breaking: Gerry Adams Arrested in connection to McConville - MOD WARNING First Post

howiya

Phoebas wrote: »

I'm glad you've come to your senses.

Depends on your definition of coming to my senses. I'm sure we would still disagree on a lot

LuckyLloyd

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

How do you know what they presented him with. If they had nothing then why dis a judge give additional time? Was he a former RUC man too?

They don't have to present any evidence to be granted an extension, just request one.

Ignorant etc.

Its absolutely relevant, one man is condemned without trial whereas no suspicion is placed upon a man who deliberately sets out to damage certain sections of the community. Sorry if you can't see the link. Oh and when the thread is about Gerry Adams and I'm making a comparison between him and another man, then it would seem to me that I have, in fact, "read the thread", not that accusing me of not having done so would ever be the soundest way of turning someone to another way of thinking.

Da Shins Kelly

Happyman42 wrote: »

There is a real choice now facing the McConvilles, with the prospect of no charges being brought against Adams very high (not gonna happen imo) they face the prospect of this case fading into the sad background of the thousands of others awaiting closure.
It's time to stop messing with the media and get down to a police station.

The McConvilles might know who physically took their mother from the house, that doesn't mean they have substantial evidence that would stand up in court about who made the order.

Ignorant etc.

I love the way little CuChulainn thinks both the police and the judiciary are above any possibility of corruption.

Ignorant etc.

With regard to the McConvilles, whilst I have already expressed sympathy for them, I would challenge the ethicacy of bringing a civil case on a criminal issue against someone who has not been found guilty in a criminal law court. Its a very dangerous concept. Technically, any of us could civilly chase anyone for criminal damages, and if on the balance of probability, we prove our case then we can financially ruin that person. That's a far cry from the "beyond all reasonable doubt" of a criminal conviction. Civil and criminal law are separate for a reason.

The Diabolical Monocle

Lots of yap yap yap.


Shows over.


Gerry has left the building.


Exit left.

.jacksparrow.

Shock horror, he's out.

Jesus h Christ, it's so predictable....

delthedriver

ellavin wrote: »

Sinn fein all the way .....

.........all the way to North Pole? Hell?

.jacksparrow.

Its gone very quite here.

How convenient.

Gatling

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Its gone very quite here.

How convenient.

Did you not get an invite

.jacksparrow.

Gatling wrote: »

Did you not get an invite

Rabble Rabble.

Karl Stein

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

the one great thing about the peace process for the citizens of the republic was that we didnt have to listen the usual crap we have had to put up with over the last five days

You poor lambs having to force yourselves to listen to things you would normally have just switched off.

If there was an award for stupidest post of the month I'd nominate the one above.

delthedriver

Well it is all over for another day or until GA is charged with something.


Perhaps the Shinners have recomenced their canvassing and are too busy to come out to play here.


They have a lot of catching up to do.


At least their hero Gerry is outside for a while at least...........we'll wait and see what they come back with.


MLmcD and PD will have to wait a while longer before being crowned Queen and King of their "New Sinn Fein"! They could banish their subjects Adams & McGuiness to their respective retirement homes, and the Peoples Princess could live happily ever after and there will be peace throughout their land!

.jacksparrow.

delthedriver wrote: »

Well it is all over for another day or until GA is charged with something.


Perhaps the Shinners have recomenced their canvassing and are too busy to come out to play here.


They have a lot of catching up to do.


At least their hero Gerry is outside for a while at least...........we'll wait and see what they come back with.


MLmcD and PD will have to wait a while longer before being crowned Queen and King of their "New Sinn Fein"! They could banish their subjects Adams & McGuiness to their respective retirement homes, and the Peoples Princess could live happily ever after and there will be peace throughout their land!

I tried to read this but all I seen was bla bla. Bla

maccored

Wow. This is a whole new kind of waffle. What are you talking about delthedriver?

delthedriver wrote: »

Well it is all over for another day or until GA is charged with something.


Perhaps the Shinners have recomenced their canvassing and are too busy to come out to play here.


They have a lot of catching up to do.


At least their hero Gerry is outside for a while at least...........we'll wait and see what they come back with.


MLmcD and PD will have to wait a while longer before being crowned Queen and King of their "New Sinn Fein"! They could banish their subjects Adams & McGuiness to their respective retirement homes, and the Peoples Princess could live happily ever after and there will be peace throughout their land!

twowheelsgood

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Joan Connolly a mother of eight was shot by a low life para behind sandbags, she was shot in the face by this hero. What did she do, walking along the road with the main thought in her mind was what she was going to make for dinner for her eight kids.
Announced last week by the secretary of state, it didn't warrant an investigation. What standards do these ba$tards have.

So it seems there will be no justice for Joan Connolly on the basis of this weeks news. And also based on this weeks news, there will be no justice (probably) for Jean McConville.

So everybody wins (or everybody loses, I’m not sure?)

Da Shins Kelly

delthedriver wrote: »

Well it is all over for another day or until GA is charged with something.


Perhaps the Shinners have recomenced their canvassing and are too busy to come out to play here.


They have a lot of catching up to do.


At least their hero Gerry is outside for a while at least...........we'll wait and see what they come back with.


MLmcD and PD will have to wait a while longer before being crowned Queen and King of their "New Sinn Fein"! They could banish their subjects Adams & McGuiness to their respective retirement homes, and the Peoples Princess could live happily ever after and there will be peace throughout their land!

Good Lord.

Jake Rugby Walrus666

i dont think we will see an end to this thread in our lifetimes

orangesoda

delthedriver wrote: »

Well it is all over for another day or until GA is charged with something.


Perhaps the Shinners have recomenced their canvassing and are too busy to come out to play here.


They have a lot of catching up to do.


At least their hero Gerry is outside for a while at least...........we'll wait and see what they come back with.


MLmcD and PD will have to wait a while longer before being crowned Queen and King of their "New Sinn Fein"! They could banish their subjects Adams & McGuiness to their respective retirement homes, and the Peoples Princess could live happily ever after and there will be peace throughout their land!

You must visit big Gerrys new mural

http://cdn1.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article30240153.ece/eb50e/ALTERNATES/h342/ULSTER+McCo_19.jpg

voiceofrealism

hello to everyone,this is my first post and i felt compelled to throw in my 2ps worth just for the sake of clarification and correction of some ,quite frankly crazy points of view. i just wonder when everyone else was giving their opinions how much they actually knew about the war/conflict/terrorist/criminal campaign that manifested itself in the north of ireland/occupied six counties/northern ireland for the past few decades.
Firstly in relation to the "evidence" that most seem to be debating in relation to the boston college project,it is my opinion that either nobody here knows about it or they are picking out the bits that fit their particular point of view. This is going to be very laborious for me to type out from the book what Brendan Hughes actually says. So here goes......

At the time Divis Flats still existed and it was a major source of recruitment and activity by the IRA...Im not sure how it origionally started,how she became...an informer [but] she was an informer;she had a transmitter in her house. The British supplied the transmitter into her flat._____,watching the movements of IRA volunteers around Divis Flats at that time....the unit that was in....Divis Flats at the time was a pretty active unit.Afew of them,one of them in particular ,young________,recieved information from______ that ______ had something in the house.I sent.....a squad over to the house to check it out and there was a transmitter in the house.We retrieved the transmitter,arrested her,took her away,interrogated her,and she told [us] what she was doing.We actually knew what she was doing because we had the transmitter....if i can get the hold of this other wee man he can tell you more about it because I wasnt actually at the scene at the time.And because she was a woman....we let her go with a warning [and] confiscated the transmitter.A few weeks later,Im not sure again how the information came about...another transmitter was put in her house...she was still co-operating with the british;she was getting paid by the British to pass on information.That information came to our attention .The special squad was brought into operation then.And she was arrested again and taken away...

Q.Arrested by the IRA?

A.By the IRA.

Q.For the second time?

A.Yeah.Second time,and that was as much as i knew.I knew she was being executed.I didnt know she was going to be buried...or 'disapeared' as they call it now.I know one particular person on the Belfast Brigade at the time,Ivor [Bell], argued for [her] to be shot ,yes,but to be left on the street.Because to take her away and bury her....would serve no purpose ,people wouldnt know.So looking back on it now ,what happened to her ...was wrong.I mean ,she deserved to be executed,i believe,because she was an informer and she put other peoples lives at risk...There was only one man who gave the order for that woman to be executed.That... man is now the head of Sinn Fein.He went to this familys house and promised an investigation into the womans disappearance.That man is the man who gave ...the order for that woman to be executed.Now tell me the morality in that....I wasnt involved in the execution of the woman...but she was an informer,and...i warned her the first time.I took a device out of her house and warned her.Shed a load of kids.She carried on doing it.I did not give the order to execute that woman - he did.And yet he went to see them kids - they are not kids anymore,they are grown up - to promise an investigation into her death....[Ivor Bell] argued,'If you are going to kill her,put her on the street.Whats the sense of killing her and burying her if no one knows what she was killed for?I ts pure revenge if you kill someone and bury them.Whats the point of it?'

Q.And he Adams,rejected this logic?

A.He rejected it.

Q.And ordered her to be disappeared?

A.To be buried.She was an informer.

Q....with all her kids and the way the family was left,in hindsight ,do you feel as strongly about executing her?

A.Not really,no ,not now...at that time,certainly....but not now because as everything has turned out,not one death was worth it.

Q.....after the event,did you never discuss the issue with Gerry as to why it happened,what was the purpose of it,given that you had a different attitude?

A.....there was a never great deal of [that sort of] conversation;certainly we talked about it but the war was so intense and,i mean,you might have had twelve,fourteen operations out and getting kills and getting bombs in the town and so forth....you never thought about it too much because you were so intent in carrying out the war.I lived from operation to operation...you were robbing banks,robbing post offices,robbing trains,planting bombs,shooting Brits,trying to stay alive yourself,trying not to be arrested.


this is in the book voices from the grave. i would suggest people read it to inform themselves a wee bit before making assumtions. personally i think the different points of view take snippets to suit themselves but there are only really 3 conclusions to draw.
1.all of it is true
2.none of its true
3.some of its true

i think if you really read it some of it is contradictory,but i wouldnt like to make an assumtion either way,because i do not know.

in terms of the whataboutery thats going on,i think its safe to assume that we either have justice for all or just consign it to history. what also irks me is the blind loyalty both camps on here have and i would suggest that maybe the "shinnerbots" open their eyes a wee bit to the fact that the war wasnt as romantic as what they believe, the same could be said of the "finerbots"who seem to think that the 16 rising and war of idependence was somehow different because they all have one thing in common and thats misery pain and grief,hopefully the new generation will actually inform themselves a wee bit more as to how brutal war is and not be condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past. i can say this from reading countless books on our history and that is the twenties were probably more brutal than the current phase was....something to remember come the 100th anniversary in 2016 so when their moralising over what happened in the north maybe they should just remember that they do not know what they would have done in the given situation.
my own personal opinion is that everyone be they IRA UVF UDA British military innocent civilians were all victims of the society at the time.when we recognise that nobody has a monopoly on grief then we truly can move on.


sorry if ive posted this twice,still trying to get used to this forum technophobe lol

Nodin

Phoebas wrote: »

Let's not be silly Nodin - Michael McConville's primary concern isn't about what the status of the IRA is - his concern is that the IRA people who threatened to kill him if he talked might actually kill him if he talked.

Any number of people or dissident groups might kill him, for all I know. What I do know is that it won't and can't be the PIRA.

Jawgap

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

With regard to the McConvilles, whilst I have already expressed sympathy for them, I would challenge the ethicacy of bringing a civil case on a criminal issue against someone who has not been found guilty in a criminal law court. Its a very dangerous concept. Technically, any of us could civilly chase anyone for criminal damages, and if on the balance of probability, we prove our case then we can financially ruin that person. That's a far cry from the "beyond all reasonable doubt" of a criminal conviction. Civil and criminal law are separate for a reason.

So the Omagh relatives were wrong?

Civil and criminal law are not separate and it's not at all unusual for one to be used to support the other.

pO1Neil

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Your argument put simply would be that the old IRA are much the same in terms of tactics and justification as the provos, the former are reversed so therefore the latter should be too?

Leaving aside (and boy, do republicans leave this aside!) the fact that the Irish people, at the ballot box and everywhere else, repeatedly and unequivocally told PIRA, "not in my name", and the irony of mainstream republicans now criticising the dissidents exactly as we had criticised them, there is another difficulty with your argument.

Imagine if the British embraced that kind of thinking? I.e. Looked at at some of the unsavoury military heroes of old, who they still revere, and argue that some of them did far worse that the BA did in NI so the latter should be revered too?

All of which highlights the fallacy of looking to old history to justify present day actions.

The Provos knew what was best for the Irish people imo. The people of the North voted for peace not against the IRA. There's plenty of incidents were Volunteers were protected by normal members of the community & helped Volunteers escape after an action or military funeral.

orangesoda

Busted Flat. wrote: »

True loyalists can't go to football matches on our lords day, there is an exception though if you want to harass your neighbor if he is not from the same faith as them.

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2014/05/05/1226905/399669-feeb4192-d3c9-11e3-a0cc-60e9930b314e.jpg

the lovely lads, proper hard nuts

pO1Neil

youtube. com/watch?v=sxKyyl9F4NU Here's an accurate description of the PIRA how they came to form & about the support they got.

Jawgap

pO1Neil wrote: »

The Provos knew what was best for the Irish people imo. The people of the North voted for peace not against the IRA. There's plenty of incidents were Volunteers were protected by normal members of the community & helped Volunteers escape after an action or military funeral.

A Marxist-Leninist Republic!!!! I'm sure that would have worked out well!

Jawgap

pO1Neil wrote: »

youtube. com/watch?v=sxKyyl9F4NU Here's an accurate description of the PIRA how they came to form & about the support they got.

"uploaded by Oglaigh na hEireann" - I'm guessing that's not the Defence a Forces You Tube account?


.......and of course it's accurate :rolleyes:

Ignorant etc.

@voiceofrealism

That's probably the best post I've read in this thread, thank-you. Pretty much summed up what I think.

To whoever commented on my post about civil and criminal law, rather than attacking one part of what I said, try reading all of it. I remain unconvinced about the ethicacy of being found "guilty" on the balance of probability and "innocent" on the basis of beyond all reasonable doubt. Its a cop out. Either you're guilty or you're not.

I would firmly condemn Adams if, beyond all reasonable doubt, he is firmly shown to have conducted the abhorrent events surrounding McConville's disappearance, but I certainly won't consider him guilty on a balance of probability, simply because its far easier to be found guilty.

The Bloody Sunday paras were found guilty at a civil tribunal, not a criminal court of law. What happened on that day in Derry was wrong, wrong, wrong, but until they are convicted in a criminal court they are "innocent".

Also, you're seeking shock value by referencing the Omagh families. It is not they who are wrong, it is the law. They absolutely deserve justice against the evil bastards who killed their relatives but it must come in a criminal court.

I also find distasteful the concept of monetary value being place on people's lives.

Maybe I come across as a blind supporter of Irish republicanism. I am not. I have much empathy for it, yes, and though I do not condone, I can understand attacks on the forces of order. I absolutely condemn, however, evil bastards who disappear people and bomb and shoot civilians, on all sides.

I do also, however, condemn political policing.

Jawgap

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

@voiceofrealism

That's probably the best post I've read in this thread, thank-you. Pretty much summed up what I think.

To whoever commented on my post about civil and criminal law, rather than attacking one part of what I said, try reading all of it. I remain unconvinced about the ethicacy of being found "guilty" on the balance of probability and "innocent" on the basis of beyond all reasonable doubt. Its a cop out. Either you're guilty or you're not.

I would firmly condemn Adams if, beyond all reasonable doubt, he is firmly shown to have conducted the abhorrent events surrounding McConville's disappearance, but I certainly won't consider him guilty on a balance of probability, simply because its far easier to be found guilty.

The Bloody Sunday paras were found guilty at a civil tribunal, not a criminal court of law. What happened on that day in Derry was wrong, wrong, wrong, but until they are convicted in a criminal court they are "innocent".

Also, you're seeking shock value by referencing the Omagh families. It is not they who are wrong, it is the law. They absolutely deserve justice against the evil bastards who killed their relatives but it must come in a criminal court.

I also find distasteful the concept of monetary value being place on people's lives.

Maybe I come across as a blind supporter of Irish republicanism. I am not. I have much empathy for it, yes, and though I do not condone, I can understand attacks on the forces of order. I absolutely condemn, however, evil bastards who disappear people and bomb and shoot civilians, on all sides.

I do also, however, condemn political policing.

Guilt and liability are two separate things (as are tribunals and courts). If anyone is found liable of something, then they are not guilty and they are, of course, free to avail themselves of the various appellate processes if they feel the court got it wrong.

The criminal law cannot return to you that which you lost, that's what civil law is for - and if something cannot be returned (if you cannot be made 'whole' again), it's role is to award an appropriate level of damages to go some way to compensate for the loss. Damages are last the recourse in civil matters, but they are, unfortunately, often the only one.

The system allows families to sue the criminals who take away their loved ones, just as it allows the criminals to sue for libel if anyone says something untrue about them.......