breaking: Gerry Adams Arrested in connection to McConville - MOD WARNING First Post

Jawgap

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

I have very strong feelings with regards to this issue, but I'm more interested in answers to questions I have, so I'm not going to go into detail on them at the moment.

If someone could answer the following for me I would be very grateful.

1. Gerry Adams is being questioned in Antrim. However, evidence shows that Jean McConville was killed in Louth, which is in a separate jurisdiction. Therefore, if there is any case to be answered isn't this a particularly convoluted situation? Where could/would he be tried? Would he be tried for kidnapping in Belfast and unlawful killing in Louth? Could he serve time in both jurisdictions?

the evidence shows she was buried in Louth, not necessarily murdered there - plus she was kidnapped in Belfast and in all probability held against her will there and tortured there - so there's charges of kidnap and offences against the person as well as conspiracy to be investigated in that jurisdiction before you get to the poor woman's murder.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

2. Maybe I am wrong, but doesn't the law, I would imagine both sides of the border, state that anyone is entitled to a fair trial? I would imagine that (a) it would be very difficult to find twelve people on this island who don't have some sort of preconceived idea of Gerry Adams, whether positive or negative, which would potentially prejudice them; (b) being honest, he has already to a large extent been tried by the media. Although, for obvious libel and slander reasons they have been careful how they have written this story over the years, journalists have consistently linked him to this and other events. If I'm correct on the fair trial rule, couldn't a clever lawyer simply have this case thrown out?

Possibly - there's a strong argument to be made that he would not get a fair trial for whole variety of reasons - publicity, the status of the BC tapes, the lack of physical evidence etc. Any case is likely to be largely based on circumstantial evidence - it's not impossible to secure a prosecution, but the odds are very much in his favour.

As for juries, I think the recent Anglo case proved that juries are often hugely under-estimated in their ability to hear and weight evidence objectively before arriving at a decision.

You won't seem him prosecuted for murder, but he could, imo, end up facing a conspiracy charge of some description (probably not for murder, but for unlawful detention or something like that).

In all probability, he'll walk free but emboldened.

EDIT: I wouldn't rule out a civil claim being lodged against him and others........

Second EDIT: - Just re-read the reports on her inquest, it seems she was walked, barefoot, to her grave before being shot in the back of the head........

Gatling

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Jesus h Christ.

Ohhhh yeah he's innocent


Wink wink nudge nudge

NipNip

umop.episdn wrote: »

If (and I stress the 'if' ) Gerry is charged, tried & found guilty.....do his supporters pick up arms again I wonder?

This would be my primary concern!

wazky

umop.episdn wrote: »

If (and I stress the 'if' ) Gerry is charged, tried & found guilty.....do his supporters pick up arms again I wonder?

Some people really have no clue, the type of people who would in position to be picking up arms and such regard Adams and Sinn Fein with contempt. They are regarded as traitors for distancing themselves from the hardline Republicans.

It's laughable how out of touch some posters are.

.jacksparrow.

wazky wrote: »

Some people really have no clue, the type of people who would in position to be picking up arms and such regard Adams and Sinn Fein with contempt. They are regarded as traitors for distancing themselves from the hardline Republicans.

It's laughable how out of touch some posters are.

Head, brick wall.

Jawgap

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Yes, she was working for the British Army

There is no evidence, information or intelligence of any kind which refers to or emanated from Mrs Jean McConville prior to 2 January 1973. She is not recorded as having been an agent at any time. She was an innocent woman who was abducted and murdered.

Conclusion to the Report into the complaint by James and Michael McConville regarding the police investigation into the abduction and murder of their mother Mrs Jean McConville

Mrs Nuala O’Loan
Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
18 July 2006

NipNip

wazky wrote: »

Some people really have no clue, the type of people who would in position to be picking up arms and such regard Adams and Sinn Fein with contempt. They are regarded as traitors for distancing themselves from the hardline Republicans.

It's laughable how out of touch some posters are.

My concern would be that there would be increased sympathy for dissident Republicanism among ordinarily pro-SF/Anti-violence nationalists. There are also a lot of young impressionable people, who could be easily brainwashed by the twisting of the current situation with regards to GA.

.jacksparrow.

Jawgap wrote: »

Conclusion to the Report into the complaint by James and Michael McConville regarding the police investigation into the abduction and murder of their mother Mrs Jean McConville

Mrs Nuala O’Loan
Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
18 July 2006

Ok so we can take the word of dead people that she was an informer ?

Seems were believing Adams had a part in her murder.

Gatling

Jawgap wrote: »

Conclusion to the Report into the complaint by James and Michael McConville regarding the police investigation into the abduction and murder of their mother Mrs Jean McConville

Mrs Nuala O’Loan
Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
18 July 2006

Some didn't get the memo in the members packs I think

.jacksparrow.

NipNip wrote: »

My concern would be that there would be increased sympathy for dissident Republicanism among ordinarily pro-SF/Anti-violence nationalists. There are also a lot of young impressionable people, who could be easily brainwashed by the twisting of the current situation with regards to GA.

Trying the same thing with the same outcome.

Something that has been happening for 100s of years.

This peace process will fail like all before it, because some people can't let the past be just that.

Jawgap

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Ok so we can take the word of dead people that she was an informer ?

Seems were believing Adams had a part in her murder.

Sorry, but did you read the quote, she unequivocally was not an informer, or agent........and the Brits have a neither-confirm-nor-deny approach on such matters but on this occasion they made an exception.

wazky

NipNip wrote: »

My concern of here would be increased sympathy for dissident Republicanism among ordinarily pro-SF/Anti-violence nationalists. There are also a lot of young impressionable people, who could be easily brainwashed by the twisting of the current situation with regards to GA.

Why though?, sounds like you are hoping for it more than anything else.

Sinn Fein have as much to with 'dissident' Republicans now as Fine Gael do. Worst case scenario is a few nights of rioting but to even suggest that we would go back to what we had years ago? Funny really.

.jacksparrow.

Jawgap wrote: »

Sorry, but did you read the quote, she unequivocally was not an informer, or agent........and the Brits have a neither-confirm-nor-deny approach on such matters but on this occasion they made an exception.

Well we're believing that Adams has a part in her murder because of the Boston tapes.

Those people also say she was an informer.

So do we believing both stories or just one?

Gatling

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Well we're believing that Adams has a part in her murder because of use Boston tapes.

Those people also say she was an informer.

So do we believing both stories or just one?

The IRA have said she wasn't,

The British have said she wasn't ,

But you claim she was ,

Jawgap

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Well we're believing that Adams has a part in her murder because of use Boston tapes.

Those people also say she was an informer.

So do we believing both stories or just one?

I'm going to assume that unlike the Ombudsman, the people alleging she was informer did not have access to the RUC and Garda intelligence files? They were just repeating the lies that were being peddled about the woman.

Plus, maybe I'm wrong but I'd imagine there's more on the tapes than a simple statement that someone was involved or not - there'll be details, timings etc which can or cannot be corroborated.

.jacksparrow.

Gatling wrote: »

The IRA have said she wasn't,

The British have said she wasn't ,

But you claim she was ,

That's not true is it.

.jacksparrow.

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm going to assume that unlike the Ombudsman, the people alleging she was informer did not have access to the RUC and Garda intelligence files? They were just repeating the lies that were being peddled about the woman.

Plus, maybe I'm wrong but I'd imagine there's more on the tapes than a simple statement that someone was involved or not - there'll be details, timings etc which can or cannot be corroborated.

Intelligence files?

You make it sound as if everything was rosy back in those days, the ruc did a fine job of investigating.

Birmingham, Guildford, Jesus take the blinkers off.

sillyoulfool

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Yes, she was working for the British Army

No she wasn't.

B_Rabbit

sillyoulfool wrote: »

No she wasn't.

Fairly sure she was informing. She was also warned several times by the IRA.

Gatling

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

That's not true is it.

What's not true

Banjo String

Gatling wrote: »

The IRA have said she wasn't,

The British have said she wasn't ,

But you claim she was ,

You're coming across as a bit of a shıt stirrer, or troll. Can't quite decide.

Gatling

B_Rabbit wrote: »

Fairly sure she was informing. She was also warned several times by the IRA.

And the IRA have stated she wasn't

on the river

B_Rabbit wrote: »

Fairly sure she was informing. She was also warned several times by the IRA.

Absolute rubbish. Base your evidence on the facts not assumptions. She was not a informer all the reports has reinforced this.

umop.episdn

B_Rabbit wrote: »

Fairly sure she was informing. She was also warned several times by the IRA.

Any evidence she was informing? Or is it just the normal heresay

Jawgap

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Intelligence files?

You make it sound as if everything was rosy back in those days, the ruc did a fine job of investigating.

Birmingham, Guildford, Jesus take the blinkers off.

It's nothing to do with blinkers - it's in the Obudsman's Report into the complaint made by here family - from pages 10 & 11 of the Report.....

Liaison with An Garda Siochana

Enquiries were made to determine whether any information was held by An Garda Siochana in relation to Mrs McConville’s disappearance. Superintendent M who is the Senior Investigating Officer responsible for the investigation following the discovery of Mrs McConville’s remains on Shelling Hill Beach, has said that he is not aware of any investigation into this issue prior to the 2003 investigation. There was no information to assist the Police Ombudsman’s enquiry.


Information held about Mrs McConville

The only record intelligence or information held in relation to Mrs McConville is as follows:

• 2 January 1973. On this date two pieces of information were received stating that “it is rumoured that Jean McConville had been abducted by the Provos because she is an informer”;

• On 17 January 1973 information states that Mrs McConville was being held by the Provos in Dundalk;

• On 17 January 1973 information was received that Mrs McConville was probably abducted by the Provos on suspicion of drug peddling;

• On 17 January 1973 information was received that a public representative wanted to get the family reunited;

• On 13 March 1973 information was received from the military suggesting that the abduction was an elaborate hoax;

• On 24 March 1973 further information was received from the military stating that the abduction was a hoax, that Mrs McConville had left of her own free will and was known to be safe.

• Following the 1995 review of her case information was received that she had been murdered by the Provisional IRA.

There is no record of her anywhere, other than this information, which followed her abduction. There is no record information or intelligence received by any organisation from her.


Enquiries in relation to whether any information was held by representatives of the Catholic Church

It has been established that the Fr Vincent McKinley, now deceased, was the Parish Priest of the parish of St Peter’s Pro-Cathedral, in which Mrs McConville lived. His curate, who lived in the parish from1969–1976 has no recollection of any church involvement in the issue.


The Provisional IRA statement of justification for the abduction and murder of Mrs Jean McConville

The Provisional IRA (PIRA) claimed for many years that they did not abduct and murder Mrs McConville. In March 1999 the PIRA admitted that they had killed a number of people, including Mrs McConville and alleged that some of them had been informants. The PIRA have consistently stated since that date that Mrs McConville was abducted because she was an informant [emphasis added, not in the original].

RandomName2

Karl Stein wrote: »

McGuiness said they'd fully back the PSNI unconditionally is it?

Please try to keep the discussion in the real world.

No, no, I suppose that the "corrupt cabal of terrorist unionists" merited conditional support - I mean, naturally right? Must have just suddenly dawned on McGuinness what sort of crowd he was dealing with were when it impinged on The Party.

Karl Stein wrote: »

I think that just might be the stupidest strawman I've ever read on boards.ie.

Congratualtions, you've won a box of crayons and a colouring book that will keep you entertained for months.

Me? Oh you're too kind: really the true recipient is in Stormont.

Karl Stein wrote: »

Nationalists and Republicans are committed to peace as long as those who purport to serve them are committed to being fair and applying justice equally. Not pursuing the Bloody Sunday murderers while detaining Adams is nothing other than the manifestation of double standards when it comes to justice.


I agree. If they're going to go after people for past crimes then do so impartially. Obviously this is not happening which is why Gerry Adams is in custody and the vermin who murdered while wearing state uniforms are not.

So, let's say a month ago a military tribunal was set up, and brought in a couple of ex-soldiers for questioning in relation to Bloody Sunday. Would you be online saying:
"This is far too close to the Irish state visit to be a coincidence! This is just a political hack job: I'd be happy enough with it if you had things like the Jean McConville murder being investigated, but this is clearly not equitable!

GERROUTOFIT!

mickydoomsux

B_Rabbit wrote: »

Fairly sure she was informing. She was also warned several times by the IRA.

Well that makes it OK then I suppose.

As long as she was warned by the IRA.

Uriel.

If she wasn't an informer, had there ever been any suggestion as to why she was killed. A murder is a murder is a murder, but this was, by the look of it, a quasi-millitary execution.

It wasn't a robbery gone wrong, and I highly doubt it was a killing because some just didn't like her.

The manner of her death (exuction) suggests something major (in the eyes of the IRA) was going on. Has there ever been any suggestions other than her being an informer?

sillyoulfool

ellavin wrote: »

In the news today looking for money for British families that were affected by the ira..... what about money for the lrish who were affected... what about the mother who had her two teenage sons 16 & 22 riddled by the SAS in 1985 in strabane

Damages were awarded to the family by the MOD on 7 May 2002, as part of a Belfast High Court settlement.
Though since they were active terrorists it defies belief that the family should have been awarded damages at all.
One wonders when SF will begin paying damages to the families of their innocent victims, they could start with the two Australian tourists they riddled in Roermond in 1990.

Capt'n Midnight

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

1. Gerry Adams is being questioned in Antrim. However, evidence shows that Jean McConville was killed in Louth, which is in a separate jurisdiction.

LOL
- My understanding is that he wasn't arrested for actually killing her while in Louth.
- UK law covers terrorism abroad.
- Our Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act 1976 removed the separate jurisdiction loophole.

And as you probably know most of the stuff that could be challenged was challenged in the European Court over the years so it's unlikely there are any get out of jail cards left.

it would be very difficult to find twelve people on this island who don't have some sort of preconceived idea of Gerry Adams, whether positive or negative, which would potentially prejudice them;

After 16 years of peace ?
Unless you had politically active 4 year olds there are plenty of youths who could sit on a jury, not to mention all the recent immigrants. So it wouldn't be too difficult to find a jury who didn't know or care who he is.