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Advise please - Part 4 tenancy query

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  • 02-05-2014 10:36am
    #1
    gemini_girl
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭


    Hi
    I have been living in a rented house since july 2012. During this time the house was up for sale. In july 2013 we signed a new contract for a further 12 months which expires july 2014. In the last couple of months the house has gone sale agreed to an investor. The letting agent has advised us that the new landlord is happy for us to stay on as tenants. We dont want to sign another fixed contract but would rather carry on as part 4 tenants. What are the usual steps in our case & does the house sale & new landlord have any affect? If the landlord wishes to raise the rent when should we be notified (it hasnt been raised since we moved in & is roughly 50 to 150 euro less than similar houses in the area) We are in receipt of rent allowance & if the rent increases we would need to notify cwo in our area. If the agent wants us to sign a fixed contract what are our options? Thanks


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    #2
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,960 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    I suspect you cannot carry on as Part 4, because you've not had six months with the new LL. But if the new owner is happy for you to stay, they may well be happy to sign an open-term lease immediately: there's no reason why a new lease needs to be signed (except if the agent wants a signing fee from the landlord!).

    Has anyone asked you to sign anything? If not, then sit tight and say nothing.


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    #3
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    If I'm correct you will have to supply a new lease for rent allowence ,as your old lease will no longer be valid ,
    Check with your cwo
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #4
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Part 4 is not lost when the property is sold. The new owner is taken to be an assignee of the interest of the old owner in the lease. Nothing can be done about a rent increase though.


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    #5
    gemini_girl
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭gemini_girl


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Part 4 is not lost when the property is sold. The new owner is taken to be an assignee of the interest of the old owner in the lease. Nothing can be done about a rent increase though.

    So at the moment we are happy to stay on as tenants with the current rent rate. If the LL wants to increase the rent are they obliged to do so with notice? In other words if the rent goes up we have to move but if they dont tell us about the increase we cant give correct notice (2 months i think)


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    #6
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    WhiteTiger wrote: »
    So at the moment we are happy to stay on as tenants with the current rent rate. If the LL wants to increase the rent are they obliged to do so with notice? In other words if the rent goes up we have to move but if they dont tell us about the increase we cant give correct notice (2 months i think)
    A notification of rent increase must be served in writing by the landlord on the tenant, at least 28 days prior to the date of the increase and must give the amount of the new rent and the date from which the new rent is applicable.

    Basically, if you disagree with the amount of the increase you must lodge a claim with the PRTB before the new rate commences.

    As Claw Hammer says, it is the amount of time the tenant has been residing in the property which dictates whether a Part 4 is in existance - it has nothing to do with the landlord.

    Furthermore, you are not obliged to sign a new fixed term lease if you don't want to.


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    #7
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Part 4 is not lost when the property is sold. The new owner is taken to be an assignee of the interest of the old owner in the lease. Nothing can be done about a rent increase though.

    Correct- Part 4 is not lost- the tenancy continues, the new owner being an assignee of the interest of the old owner in the lease.
    However- as a rent review will not have been conducted in over a year- the new owner is free to review the rent, and and when they see fit. This will be their first review- and after the review- it may not be reviewed again for a period of 12 months.


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    #8
    gemini_girl
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭gemini_girl


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Correct- Part 4 is not lost- the tenancy continues, the new owner being an assignee of the interest of the old owner in the lease.
    However- as a rent review will not have been conducted in over a year- the new owner is free to review the rent, and and when they see fit. This will be their first review- and after the review- it may not be reviewed again for a period of 12 months.

    Well things have changed for the worst unfortunately. Got a phone call from the agent to say new landlord has changed his mind about letting out the house & they want to move into it themselves in 4 weeks time! Agent told them we (the tenants) need adequate notice so we have to be out in 8 weeks time. Agent said he would send on letter but wanted to tell us in person first.
    Does all of this sound above board? We are here nearly 2 years on our 2nd fixed term lease. Its very bad news for us though, in our area at the moment there are 6 properties to let & none take rent allowance. Other areas nearby have higher rent plus we have to stay in this area as we are waiting for a council house & you must live in the area you have put on application. Ive been looking up homeless shelters in cork just incase but any advice in any regard would really be appreciated. I doubt a landlord would take us when we lost our jobs even if we wanted to pay rent out of unemployment assistance?


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    #9
    accensi0n
    Registered Users Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭accensi0n


    WhiteTiger wrote: »
    Agent told them we (the tenants) need adequate notice so we have to be out in 8 weeks time. Agent said he would send on letter but wanted to tell us in person first.
    Does all of this sound above board?

    Yes it seems above board.


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    #10
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    accensi0n wrote: »
    Yes it seems above board.

    Agreed the eight week notice seems right


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    #11
    gemini_girl
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭gemini_girl


    Stheno wrote: »
    Agreed the eight week notice seems right
    Does this mean if we find a property before the notice is up we pay the rent up until end of lease date?


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    #12
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    WhiteTiger wrote: »
    Does this mean if we find a property before the notice is up we pay the rent up until end of lease date?

    No you pay up to the end of the notice period or a shorter term if the new owners are agreeable to that.


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    #13
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    Agreed the eight week notice seems right
    Provided the notice of termination expires after the end of your fixed term agreement - otherwise you can stay until the end of the fixed term.


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    #14
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    odds_on wrote: »
    Provided the notice of termination expires after the end of your fixed term agreement - otherwise you can stay until the end of the fixed term.

    Have you a link to back this up? OP is in a part four tenancy with defined notice limits as she is on year two of tenancy

    OP is actually getting two weeks more notice given the length of her tenancy

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html


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    #15
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    Stheno wrote: »
    Have you a link to back this up? OP is in a part four tenancy with defined notice limits as she is on year two of tenancy

    OP is actually getting two weeks more notice given the length of her tenancy

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html
    The OP says:
    In july 2013 we signed a new contract for a further 12 months which expires july 2014.
    Therefore, from my reading of it, he has a fixed term lease which expires sometime in July. If the lease expires early July then the NoT served about now will not expire until the end of July when the fixed term has expired.

    If, however, the lease expired, say, 31st July, then the NoT would expire before the fixed term lease and would mot be valid.

    There are some posters who believe that a NoT using the grounds available in a Part 4 tenancy cannot be served until the fixed term has expired. I do not believe this to be the case for several reasons.


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    #16
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    odds_on wrote: »
    The OP says:
    Therefore, from my reading of it, he has a fixed term lease which expires sometime in July. If the lease expires early July then the NoT served about now will not expire until the end of July when the fixed term has expired.

    If, however, the lease expired, say, 31st July, then the NoT would expire before the fixed term lease and would mot be valid.

    There are some posters who believe that a NoT using the grounds available in a Part 4 tenancy cannot be served until the fixed term has expired. I do not believe this to be the case for several reasons.

    They are in a part four tenancy though, so the notice period applies in my opinion?


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    #17
    gemini_girl
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭gemini_girl


    Stheno wrote: »
    They are in a part four tenancy though, so the notice period applies in my opinion?
    Lease expires on 27th of july ...


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    #18
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    Stheno wrote: »
    They are in a part four tenancy though, so the notice period applies in my opinion?
    The terms and conditions of a fixed term contract take precedence over Part 4 rights in regards to serving a NoT using the grounds available under Part 4 of the RTA 2004 unless there is a valid break clause.

    A landlord cannot break a fixed term contract if he wants the property for his own use - he must wait until the fixed term expires or there is a valid break clause.


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    #19
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    WhiteTiger wrote: »
    Lease expires on 27th of july ...

    So notice meets more than part four and is pretty much when your lease expires.

    Nothing wrong there.


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    #20
    Yawns
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭Yawns


    Depending on the date if the OP is in a fixed lease atm, then if served with a NoT which has a termination date before the 27th, then it would be an invalid NoT?


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    #21
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Yawns wrote: »
    Depending on the date if the OP is in a fixed lease atm, then if served with a NoT which has a termination date before the 27th, then it would be an invalid NoT?

    They have a fixed term tenancy agreement, a legally binding agreement, with the ex-owner. They have a Part IV tenancy with the new owner. In either event- the serving of 8 weeks notice- to coincide with the date of the fixed term lease, and because the owner wants to live in the property- would appear to be appropriate.


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    #22
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    They have a fixed term tenancy agreement, a legally binding agreement, with the ex-owner. They have a Part IV tenancy with the new owner. In either event- the serving of 8 weeks notice- to coincide with the date of the fixed term lease, and because the owner wants to live in the property- would appear to be appropriate.

    Could a deed of assignment be done by the landlords as part of the sale? In which case the lease would still be live.
    We often hear of tenants reassigning leases unofficially, I'm sure it could be part of the document pack so may be worth asking the agents how the landlord and owner are dealing with it.


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    #23
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Could a deed of assignment be done by the landlords as part of the sale? In which case the lease would still be live.
    We often hear of tenants reassigning leases unofficially, I'm sure it could be part of the document pack so may be worth asking the agents how the landlord and owner are dealing with it.

    In theory- yes, however, as most lenders insist on vacant possession, it would rule out of the equation all but cash-buyers. The current 8 week that the agent has informed the tenant and owner about- would appear to be in order.


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    #24
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    In theory- yes, however, as most lenders insist on vacant possession, it would rule out of the equation all but cash-buyers. The current 8 week that the agent has informed the tenant and owner about- would appear to be in order.

    Good point!!


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