breaking: Gerry Adams Arrested in connection to McConville - MOD WARNING First Post

Karl Stein

RandomName2 wrote: »

Even in Northern Ireland the acronym "IRA" became largely translated to "I ran away"

That was the OIRA not the PIRA who came about because the OIRA were unwilling or unable to protect Nationalists from being beaten, shot and ethnically cleansed.

The IRA rarely targeted the BA, either directly or indirectly.

Except for the many many many times they did. The British Army couldn't even travel by road in bandit country and even brought their rubbish out by helicopter.

Even the British Army themselves would pour scorn on your ridiculous appraisal of PIRA capabilities. Don't let that stop you making a fool of yourself though, it's mildly entertaining.

An internal British army document examining 37 years of deployment in Northern Ireland contains the claim by one expert that it failed to defeat the IRA. It describes the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups are described as "little more than a collection of gangsters".

bbc.co.uk

Quick, ring one of the world's most well equipped armies and tell them they were brought to stalemate by a bunch of rookies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRJGfe0k7rI

Jawgap

martinedwards wrote: »

as a side question.....

are any of the people involved in this discussion old enough to have been there?

I'm 47, I was.

CLOSEST i got to a bomb was about 150 yards from the one that took out the high park and the police authority offices in High St Belfast.

I was working in a restaurant and the RUC tied the Keep back tape to the gutter down pipe of the restaurant.

regularly heard machine gun fire late at night when leaving work colleagues home to Divis.

Oh yeah, and had a great uncle killed.

but not saying by whom as it'd just add fuel to one side or other.

I was working in a restaurant in Covent Garden when the bomb went off in The Sussex in 1992 - it was chaos, the police had just started clearing the area when it went off. F^^king scary afternoon! and everyone was jumpy for weeks......

bumper234

twowheelsgood wrote: »

And he's not necessarily trolling. The 'volunteers' would actually blame the police when people were blown up by their bombs. Surreal stuff.

For that particular i would say it definitely is.

ryan101

end of the road wrote: »

the cops didn't do their job and evacuate the people in time

yep it was nothing whatsoever to do with planting bombs designed to kill women and kids. It takes brave men to hide bombs among women and kids out shopping, real hero's

twowheelsgood

Magaggie wrote: »

…and the Irish anti nationalist lot here (who don't seem capable of condemning any wrongdoing by loyalists/the security forces) are nauseating...

There is little said about loyalists because there is no debate about them. They were murdering terrorists and nobody tries to defend them. Similarly with the paratroopers on bloody Sunday and other places.

There is a debate about republican violence because people are defending it, most recently with the charming suggestion that the police were to blame for IRA bombs.

JohnInDublin59

Karl Stein wrote: »

The vast majority of PIRA killings were members of the security forces (77%).

Unlike Loyalists*, whose MO was the sectarian murder of Catholic civilians, the PIRA primarily went after the apparatus of the state.


*Despite being fed intelligence Loyalist killings of Republicans numbered only 4%, the other 96% were primarily innocent unarmed Catholic civilians.

Wikipedia, ‘Provisional Irish Republican Army campaign 1969–97’, takes its figures from both the CAIN research project at the University of Ulster and ’Lost Lives’ (2004. Ed's David McKittrick, Seamus Kelters, Brian Feeney, Chris Thornton, David McVea)

The former calculates Provo killings as follows

Current or former UK police, army or prison officer – 928
Civilian - 621

The latter makes it 944 and 644 respectively

So for every three members of the security forces they killed, they killed two civilians

I see no ‘vast majority’ or ‘77%’

For the record, I don’t accept they were entitled to murder soldiers, police or prison officers any more than they were entitled to murder civilians.

And also for the record, yes the loyalist paramilitaries were a loathsome bunch of murderers too.

Shakespeare's Sister

twowheelsgood wrote: »

There is little said about loyalists because there is no debate about them. They were murdering terrorists and nobody tries to defend them. Similarly with the paratroopers on bloody Sunday and other places.

There is a debate about republican violence because people are defending it, most recently with the charming suggestion that the police were to blame for IRA bombs.

It's fashionable among quite a few Irish people to be against any hint of nationalism whatsoever though, and lump it in with "shinnerbot yadda yadda yadda".
Plus, the same people aren't people condemning the Ballymurphy massacre on the other thread (one person was even just whatabouting "Look at what the IRA did though" stuff) - because that'd probably be too unsophisticated and "ra-head" of them.
There are people (on all sides) whom I don't believe for a second condemn all violence and all sectarianism in the North.

Donkey Oaty

Magaggie wrote: »

It's fashionable among quite a few Irish people to be against any hint of nationalism whatsoever though

Is it? That's a good development. Unionists are nationalists too, remember - they're just nationalist about a different nation.

Replace it with a concern for civil rights and civic pride and the world will be a better place.

Shakespeare's Sister

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Is it? That's a good development. Unionists are nationalists too, remember - they're just nationalist about a different nation.

Nationalism in the context of Northern Ireland is what I mean specifically. I'm not nationalistic/patriotic myself, but I grew up in a place without conflict and a place where my community wasn't treated like dog-sh!t on shoes. I fully understand people being Northern nationalists under those circumstances, which unfortunately a lot of people down here are very ignorant of... and worse again, sneer at. Despite the fact they would have been treated like sh-t themselves had they lived up there.

ryan101

Magaggie wrote: »

It's fashionable among quite a few Irish people to be against any hint of nationalism whatsoever though.

Yes, from Devil Eire to CJH to Bertie Ahern to Jarry Adams, none of this "nationalism" has ever served us well.

Most people have woken up to the con job of 'nationalism' a long time ago

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson, 1775 - Always was, always will be.

It's all about power, control, and manipulation

Donkey Oaty

Magaggie wrote: »

I fully understand people being Northern nationalists under those circumstances, which unfortunately a lot of people down here are very ignorant of... and worse again, sneer at. Despite the fact they would have been treated like sh-t themselves had they lived up there.

Yes, I'm sure you're right about that.

Karl Stein

Does anyone else feel like they're trying to debate with a bunch of youngsters?

Happyman42

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Well if you are going to persist with your definition that terrorism is the use of force that instils terror, or however you choose to define it then I guess terrorism can be whatever you want it to be.

Exactly, and you want to use it as a pejorative term. Maggie Thatcher did it all the time....while secretly talking to them.

His threat was conditional on Adams being charged, not on the uncovering of dark forces within the PSNI

Adams and McGuinness unequivocally gave their support to the PSNI but underlined again the fact that further work needs to be done to make it a force for all the community. That means ridding it of 'dark forces'. If that doesn't happen they would be quite right to withdraw their support.

It would be grown up if you stopped playing silly buggers with what was said.

Karl Stein

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Is it? That's a good development.

I know you believe that makes you sound all intellectual and 'above it all' but it's quite the opposite tbh.

Nationalism has positives and negatives and everyone is nationalist to some degree or has tendencies that are indistinguishable from nationalism.

Get over yourself.

RobbingBandit

Given the headlines on rte.ie what would happen if Gerry Adams was assassinated or even if an attempt was made on his life would it lead to open conflict again?

Little CuChulainn

end of the road wrote: »

the cops didn't do their job and evacuate the people in time

That takes denial and fanaticism to a whole new level.

Magaggie wrote: »

It's fashionable among quite a few Irish people to be against any hint of nationalism whatsoever though, and lump it in with "shinnerbot yadda yadda yadda".
Plus, there aren't people condemning the Ballymurphy massacre on the other thread (one person was even just whatabouting "Look at what the IRA did though" stuff) - because that'd probably be too unsophisticated and "ra-head" of them.
There are people (on all sides) whom I don't believe for a second condemn all violence and all sectarianism in the North.

It's not nationalism people aren't against, it's fanaticism, as the comment I quoted above demonstrates. Add to that the "for us or against us" mentality of Sinn Fein followers and you have a dangerous group whose type are not without precedent. It's perfectly possible for a person to demand justice for the victims of both sides. It's not necessary to enforce the law based on a quota.

What's truly telling about the fanatics is that they don't try to defend people like Adams by claiming he did nothing, they say "prove it". It's petty sickening. There's people here who are no different to the Orangemen, they're just on the other side.

Lastlight.

The moment Gerry Adams was locked up for a few days, Sinn Fein just go into meltdown and Martin Mcguinness has been made to look stupid and very reactionary with his threats of Sinn Fein pulling away from support of the PSNI.

Now that Gerry is back out and home, everything is now fine.

Lastlight.

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Given the headlines on rte.ie what would happen if Gerry Adams was assassinated or even if an attempt was made on his life would it lead to open conflict again?

Why would it start a conflict? They still won't be getting what they want. It didn't work then and it isn't going to work now. I don't think too many rational people would be willing to do anything stupid if what you say happened.

ryan101

Magaggie wrote: »

That's not the nationalism I'm talking about. I'm talking about when people's identity is suppressed. See above.

Well so far in our history that's the only type we got, so we've had enough of that shyte thanks.

Donkey Oaty

Karl Stein wrote: »

I know you believe that makes you sound all intellectual and 'above it all' but it's quite the opposite tbh.

You make it sound like I just quoted Plato in the original Greek rather than express a simple view contrary to your own.

But my reply to you is this: Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν.

Jawgap

Karl Stein wrote: »

Does anyone else feel like they're trying to debate with a bunch of youngsters?

Yes, but we're happy to indulge you I the hope you might benefit from wiser, mature and more learned minds.......:D

Karl Stein

Magaggie wrote: »

I fully understand people being Northern nationalists under those circumstances, which unfortunately a lot of people down here are very ignorant of....

Indeed. What gets lost in all the chatter is the former day-to-day frustrations of being treated as second class citizens. My Mother was recently telling us that my Grandparents were refused access to a local sewer pipe forcing them to get a septic tank system (they were not wealthy people).

They were the only family in the row of rural houses who weren't hooked in and yep, you've guessed it, they were the only Catholics too.

I won't even get into the realities on my Father's side..

RandomName2

Seaneh wrote: »

What are you talking about?

The claim was "They (the PIRA) killed far more civilians than they (the PIRA) did military personal".

That is plainly false and fantasy, and no attempt at linguistic or logical acrobatics will change that.

Well that wasn't terribly clear.

35% of the IRA's victims were civilians
52% were security personnel (RUC & BA).

and an amazing 2.7% were loyalist paramilitaries

Shakespeare's Sister

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's not nationalism people aren't against, it's fanaticism

You're saying there are people who condemn violence, fanaticism and sectarianism - and criticism of the IRA/Sinn Féin doesn't mean they don't criticise all the rest. I fully agree. I would be one such person.

But unfortunately there are people here in Ireland who feel this compulsion not to say a word against loyalists and the security forces, to whitewash and whatabout atrocities carried out by the latter, to sneer at even moderate nationalists, and to pretty much deny the appalling treatment of catholics pre (and post) civil rights. Note their absence on the Ballymurphy thread.
I dunno... maybe they think it looks really sophisticated of them, and maybe they're afraid any bit of sympathy towards nationalism in the north might make people think they're a "Celtic jersey wearing scumbag yadda yadda". You know the Eoghan Harris/CCOB type I'm talking about. They're repulsive. The fact they criticise the IRA/Sinn Féin isn't the issue (I do myself), it's all the other stuff I've written above.

Karl Stein

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, but we're happy to indulge you I the hope you might benefit from wiser, mature and more learned minds.......:D

Quite the opposite I would have said.

I was born in the 70's in Co Derry.

Shakespeare's Sister

ryan101 wrote: »

Well so far in our history that's the only type we got, so we've had enough of that shyte thanks.

I'm referring to Northern Ireland. Read up on life before the Civil Rights era for an insight into the reality of life for catholics and you'll understand why they became defensive of their national identity. You'll find unbiased sources. The Troubles isn't all = republicans you know.

Donkey Oaty

Magaggie wrote: »

But unfortunately there are people here in Ireland who feel this compulsion not to say a word against loyalists and the security forces, to whitewash and whatabout atrocities carried out by the latter, to sneer at even moderate nationalists, and to pretty much deny the appalling treatment of catholics pre (and post) civil rights.

Anyone who holds those views is insane. Surely very few people are like that?

ryan101

Magaggie wrote: »

I'm referring to Northern Ireland. Read up on life before the Civil Rights era for an insight into the reality of life for catholics and you'll understand why they became defensive of their national identity. You'll find unbiased sources. The Troubles isn't all = republicans you know.

As if SF have any real time for Catholics, lol

efb

No going to be charged -BBC NEWS

Lastlight.

Magaggie wrote: »

I'm referring to Northern Ireland. Read up on life before the Civil Rights era for an insight into the reality of life for catholics and you'll understand why they became defensive of their national identity. You'll find unbiased sources. The Troubles isn't all = republicans you know.

That logic doesn't add up because the majority of Roman Catholics didn't murder or join any terrorist organisation.

Everyone who murdered anyone did it out of decisions they made. John Hume didn't join the PIRA and certainly didn't murder anyone.

The myth that the PIRA fought for civil rights has been debunked long ago, they certainly didn't care about murdering Roman Catholics.