Problem with Dublin bay starting sequence.

Steve

So, as usual, last Thursday, the first race of the season's start for C0 /C1 was chaos.

I've re-read she SI's and current RRS and there is a problem.

In my understanding, in order to override a RRS, the SI for any event must explicitly state that they are overriding a rule within that clause.

The starting sequence stated in the DBSC SI's for the 'first start' is vague, conflicts with ISAF RRS and does not state that it overrides it.

RRS Rule 26 defines clearly that a starting sequence is:
5 mins - warning & class flag up
4 mins - prep & P flag up
1 min - p flag down (+ I / Z etc as appropriate)
0 min - start - class flag down

IMO, The DBSC sequence and SI's breaches current RRS.

Any thoughts?

HeidiHeidi

I've found the following in the 2012 DBSC handbook NOR/SIs (haven't got the 2014 one to hand but I'd be very surprised if it reads differently, as they've been running their current system as long as I've been racing in Dublin Bay)

13 The Start
13.1 The signals for starting each race will be made at 5 minute intervals
13.2 First class to start: Warning Signal - Class Flag broken out. Preparatory signal - Code Flag P broken out. Starting signal - Class Flag lowered.
13.3 Succeeding classes: Warning Signal - the Preparatory Signal of the preceding class. Preparatory signal - class flag displayed. Starting Signal - class flag lowered. (Amends RRS 26)

So they operate on a 6-5-1-gun system for the first start, and then a rolling 10-5-gun system for subsequent starts, not the more usual 5-4-1-gun.

Amendment to RRS clearly stated.

Since we're at the tail end of the starting sequence, we just operate on the basis that Sigmas are our 10, Cr2 our 5, and then comes our gun (or whatever, depending on the day).

Vexorg

2014 booklet is word for word the same (except the numbering is 14, 14.1, etc.).

Last year as a new boat, we could not understand why we kept getting the first start wrong, the rules said 5 minute intervals, and the explanation of the first start did not translate in 6-5-1. We just thought we missed head what was said and would make appealing starts as we just did not understand what was happening. Took us a long time to figure out what was happening. The rules are not new boat friendly and we had no one on board who had raced in the dbsc before to guide us.

HeidiHeidi

Vexorg wrote: »

2014 booklet is word for word the same (except the numbering is 14, 14.1, etc.).

Last year as a new boat, we could not understand why we kept getting the first start wrong, the rules said 5 minute intervals, and the explanation of the first start did not translate in 6-5-1. We just thought we missed head what was said and would make appealing starts as we just did not understand what was happening. Took us a long time to figure out what was happening. The rules are not new boat friendly and we had no one on board who had raced in the dbsc before to guide us.

I can't remember how we initially figured it out, but the SIs need to be read in conjunction with the Course Card 2 starting times, which make it clearer.

A bit late to be pointing that out to you, though

Vexorg

We were caught out by -

14.1 The signals for starting each race will be made at 5 minute intervals.

We took that literally, and for weeks blamed who ever was on the stopwatch for getting the countdown wrong. Made sense when we figured out/asked/had it explained that the first start was 6-5-1.

White sails must have been first start last year?

HeidiHeidi

Vexorg wrote: »

We were caught out by -

14.1 The signals for starting each race will be made at 5 minute intervals.

We took that literally, and for weeks blamed who ever was on the stopwatch for getting the countdown wrong. Made sense when we figured out/asked/had it explained that the first start was 6-5-1.

White sails must have been first start last year?

Yep, just found last year's stuff, and you guys were the red fleet on Saturdays, first start. Blue fleet and last start on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Must have been VERY confusing! You're back fulltime in the blue fleet this year.

That 14.1 could (and presumably should) be read as meaning that each start gun will be five minutes apart, which they are. It's just the warning which is at 6 minutes. But I can easily see how that could be misinterpreted. I'd hate to be an SI writer!!!

Steve

The issue moreso for me is that 14.3 says it amends RRS 26 - fair enough, it's unclear, however, if this just applies to 14.3 or the whole of 14 - let's assume it covers the entire SI 14

If the above is true then the prep at 6 minutes is illegal as they haven't stated anywhere that it is 6 minutes - therefore the 5 minute rule in RRS 26 should apply. All they've amended is the flag sequence.

Not sure if I am explaining that correctly.

HeidiHeidi

I'm afraid you'll have to find someone else more familiar with the intricacies of rules and SI writing than me to explain it to you properly - I manage to read something new into it every time I read through that section!!!

All I know is that as far as I'm concerned, including when doing RO in the hut, the warning at 6 minutes is for DBSC racing in general, the preparatory at 5 is for the first class (and warning for the second class), and the subsequent classes run in five minute sequences off that - 10/5/gun.

I'm afraid I wouldn't be up on the legal niceties of that arrangement, or whether it contravenes or supercedes the RRS, but it's been that way as long as I've been racing in DBSC and I've never heard anyone complain about it!