breaking: Gerry Adams Arrested in connection to McConville - MOD WARNING First Post

.jacksparrow.

Gatling wrote: »

Proof please ,please ,please provide some real proof of this,

Links variable genuine links ,

Something ,

Because you's have posted some stupid ****



Speaking of Strabane how many people did the IRA shoot exactly while on the subject

Well I won't be quoting the Boston tapes, a dead persons testimony that's for sure.

MonsterCookie

keeponhurling wrote: »

I'm curious about the posters who want all combatants of the troubles to be pursued and jailed if guilty, such as Adams in this alleged case.

I'm assuming that you are part of the 5.6% who voted No to the Good Friday Agreement in 1998? As it was simple words, yes or no to the GFA, there wasn't an a la carte option.

Now I voted Yes myself, main reason being maintaining the ceasefires and moving on. Obviously the prisoner releases and amnesty was essential to both sides to agree to it. Also, if the North is happy with it, that's enough for me.
However I do appreciate that as all parties in the republic advocated a yes vote, some of the No side may have felt somewhat without a voice.
also I remember there was a strong tide of emotion at the time, so a no vote was almost seen as No to Peace, and you were seen as either extremist republican or extremist unionist.

So are you guys people who voted Yes in 1998 but have since changed your minds on it, and regret that you didn't vote No? Or have always been opponents of the GFA ?

That's a fair question. However, my over riding sense is that I'd like to know if GA was involved in this or other murders. He is a prominent politician and for that reason I think the voting public deserves to know. He also deserves the opportunity to clear his name, if he is innocent...keep in mind that this could work out in his favour.

Are you suggesting that the victims family's shouldn't be supported in seeking to know the truth?

keeponhurling

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

you're assuming too much I was a child in 98.

Sure and that's fair enough, probably I'm a bit older than you.

But you have to know that for about 30 years prior to that, the only news we ever heard from the North was if bombings, killings and all sorts of atrocities.

In 1994 and 1997 then we heard news of ceasefires in both sides. Them in 1998 we were presented with a Peace Agreement to end the Troubles.

However imperfect the document might have been, I hope that explains why over 94% of the voters approved it
It was a big thing to see the likes if Trimble, Hume and Adams all agreeing on something.

.jacksparrow.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

British soldiers are legitimate targets but IRA volunteers are not? Clearly double standards.



Locking them up would suffice.

So you agree shooting them dead isn't.

How many British soldiers are locked up for killing innocent Irish civilians ?

Oh that's right, ZERO.

Show me your outrage.

Gatling

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Well I won't be quoting the Boston tapes, a dead persons testimony that's for sure.

Come on back up your statement

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Both were legitimate targets. The double standard is applying the law to one and not the other

I disagree. Neither were legitimate targets.

You didn't read the conversation we were engaging in.

keeponhurling

MonsterCookie wrote: »

That's a fair question. However, my over riding sense is that I'd like to know if GA was involved in this or other murders. He is a prominent politician and for that reason I think the voting public deserves to know. He also deserves the opportunity to clear his name, if he is innocent...keep in mind that this could work out in his favour.

Are you suggesting that the victims family's shouldn't be supported in seeking to know the truth?

Ok. So you want the truth for the victims' families, rather than convictions as such ?

That seems reasonable, but naturally if there is a threat of prosecution, people who have information will keep this to themselves.

Personally I think a truth commission is the way to go, but this has already been painted as a "shinner idea" so will never happen. Plus it would have to be both sides, republican victims deserve closure too, and the British would never cooperate.

twowheelsgood

Happyman42 wrote: »

Turn it the other way for a minute here, if a soldier in the British army was being tried (a rare thing I know) how much credence would be given to the an accusatory testimony given by somebody who had deserted from that army?


That is the value of the Boston tapes, that is why GA is in custody for so long, because the tapes (being hearsay from sources hostile to the peace process and GA) are not enough. A decent defence counsel would make mince of them.
In fact, if Adams is released without charge then Moloney and McIntyre have unwittingly done him and Sinn Fein a great service.

My point was not about the credibility of the tapes. I was pointed out the flawed argument that suggests a combatants intelligence on his enemies would be as good as on his comrades. It would be like arguing that a BA officers opinion as to who was in the IRA was as reliable as his knowledge on what went on his own ranks.

NipNip

Personally I think the PSNI is currently taking the can-opener to the can of worms.

Ignorant etc.

I have very strong feelings with regards to this issue, but I'm more interested in answers to questions I have, so I'm not going to go into detail on them at the moment.

If someone could answer the following for me I would be very grateful.

1. Gerry Adams is being questioned in Antrim. However, evidence shows that Jean McConville was killed in Louth, which is in a separate jurisdiction. Therefore, if there is any case to be answered isn't this a particularly convoluted situation? Where could/would he be tried? Would he be tried for kidnapping in Belfast and unlawful killing in Louth? Could he serve time in both jurisdictions?

2. Maybe I am wrong, but doesn't the law, I would imagine both sides of the border, state that anyone is entitled to a fair trial? I would imagine that (a) it would be very difficult to find twelve people on this island who don't have some sort of preconceived idea of Gerry Adams, whether positive or negative, which would potentially prejudice them; (b) being honest, he has already to a large extent been tried by the media. Although, for obvious libel and slander reasons they have been careful how they have written this story over the years, journalists have consistently linked him to this and other events. If I'm correct on the fair trial rule, couldn't a clever lawyer simply have this case thrown out?

As stated, I have very strong feelings on this case, but I think it better to keep them to myself for the moment as it is really the questions above that interest me most.

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I disagree. Neither were legitimate targets.

You didn't read the conversation we were engaging in.

So what was the conversation meant to be with a starter like this?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90227910&postcount=2061

Iwasfrozen

keeponhurling wrote: »

Sure and that's fair enough, probably I'm a bit older than you.

But you have to know that for about 30 years prior to that, the only news we ever heard from the North was if bombings, killings and all sorts of atrocities.

In 1994 and 1997 then we heard news of ceasefires in both sides. Them in 1998 we were presented with a Peace Agreement to end the Troubles.

However imperfect the document might have been, I hope that explains why over 94% of the voters approved it
It was a big thing to see the likes if Trimble, Hume and Adams all agreeing on something.

I support the vast majority of the good Friday agreement overall but I cannot stomach the amnesties given to paramilitaries.

Were this 98 I'm not sure what way I'd vote. Peace is nice but at what cost? At what point are we prepared to sacrifice our morals for peace?

Even if Gerry is guilty of IRA membership the most he can get is 2 years. I find that hard to stomach.

MonsterCookie

keeponhurling wrote: »

Ok. So you want the truth for the victims' families, rather than convictions as such ?

That seems reasonable, but naturally if there is a threat of prosecution, people who have information will keep this to themselves.

Personally I think a truth commission is the way to go, but this has already been painted as a "shinner idea" so will never happen. Plus it would have to be both sides, republican victims deserve closure too, and the British would never cooperate.

The truth is the minimum we should expect or seek. Convictions etc are a whole separate argument IMO.

.jacksparrow.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I support the vast majority of the good Friday agreement overall but I cannot stomach the amnesties given to paramilitaries.

Were this 98 I'm not sure what way I'd vote. Peace is nice but at what cost? At what point are we prepared to sacrifice our morals for peace?

So you would rather a return to the old days ?

Happyman42

MonsterCookie wrote: »

That's a fair question. However, my over riding sense is that I'd like to know if GA was involved in this or other murders.

The danger here is what damage is done trying to find out.
And it is complicated by the fact of who Adams is and what Adams is doing now.
To my mind he is holding together a huge range of disparate opinions (that is his major contribution to all of the people of this island, even if Unionists and Loyalists repudiate that)

I am not saying for one minute that the PNSI should ignore evidence but they must look at the quality of that evidence before proceeding with damaging and futile missions. The PSNI and the former RUC are and where players in the conflict too, after all.
And to be frank, the McConville family need to be told the harsh truth that their case has no primacy, no place on a chart of victimhood, because there isn't one.
If there are no charges somebody in power has to push for a truth and reconciliation process that will address the McConville's plight and the needs of all those who are seeking answers.
The GFA is in crisis, that is what we should be worried about,not what GA did or might have done, throw it out and we are back to instability, violence and the dark days. It is a fragile thing.

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I support the vast majority of the good Friday agreement overall but I cannot stomach the amnesties given to paramilitaries.

Were this 98 I'm not sure what way I'd vote. Peace is nice but at what cost? At what point are we prepared to sacrifice our morals for peace?

You want to go back to the old days to decide if the cost is enough? Anyone with a real understanding of what it was like in the 60's, 70's, 80's & 90's would not be saying that

Iwasfrozen

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

So you would rather a return to the old days ?

No, the present isn't nice but the past was worse.

.jacksparrow.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, the present isn't nice but the past was worse.

Exactly!!

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You want to go back to the old days to decide if the cost is enough? Anyone with a real understanding of what it was like in the 60's, 70's, 80's & 90's would not be saying that

We're looking back from 2014 at 16 years of peace since the gfa. Were this 98 there is no way to tell if it will be successful or not.

If not we've just granted clemency to criminals for nothing.

.jacksparrow.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We're looking back from 2014 at 16 years of peace since the gfa. Were this 98 there is no way to tell if it will be successful or not.

If not we've just granted clemency to criminals for nothing.

Exactly 16 years of peace.

Do you want 16 years of violence.

No, you don't.

MonsterCookie

Happyman42 wrote: »

The danger here is what damage is done trying to find out.
And it is complicated by the fact of who Adams is and what Adams is doing now.
To my mind he is holding together a huge range of disparate opinions (that is his major contribution to all of the people of this island, even if Unionists and Loyalists repudiate that)

I am not saying for one minute that the PNSI should ignore evidence but they must look at the quality of that evidence before proceeding with damaging and futile missions. The PSNI and the former RUC are and where players in the conflict too, after all.
And to be frank, the McConville family need to be told the harsh truth that their case has no primacy, no place on a chart of victimhood, because there isn't one.
If there are no charges somebody in power has to push for a truth and reconciliation process that will address the McConville's plight and the needs of all those who are seeking answers.
The GFA is in crisis, that is what we should be worried about,not what GA did or might have done, throw it out and we are back to instability, violence and the dark days. It is a fragile thing.

We do need a better construct to establish the truth. This is one of the failings of the GFA.

In terms of a return to violence...I believe SF have a huge responsibility to put the fragile peace ahead of anything else. I view their current stance as threatening (or they have left it open to interpretation in which case they should be much more precise in their language).

Iwasfrozen

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Exactly 16 years of peace.

Do you want 16 years of violence.

No, you don't.

There was no way of knowing back in 98 if the deal would be successful.

Gatling

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Exactly 16 years of peace.

Do you want 16 years of violence.

No, you don't.

16 years on pipe bombs ,killings and now threats of were going to go back to the bomb

.jacksparrow.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There was no way of knowing back in 98 if the deal would be successful.

Well it has been.

R P McMurphy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I support the vast majority of the good Friday agreement overall but I cannot stomach the amnesties given to paramilitaries.

Were this 98 I'm not sure what way I'd vote. Peace is nice but at what cost? At what point are we prepared to sacrifice our morals for peace?

Even if Gerry is guilty of IRA membership the most he can get is 2 years. I find that hard to stomach.

You must be really disgusted then that members of the british army got away with murder on this island and will never see the inside of a cell for those crimes.

Iwasfrozen

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Well it has been.

Hindsight is 20:20

.jacksparrow.

Gatling wrote: »

16 years on pipe bombs ,killings and now threats of were going to go back to the bomb

By Sinn Fein?

umop.episdn

If (and I stress the 'if' ) Gerry is charged, tried & found guilty.....do his supporters pick up arms again I wonder?

.jacksparrow.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hindsight is 20:20

Doesn't matter, we have peace now, is that not enough for you ?

.jacksparrow.

umop.episdn wrote: »

If (and I stress the 'if' ) Gerry is charged, tried & found guilty.....do his supporters pick up arms again I wonder?

Jesus h Christ.