breaking: Gerry Adams Arrested in connection to McConville - MOD WARNING First Post

twowheelsgood

Karl Stein wrote: »

The British/Unionists pretended they were policing a conflict when they were really fighting a dirty war that they themselves were responsible for causing. Those fighting against it were described as terrorists. British/Unionists = good guys and Republicans/Nationalists = bad guys is what fools were led to believe.

Short of getting the crayons out and sitting with you I can't make it any less simple.

Crayons are unnecessary. What you could do is answer the point I put, rather that trot out a pre-cooked (and irrelevant to the point put) bit of rhetoric.

I'll try and put the question to you even simpler. Why do you expect the BA to give up those in their ranks who did wrong if republicans will not do likewise?

end of the road

twowheelsgood wrote: »

And republicans who murdered innocent civilians were agents (unauthorised) of the Irish republic and their actions were carried out on behalf of the Irish people (against their wishes)

wrong, the irish government didn't sanction the actions of the IRA, they were as you said unauthorized, the BA on the other hand were send to NI by the british government and their actions as a form of a police force were sanctioned by the british government

twowheelsgood

end of the road wrote: »

only the british are taking that attitude ....

Really? So perhaps you can provide me with a list (of even one!) of republicans who were taken to task by their own for their criminal actions?

Karl Stein

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Why do you expect the BA to give up those in their ranks who did wrong if republicans will not do likewise?

I don't. I expect the Police Service of NI to go after people involved in the conflict with equal vigour.

At the moment Adams is in custody on tenuous evidence while the Bloody Sunday killers are not. Why?

Why is it that that is the case twowheelsgood?

WilyCoyote

The Brit media/politicians were the first to say "Sinn Fein/IRA". How come none of our scribblers of politicians didn't speak of the the "Unionists/British Army".
Surely there is more truth in the latter.

Scaglietti

People saying adams was involved isn't evident and in my opinion the timing isn't coincidental!

twowheelsgood

end of the road wrote: »

wrong, the irish government didn't sanction the actions of the IRA, they were as you said unauthorized, the BA on the other hand were send to NI by the british government and their actions as a form of a police force were sanctioned by the british government

The IRA, for a time, considered themselves to the legitimate government of Ireland, but that is irrelevant.

Once again, why should the British voluntary give up their soldiers who did wrong when republicans will not do likewise?

porsche959

Karl Stein wrote: »

I don't. I expect the Police Service of NI to go after people involved in the conflict with equal vigour.

At the moment Adams is in custody on tenuous evidence while the Bloody Sunday killers are not. Why?

Why is it that that is the case twowheelsgood?

Also re 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings, certain files disppeared from Chief State Solicitors office

Lady Spangles

WilyCoyote wrote: »

The Brit media/politicians were the first to say "Sinn Fein/IRA". How come none of our scribblers of politicians didn't speak of the the "Unionists/British Army".
Surely there is more truth in the latter.

Because Unionists generally have nothing to do with the British Army. There is no "Unionist" squadron. Unlike the IRA, which is pretty much a private army with very intimate links to a single political party. And I think you'll find many who say "Sinn Fein/IRA", it's hardly unique to the British.

twowheelsgood

Karl Stein wrote: »

I don't. I expect the Police Service of NI to go after people involved in the conflict with equal vigour.

At the moment Adams is in custody on tenuous evidence while the Bloody Sunday killers are not. Why?

Why is it that that is the case twowheelsgood?

The call from republicans is not to go after other wrong-doers as well, it is to release Adams.

porsche959

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Why do you expect the BA to give up those in their ranks who did wrong if republicans will not do likewise?

Is that a serious question? I dont think it is.

Scaglietti

twowheelsgood wrote: »

The IRA, for a time, considered themselves to the legitimate government of Ireland, but that is irrelevant.

Once again, why should the British voluntary give up their soldiers who did wrong when republicans will not do likewise?

Because unionists will not do likewise

twowheelsgood

porsche959 wrote: »

Is that a serious question? I dont think it is.

Yes it is a serious question. Do you have an answer?

Karl Stein

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Because Unionists generally have nothing to do with the British Army.

Except that's completely wrong as the UDR regiment of the BA was made up primarily of Union/loyalists that supplied weapons, training and intelligence to loyalist murder gangs.

That's completely ignoring that the B-Special needs and the RUC were instruments of Unionist/British violence and sectarianism.

twowheelsgood

Scaglietti wrote: »

Because unionists will not do likewise

Well I would say the British rather than unionists, but you are right, they won't.

Scaglietti

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Well I would say the British rather than unionists, but you are right, they won't.

I have another word for them

osarusan

Karl Stein wrote: »

I don't. I expect the Police Service of NI to go after people involved in the conflict with equal vigour.

At the moment Adams is in custody on tenuous evidence while the Bloody Sunday killers are not. Why?

Why is it that that is the case twowheelsgood?

Fair post.

There was a post earlier suggesting a general amnesty (along the lines of a truth and reconciliation amnesty as we have seen in other countries) which you thanked, as did I.

Are you (and from what you know, republicans in general) more in favour of an amnesty for those involved in the troubles in NI, or do you prefer that the PSNI (or whoever has jurisdiction) actually do go after people involved with vigour?

Lady Spangles

Karl Stein wrote: »

Except that's completely wrong as the UDR regiment of the BA was made up primarily of Union/loyalists that supplied weapons, training and intelligence to loyalist murder gangs.

That's completely ignoring that the B-Special needs and the RUC were instruments of Unionist/British violence and sectarianism.

On the subject of the UDR, several members were convicted of murder, manslaughter and other criminal offences, so it's not like they were under rug swept. Also, I believe they're disbanded now, anyway. The B-Specials were disbanded in the late 60s.

Karl Stein

Lady Spangles wrote: »

On the subject of the UDR, several members were convicted of murder, manslaughter and other criminal offences, so it's not like they were under rug swept. Also, I believe they're disbanded now, anyway. The B-Specials were disbanded in the late 60s.

So your claim that Unionists had nothing to do with the British Army is demonstrably wrong.

Many of the B-Special needs were re-employed in the UDR. Many of them had to get help filling out the forms to join because they were illiterate.

Lady Spangles

Karl Stein wrote: »

So your claim that Unionists had nothing to do with the British Army is demonstrably wrong.

Many of the B-Special needs were re-employed in the UDR. Many of them had to get help filling out the forms to join because they were illiterate.

That is only one small aspect of a bloody big army, though. It's not like the UUP/DUP/Whoever have the entire army at their personal disposal and the entire BA doesn't exist to only achieve their aims (quite the contrast to the IRA, who were acting for one party). All countries have a right to defend themselves, and Britain is no different.

However having said that, it's perfectly clear the army (in general) behaves like a pack of rabid animals. They are not, should not, be treated as though they are above the law. All this painting up every British person as a brainless supporter of these bodies does you no favours.

pO1Neil

youtube com/watch?v=1BoqYJmAhEg tens of thousands show their support for Gerry Adams. He's the new Nelson Mandela. And the broader Republicans stand behind our Mandela like leader.

Karl Stein

osarusan wrote: »

Are you (and from what you know, republicans in general) more in favour of an amnesty for those involved in the troubles

I honestly think that's up to the families of people who were killed, especially innocents, and not me. If they want an amnesty or justice (whatever justice can be provided so long after the fact) then I'd be supportive.

do you prefer that the PSNI (or whoever has jurisdiction) actually do go after people involved with vigour?

As above, if that's what those who lost loved ones want then work away. I just want it done apolitically.

pO1Neil

The Blueshirts love child Michael Collins could not bring peace to this island, he made life hell for the Catholics in the North after he had Henry Wilson killed.
Fiana Fail's lovechild Eamon (wade through blood) De Valera started a war they killed more Irishmen in the space of 9 months than the whole 30 years of the North war yet he was voted twice a president of this country.

For some reason our violence was okay & in many cases rewarded, yet "see these different people up here in the North their violence is bad" The Provo's had more of a mandate than the men of 1916.

Without Gerry Mandela Adams the peace process could fall apart.

DubVelo

Could there be some angle to deliberately stirring up NI this summer ahead of the Scottish independence vote?

Karl Stein

Lady Spangles wrote: »

That is only one small aspect of a bloody big army, though.

You moved the goalposts. You stated:

Lady Spangles

Unionists generally have nothing to do with the British Army.

I've shown that to be wrong. You simply cannot hermetically seal Unionism from the BA and Loyalist killers no more than you can SF from the PIRA.

WilyCoyote

DubVelo wrote: »

Could there be some angle to deliberately stirring up NI this summer ahead of the Scottish independence vote?

Anything could be planned. The fact, that at the height of the Troubles, there were more BMWs and Mercs (per capita) in the Six Counties than in any country outside Germany excluding Monaco ......... mostly owned by people involved in security ........ could lead an innocent mind to think that, if the Troubles quietened down and the overtime was cut ....... the HP payments would take a hammering .......
Now make what you like out of this!

Karl Stein

Lady Spangles wrote: »

you must understand that this case, of Jean McConville, also deserves to be looked into and fully investigated.

You must understand that Jean McConville's case is being rigorously investigated while other cases, like those of the BA soldiers who murdered a Mother of eight children in Ballymurphy, are not.

pO1Neil

Karl Stein wrote: »

You must understand that Jean McConville's case is being rigorously investigated while other cases, like those of the BA soldiers who murdered a Mother of eight children in Ballymurphy, are not.

Exactly. The message being sent out is that a mother with eight kids is some how less significant than a mother of 9 or 10

WilyCoyote

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Because Unionists generally have nothing to do with the British Army. There is no "Unionist" squadron. Unlike the IRA, which is pretty much a private army with very intimate links to a single political party. And I think you'll find many who say "Sinn Fein/IRA", it's hardly unique to the British.

No Unionist death squad? No Unionist affiliated ex-Brit Army losers that wanted a rush? If the Unionists didn't like the wat the UFF, UVA, UDF etc did their business - they should have condemned them outright. Not after some atrocity - to garner public opinion.
BTW, have you changed your IP?

DEFTLEFTHAND

If the para Nationalists did stir up again what is there at the moment? Most of the old guard would be out of it at this stage I'd imagine. I always heard the new generation were more inclined to be involved in organised crime with links to the likes of RIRA in Dublin, for instance extorting dealers or actively dealing themselves.

I've heard first hand that the Loyalists turned to crime, the UDA apparently still run a protection racket in the Shankhill road area, they prey on their own kind. The late Billy Wright's LVF are drug dealers, most recently linked with a Catholic drug gang based in Newry, this shows that any past principles are out the window, They're thugs and it's a business, political persuasions don't mean much in that world.