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breaking: Gerry Adams Arrested in connection to McConville - MOD WARNING First Post

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    #1982
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Lastlight. wrote: »
    Who?

    15 posts and you've profiled me and have no idea what I'm talking about when I say 'Keith'?

    Keep going please, you're making it easier for the mods.


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    #1983
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It is quite sad that most republicans here care more about SF's standing in the polls than they do about justice.

    All we've been hearing are talks of the peace process and moving on but we all know were this a investigation into bloody Sunday these same people would be baying for blood.

    What this drama exposes quite clearly is the the inconstancy, if not downright hypocrisy of republicans. They perpetually call for the wrongs of the BA to be addressed and the wrong-doers in their ranks to face justice.

    But when it comes to the wrong-doers in their own ranks we see the very same attitude of defend our own regardless of what the might have done that they find so objectionable on the British side.


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    #1984
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Lastlight. wrote: »
    There is many good Republicans. It's just the maniacs like Karl Stein who will defend all IRA murders. Justice to the maniacs within Sinn Fein is irrelevant.
    I don't think they really care about justice, or about moving on really. I suppose it's best explained by simple tribalism. It's easy for them to identify and obsess over the crimes committed by the other "side' but they quickly lose interest in any investigations into IRA murders. We even have some republicans here dismissing the murder as unimportant or accusing those of us who are concerned as faking.

    I don't think they're being deliberately obtuse they just have no interest in discussing issues that would actually harm their political aspirations. Which I can understand but when dealing with murder it's inexcusable.


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    #1985
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Lastlight. wrote: »
    There is many good Republicans. It's just the maniacs like Karl Stein who will defend all IRA murders. Justice to the maniacs within Sinn Fein is irrelevant.

    of all the murders...this is a more justified one...she was far from innocent

    disappearing her was wrong and beyond defensible...but she choose to inform after being caught once and warned not to so


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    #1986
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    What this drama exposes quite clearly is the the inconstancy, if not downright hypocrisy of republicans. They perpetually call for the wrongs of the BA to be addressed and the wrong-doers in their ranks to face justice.

    But when it comes to the wrong-doers in their own ranks we see the very same attitude of defend our own regardless of what the might have done that they find so objectionable on the British side.

    I haven't heard or read one republican claim GA is innocent. If they have evidence, let's see it tested in a court of law.

    What I have heard is accusations of political policing, which is very possible here.
    We'll see what he is charged with and what he has to say when he is released.


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    #1987
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    of all the murders...this is a more justified one...she was far from innocent

    disappearing her was wrong and beyond defensible...but she choose to inform after being caught once and warned not to so

    There is no proof she was an informer and even if she was informers have a right to life.


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    #1988
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    What this drama exposes quite clearly is the the inconstancy, if not downright hypocrisy of republicans.

    You, unsurprisingly, have it bass ackwards.

    It was inconsistency that led to the troubles, it was inconsistency that sustained the troubles, and it is inconsistency that sees Adams in custody while the Bloody Sunday murderers are not.


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    #1989
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,081 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Lastlight. wrote: »
    No one is above the law and the British soldiers who murdered people could very well be charged in the future.


    british soldiers who murdered people in NI are above the law and won't be charged as the british government won't let that happen as such soldiers could reveal other "secrets"

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1990
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I haven't heard or read one republican claim GA is innocent. If they have evidence, let's see it tested in a court of law.

    What I have heard is accusations of political policing, which is very possible here.
    We'll see what he is charged with and what he has to say when he is released.
    It is quite clear from the contributions from republicans here and right up to the veiled treats of McGuinness that the shinners will not stand idly by (to borrow a phrase, never uttered) and see their man answer for his crimes.

    It is the very same "justice me arse, protect our own" attitude that the British are taking.


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    #1991
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    There is no proof she was an informer and even if she was informers have a right to life.

    So you believe the Boston tapes bit about Gerry being involved but not the bit about her being an informer.
    Kinda handy that.
    A warned informer should know the consequences of what they are doing in a war situation. It wasn't just the sanction of the IRA, it is the same in most war zones. Some want the death penalty for Snowden and Assange.


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    #1992
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    end of the road wrote: »
    british soldiers who murdered people in NI are above the law and won't be charged as the british government won't let that happen as such soldiers could reveal other "secrets"
    You are probably right. The British probably (not definitely) will never compel some, who should face justice , to do so.

    But neither will republicans ever give up their wrong-doers either.

    So what's the difference?


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    #1993
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,081 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    will britin be prepared to revel the full extent to low long it sank to during the troubles??

    no

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1994
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    It is quite clear from the contributions from republicans here and right up to the veiled treats of McGuinness that the shinners will not stand idly by (to borrow a phrase, never uttered) and see their man answer for his crimes.

    It is the very same "justice me arse, protect our own" attitude that the British are taking.

    Because it is seen as, and may very well be, political policing. that, quite rightly imo, puts any deal in crisis, as that was supposed to be one of the main things to be dealt with.


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    #1995
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    So you believe the Boston tapes bit about Gerry being involved but not the bit about her being an informer.
    Kinda handy that.
    A warned informer should know the consequences of what they are doing in a war situation. It wasn't just the sanction of the IRA, it is the same in most war zones. Some want the death penalty for Snowden and Assange.
    I don't believe the Boston tapes, they wouldn't stand up in court. But it was enough to arrest him and who knows maybe Bell let something slip that implicated him.

    Where is the proof she was an informer?
    The IRA said they had evidence the police said she wasn't, someone is lying.

    Even if she was an informer it doesn't invalidate her right to life. Someone still has to answer for that crime. And Mr. Adams should not be above the law just like any other citizen.


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    #1996
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,081 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The British will never agree to it, because they will be telling all those who adore the British defence forces that their idols are less than honourable men and women.
    That would be huge.
    yeah, could you imagine the daily fail articles and the drivel in the comments section

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1997
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    So you believe the Boston tapes bit about Gerry being involved but not the bit about her being an informer.
    Kinda handy that.
    This erroneous argument has been put many times. Colleagues in the IRA of Adams would be able to say definitively that he too was a member. They would know for certain.

    They could not know for certain that McConville was in the service of the British, they could only speculate.

    Undoubtedly, republicans believed she was. But only her handlers in the BA could know for certain that she was.


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    #1998
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    So what's the difference?

    What, in the name of muppetry, are you doing here if you think there's no difference? Are you trying to tell everyone they are equally to blame so that you may exercise some sort of failed paternalistic faux moral superiority?


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    #1999
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I don't believe the Boston tapes, they wouldn't stand up in court.

    Where is the proof she was an informer?
    The IRA said they had evidence the police said she wasn't, someone is lying.

    Even if she was an informer it doesn't invalidate her right to life. Someone still has to answer for that crime. And Mr. Adams should not be above the law just like any other citizen.

    If she wasn't an informer then you are saying that the alleged leader of the IRA ordered 12 people to take and kill her for kicks. And then disappeared her body which co-incidentally was standard proceedure (to scare others who might choose to inform) when dealing with informers.

    Where is there evidence of other killings like this or was this just a one off aberation in his alleged leadership?


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    #2000
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    bennyl10 wrote:
    A war zone.. okay..

    So you are actyally sayi.g her MURDER was okay, and her being stripped from her family, in front of them, was justtified, due to hearsay which has since been debunked?
    She could. Genuinelly have family here, can we have a little respect,?..

    Gerry will.probably be released fine and dandy, can we keep it tothat topic

    We cant say a word but this **** is okay?! Mods come on will ye..

    Whether I think it was ok or not, that is the reality of what faced informers if caught.


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    #2001
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    If she wasn't an informer then you are saying that the alleged leader of the IRA ordered 12 people to take and kill her for kicks. And then disappeared her body which co-incidentally was standard proceedure (to scare others who might choose to inform) when dealing with informers.

    Where is there evidence of other killings like this or was this just a one off aberation in his alleged leadership?

    I think they certainly thought she was an informer, but as another poster said before me there was no way they could have known for certain.

    All this is irrelevant as whether she was or wasn't an informer does not validate her murder.


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    #2002
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,081 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Lastlight. wrote: »
    There is many good Republicans. It's just the maniacs like Karl Stein who will defend all IRA murders. Justice to the maniacs within Sinn Fein is irrelevant.


    lol, just lol, what a load of nonsense, Karl Stein isn't a maniac and hasn't defended any murders of innocent people, stop making up stuff and telling lies

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #2003
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    What, in the name of muppetry, are you doing here if you think there's no difference? Are you trying to tell everyone they are equally to blame so that you may exercise some sort of failed paternalistic faux moral superiority?
    It is a simple observation.

    Republicans have not and I think will not given up any of their "soldiers" who did wrong (Kingsmill for example)

    The BA (probably) won't give up their soldiers who did wrong either.

    So again, what is the difference?


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    #2004
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,081 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    What this drama exposes quite clearly is the the inconstancy, if not downright hypocrisy of republicans. They perpetually call for the wrongs of the BA to be addressed and the wrong-doers in their ranks to face justice.

    But when it comes to the wrong-doers in their own ranks we see the very same attitude of defend our own regardless of what the might have done that they find so objectionable on the British side.
    the BA vermin who murdered innocent civilians were agents of the british state and their actions were carried out on behalf of the british government

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #2005
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I think they certainly thought she was an informer, but as another poster said before me there was no way they could have known for certain.
    .

    How do you or the other poster know they could not be certain?


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    #2006
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    end of the road wrote: »
    the BA vermin who murdered innocent civilians were agents of the british state and their actions were carried out on behalf of the british government
    And republicans who murdered innocent civilians were agents (unauthorised) of the Irish republic and their actions were carried out on behalf of the Irish people (against their wishes)

    And what does this have to do with my post?


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    #2007
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    How do you or the other poster know they could not be certain?

    Why does it matter? It's murder anyway.


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    #2008
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    So again, what is the difference?

    The British/Unionists pretended they were policing a conflict when they were really fighting a dirty war that they themselves were responsible for causing. Those fighting against it were described as terrorists. British/Unionists = good guys and Republicans/Nationalists = bad guys is what fools were led to believe.

    Short of getting the crayons out and sitting with you I can't make it any more simple.


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    #2009
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,081 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    It is the very same "justice me arse, protect our own" attitude that the British are taking.

    only the british are taking that attitude, and would have taken it either way in relation to NI whatever happened, as they don't want their soldiers to pay for their crimes, as it would cause the public to see the BA for what it is, ultimately meaning instead of charities and donations mostly helping the injoured the government would end up having to pay out more to help them, currently charities take up a lot of the slack saving the government money, and the reputation of the army is squeaky clean in the minds of the populous, and anyone who questions them is labeled an extremist or terrorist, and in some cases arrested, and any group that tries to expoze such crimes or protest against the BA are banned, and their members arrested if they protest anyway

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #2010
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    How do you or the other poster know they could not be certain?
    Do you think they would wait to be certain before they would act? Personally I think a little more than suspicion would be enough for them.

    But it doesn't matter. The original point was that a colleague of some one in a guerrilla army would know that this colleague was there, they could be far less certain about who was in the ranks opposing them. Hence the argument that the testimony to one is as credible as the testimony to the other is flawed.


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    #2011
    Lady Spangles
    Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭Lady Spangles


    end of the road wrote: »
    only the british are taking that attitude, and would have taken it either way in relation to NI whatever happened, as they don't want their soldiers to pay for their crimes, as it would cause the public to see the BA for what it is, ultimately meaning instead of charities and donations mostly helping the injoured the government would end up having to pay out more to help them, currently charities take up a lot of the slack saving the government money, and the reputation of the army is squeaky clean in the minds of the populous, and anyone who questions them is labeled an extremist or terrorist, and in some cases arrested, and any group that tries to expoze such crimes or protest against the BA are banned, and their members arrested if they protest anyway

    The British people are capable of independent thought and speech you know. We're not all troop worshiping, flag waving monarchists camping out on the Mall on the off-chance of meeting the Queen. Most are perfectly aware of the faults of the army; realise perfectly well that atrocities have been committed and would like to see redress where it is due. I am only one of them. But you must understand that this case, of Jean McConville, also deserves to be looked into and fully investigated.


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