breaking: Gerry Adams Arrested in connection to McConville - MOD WARNING First Post

DEFTLEFTHAND

Adams was in his early 20s when the murder occured, I doubt that he ordered anything, he was only a pup, Mconcovilles eldest son switched to the INLA after it became common knowlegge that the IRA had killed his mother.

bumper234

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Its gone very quite here.

How convenient.

Or

You know


2AM and not everyone wants to sit up all night debating this :rolleyes:

twowheelsgood

pO1Neil wrote: »

The Provos knew what was best for the Irish people imo.

Indeed the provos did think they knew what was best for the Irish people. Just as the architects of the British empire knew what was best for the Irish people for centuries before. (Do you suppose that's where the provos got their inspiration for their arrogance?)

If only they all thought fit to let the people decide their affairs themselves!

What's the word for that again? Ah, never mind. You probably never heard of it.

bumper234

Nodin wrote: »

Any number of people or dissident groups might kill him, for all I know. What I do know is that it won't and can't be the PIRA.

But it could easily be a "past member" of the IRA.

rockatansky

voiceofrealism wrote: »

what also irks me is the blind loyalty both camps on here have and i would suggest that maybe the "shinnerbots" open their eyes a wee bit to the fact that the war wasnt as romantic as what they believe, the same could be said of the "finerbots"who seem to think that the 16 rising and war of idependence was somehow different because they all have one thing in common and thats misery pain and griefl

Get off your high horse. Your first post on here is to proclaim that you are an expert on the subject because you've read a million books on the subject (well done) and then proceed generalise everyone who has contributed to the forum in the past couple of days into one of two groups and criticise both as you are some sort of moral figure on the subject. To me it's just fence sitting.

I see that you've quoted Brendan Hughes book in the subject, so do you believe him when he says Jean McConville was an informer?.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Somebody told me a great SF joke tonight and I can't remember it. :mad:


It's about two fags trying to vote for them. The joke centres around them pretending to be forward thinking? Anybody know it?

Phoebas

Nodin wrote: »

Any number of people or dissident groups might kill him, for all I know. What I do know is that it won't and can't be the PIRA.

The people who he'd be worried about are presumably the people who actually threatened to kill him, that is, people who were members of the PIRA.
I doubt it matters a jot to him that the organisation they were members of at the time is no longer active.

Banjo String

Jawgap wrote: »

A Marxist-Leninist Republic!!!! I'm sure that would have worked out well!

Gets spewed quite a lot.

Explain to me and anyone else that would be curious. Marxist /Leninist how?

NipNip

The following is just my opinion of the situation and is purely my own speculative take on things.

I think some people are unaware of the fact that there are a lot of people with motive to destroy GA.

If you can try to imagine someone who has grown up during the troubles, who has been recruited into the IRA from a very young age, who has been programmed to be a 'soldier', who has seen comrades tortured and murdered, who has had friends and family members killed or lost, who has believed 100% in their cause, who has fought relentlessly for what they believe to be a valid war and who has devoted their entire energy to a fight for freedom, then you might begin to understand the psyche of the likes of some of the individuals who spoke on the Boston tapes.

For someone like this, the notion that GA would do what they perceive to be an about-turn, to shake hands with the enemy and to agree politically to end the 'war', is quite simply a treacherous and traitorous act. It would just not be comprehensible to them.

Don't forget that these people are people who committed heinous acts in the belief that they were fighting a valid war. Therefore, to sully the name of a perceived traitor is child's play to them. Morally, it would be absolutely justifiable to them, to lie or to manipulate the truth in order to undermine the progression towards peace - something which they would perceive to be surrender or defeat.

Now. Quite apart from SF's past links with the IRA, I like their policies. I also believe that people in this party are not mé-féiners. They are not gutless self-serving money-grabbing clowns. They are (in my belief), individuals and a party with an unusual devotion and loyalty to the greater good of the Irish people. I don't think a solo run for money or fame would be tolerated within their party. I believe that whatever decisions or policies they would make, would genuinely be made with our collective best interests at heart.

They are not a collection of incompetent Neanderthal hooligans. That is why I support their party.

Jawgap

Banjo String wrote: »

Gets spewed quite a lot.

Explain to me and anyone else that would be curious. Marxist /Leninist how?

Their own 'Green Book' contains the following....

".....the Army are intent on creating a Socialist Republic."

"....to create support which will carry us not only through a war of liberation which could last another decade but which will support us pas t the 'Brits Out' stage to the ultimate aim of a Democratic Socialist Republic."

"....This implies LOYALTY to all YOUR COMRADES and PROTECTION of all members of the Movement, a deep and unmoving POLITICAL COMMITMENT to the ideas of the Socialist Republic...."

I presume they would have removed us from the EU.....

"The logical outcome of all this was the full immersion in the E.E.C. in the 1970's. The Republican Movement opposed this North and South in 1972 and 1975 and continues to do so. "

twowheelsgood

NipNip wrote: »

They are not gutless self-serving money-grabbing clowns.

Neither is any other party though there are certainly dodgy characters in any party.

NipNip wrote: »

They are (in my belief), individuals and a party with an unusual devotion and loyalty to the greater good of the Irish people.

They are as yet untested and will remain so until they serve a term in government. NI doesn’t really count as it is in effect a national government with limited power.

Any party can be very impressive in opposition (remember the greens and even Labour at times in the past)? When SF get their turn on the potty we will then see the colour of their money, to mix metaphors.

Banjo String

@Jawgap.

Nice to know you're in possession of a green book.

Marxism was an a idealism of the OFFICIAL IRA.
An idealism that the PROVISIONALS rejected vehemently.

Please tell me you know they were two completely different organisations.

NipNip

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Neither is any other party though there are certainly dodgy characters in any party.


They are as yet untested and will remain so until they serve a term in government. NI doesn’t really count as it is in effect a national government with limited power.

Any party can be very impressive in opposition (remember the greens and even Labour at times in the past)? When SF get their turn on the potty we will then see the colour of their money, to mix metaphors.

I completely accept all of the above. I am not naive or blinded by their rhetoric. I'd like to see them given a chance - I'd actually be particularly interested to see how they'd fare out. I think it's a bit narrow minded to completely disregard them as a party though. Either way, they are worth having in the Dáil in my opinion - be it in power or in opposition.

Jawgap

Banjo String wrote: »

@Jawgap.

Nice to know you're in possession of a green book.

Marxism was an a idealism of the OFFICIAL IRA.
An idealism that the PROVISIONALS rejected vehemently.

Please tell me you know they were two completely different organisations.

I do and the quotes are from the PIRA's Green Book I - both books are freely available online.

R P McMurphy

delthedriver wrote: »

It is most certainly a difficult one. No doubt they wasn't justice for their mother.
The sad thing is if the pursue the matter with the police they live in fear of being gunned down by one of the brave men who has one hand on a ballot box and the other on a gun.
If they are to get closure in this whole matter, the only way they can do that is by talking to the PSNI,
If I were in their shoes, I would be willing to take that risk and bring a conclusion to a matter which has haunted them for years. Living everyday with that burden is a living hell.

The vast majority of your posts seem like they were written in the 1980s

Jawgap

The Green Book (1977) edition also contains this......

Socially and Economically we will enact a policy aimed at eradicating the Social Imperialism of today, by returning the ownership of the wealth of Ireland to the people of Ireland through a system of co-operativism, worker ownership, and control of industry, Agriculture and the Fisheries.

The Green Book is also available as an appendix to TPC's book.

twowheelsgood

NipNip wrote: »

I am not naive or blinded by their rhetoric.

But some are. Though this is not specific to SF. There always seems to be an unrealistic expectation from opposition parties when they come to power, no doubt heavily fuelled by this rhetoric.

IMO, the current government (notwithstanding shall we call it a charm and even ethics deficit in some of their members) are doing about as good a management job as can be reasonably expected. Anyone who expects any alternative government to perform substantially better are going to be disappointed.

NipNip wrote: »

II think it's a bit narrow minded to completely disregard them as a party though.

I don’t think it is narrow-mindedness to dismiss a party. Many people have parties that they will never vote for on the basis of their policies or culture. When SF break with their provo past is complete I think (and I believe SF think) many people will look at them again.

Of course, when that happens and people are looking at SF policy rather than their history they will see socialism and nationalism, two isms to which the Southern electorate have long been lukewarm. Whether SF persuades them to change or SF do the changing remains to be seen.

.jacksparrow.

Few facts about the psni I read.

The PSNI continues to prevent effective investigations into the deaths of Irish citizens at the hands of British controlled death squads.
The PSNI continues to obstruct and unnecessarily delay inquests into many of those same deaths as a matter of routine.
The PSNI continues to withhold information, documentation and intelligence files from the families of those who died as a result of British state terrorism.
The PSNI has re-employed huge numbers of ex-RUC Special Branch personnel, many of whom are implicated in the murders of Irish citizens and other serious human rights abuses.
Large numbers of PSNI personnel routinely operate under MI5 control. A report by the Committee on the Administration of Justice in 2012 suggests the actual figure could be as high as 2,500 personnel – one third of the PSNI’s total manpower. This clearly indicates the formal establishment of an unaccountable ‘a force within a force’, rather than the existence of a small ‘cabal’ of rogue cops.
The PSNI regularly calls upon Britain’s shadowy military force, the Special Reconnaissance Regiment, to conduct undercover operations on its behalf.
The PSNI ignored rulings of the European Court of Human Rights by continuing to conduct thousands of unlawful ‘stop and searches’, almost exclusively against republicans. Evidence shows that MI5 directs the usage of stop and search powers by the PSNI.
The PSNI has engaged in evidence tampering in a number of cases against republicans.
The PSNI has fired large number of plastic bullets at unarmed civilians and stockpiled many thousands of those lethal projectiles.
The PSNI has approved use of child informers.
The British state has introduced 28 day detention for those under arrest.
The PSNI and the British courts routinely use ‘internment by remand’ to imprison political opponents for periods of up three years.
The PSNI and the British courts impose a draconian form of internal exile upon political opponents within the Six Counties. Such measures have not been used in the Six Counties since the abolition of the old Special Powers Act.
The PSNI and the British courts have flouted European court rulings by retaining DNA samples and fingerprints of thousands of innocent people, including children.

theKillerBite

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Few facts about the psni I read.

Yes because eirigi is known to provide facts.

Ignorant etc.

Jawgap wrote: »

The Green Book (1977) edition also contains this......



The Green Book is also available as an appendix to TPC's book.

As part of the peace process' mission to create a more inclusive society shouldn't these aims be extended to the world of guerilla literature? What about the poor purple books and yellow books? Are they just not bookish enough?

.jacksparrow.

theKillerBite wrote: »

Yes because eirigi is known to provide facts.

Are they incorrect ?

Ignorant etc.

EQUAL RIGHTS FOR MULTICOLOURED BOOKS NOW!

NipNip

twowheelsgood wrote: »

I don’t think it is narrow-mindedness to dismiss a party. Many people have parties that they will never vote for on the basis of their policies or culture. When SF break with their provo past is complete I think (and I believe SF think) many people will look at them again.

Of course, when that happens and people are looking at SF policy rather than their history they will see socialism and nationalism, two isms to which the Southern electorate have long been lukewarm. Whether SF persuades them to change or SF do the changing remains to be seen.

Maybe not narrow-mindedness - perhaps cutting off your nose to spite your face would be a better way of putting it! I accept that some people will never accept a party with previous links to the IRA and that is their prerogative. It is down to everyone to follow their own moral compass, but do so with an informed base point of knowledge - not as a blanket ban on 'the Shinners', just because they are 'the Shinners'.

In terms of socialism - if you look at current taxation of high earners in Ireland, if you were/are in fact a high-earner, you might probably be lamenting what you perceive to be a ferocious taxation of your wages: - Are FG/Labour socialist in their taxation policies?

If you're a middle income earner with absolutely nothing left at the end of the month, with limited access to a shoddy healthcare system, with taxation piled upon taxation, and with cuts to every service you will need to pay through the nose for to access, you might in fact welcome a wee change in policies.

I'd like to see our low corporate tax rate maintained and I'd like to see an end to the crippling taxation of every working person in the country. We need a fairer system. A fair system does not mean it has to be some Robin Hood endeavour. There is no need to rob from the rich to give to the poor. There is a need though for the elite who jump through tiny loopholes with millions and billions to start to 'give back'.

Jawgap

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

As part of the peace process' mission to create a more inclusive society shouldn't these aims be extended to the world of guerilla literature? What about the poor purple books and yellow books? Are they just not bookish enough?

Well Mao had his Little Red Book and the Blue Book is the stock assessment for Irish fisheries.

Yellow book? That's a bit close to yellow / golden pages, so it's been done.

The purple book has also already been done - it's the specification document for the double-density compact disc.

But nice of you to stick up for them.....

JohnInDublin59

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

With regard to the McConvilles, whilst I have already expressed sympathy for them, I would challenge the ethicacy of bringing a civil case on a criminal issue against someone who has not been found guilty in a criminal law court. Its a very dangerous concept. Technically, any of us could civilly chase anyone for criminal damages, and if on the balance of probability, we prove our case then we can financially ruin that person. That's a far cry from the "beyond all reasonable doubt" of a criminal conviction. Civil and criminal law are separate for a reason.

While there have been a couple of articulate rejoinders to this, I wanted to add my 2 cents.

Firstly I've no idea what ethicacy is

Secondly the courts are open to all of us if we believe we’ve been wronged by someone else. (As long of course as we can afford the legal bills, and take the risk that if we lose we may be stuck with the other side’s costs too.)

I've no problem with the Omagh relatives going the civil route, nor with the relatives of OJ Simpson’s victims having done the same.

And of course Gerry and co are free to sue if they believe they've been defamed.

As ‘Slab’ Murphy did.

With, as the saying goes, hilarious consequences...

Indeed I’d have thought Gerry would welcome all of these issues being discussed in open court, under oath.....

delthedriver

R P McMurphy wrote: »

The vast majority of your posts seem like they were written in the 1980s

Like you I am entitled to my opinion.


We don't have to agree with each others opinions

delthedriver

orangesoda wrote: »

You must visit big Gerrys new mural

http://cdn1.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article30240153.ece/eb50e/ALTERNATES/h342/ULSTER+McCo_19.jpg

Mmmmm . Intersesting.............the teeth in the mural are not as white as Gerry's new teeth!

.jacksparrow.

delthedriver wrote: »

Seen or saw? which tense were you reading in? Perhaps English is not you first Language!

Good one.

Elmer Blooker

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Joan Connolly a mother of eight was shot by a low life para behind sandbags, she was shot in the face by this hero. What did she do, walking along the road with the main thought in her mind was what she was going to make for dinner for her eight kids.
Announced last week by the secretary of state, it didn't warrant an investigation. What standards do these ba$tards have.

I'm sure the Connolly family would love to see their case pursued with the same vigour and gusto as the McConville case. The harsh reality is that Joan Connolly has no value and as far as the propaganda war is concerned is worthless.

delthedriver

pO1Neil wrote: »

The Provos knew what was best for the Irish people imo. The people of the North voted for peace not against the IRA. There's plenty of incidents were Volunteers were protected by normal members of the community & helped Volunteers escape after an action or military funeral.

I respect your view point, however they did not have a mandate from the Irish people. I am not aware of people who gave them a mandate to represent them


The ROI had its own Defence Forces. The IRA on the other hand was a terrorist organisation .


My recollection is that an overwhelming majority of people on the island of Ireland voted for the peace process