life blah blah blah rabble rabble rabble:D