Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Mickeroo

Surely everyone can agree criticising the game for not having any black characters is nonsensical when you take into account the setting? it seems like they were attempting to show horn in controversy where it doesn't really exist due to the developer's controversial views expressed outside of the game.

I don't dispute the reviewer is entitled to say whatever they want in their review if they feel it's relevant, I just think what they said there specifically is really really stupid.

Zero-Cool

Goddamn it this is sold out everywhere except Gamestop who are selling it for 70, GTFO GS.

Robert ninja

Hope they add back linux support to their future plans. Was a shame it was removed early on. I feel like this game has a strong future for updates & modding.

J Mysterio

Robert ninja wrote: »

Hope they add back linux support to their future plans. Was a shame it was removed early on. I feel like this game has a strong future for updates & modding.

Black lads mod incoming.

A reviewer will bring personal boas, Roger Ebert for example was well know for his hatred of certain genre fare and you could almost tell what films he was going to hate. The difference here is that we are seeing reviewers not just displaying a bias but actively attacking a game for not being inclusive even though the reviewers are unable to back up their attacks. The argument that surely someone of colour would have stopped by and made a baby with a local is inherently flawed. Historians who have commented on thus have said things like "it's possible" but there's no concrete evidence to back it up. I'm all for calling out racism and yes the dev sounds like a twat but attacking the game because it doesn't have people of colour is like criticising Battlefield 1 or Call or Duty WWWII for not having any trans characters.

johnny_ultimate

Mickeroo wrote: »

Surely everyone can agree criticising the game for not having any black characters is nonsensical when you take into account the setting? it seems like they were attempting to show horn in controversy where it doesn't really exist due to the developer's controversial views expressed outside of the game.

In the case of the Eurogamer review, I think they picked the wrong hill to die on for sure - I mean, they even point out the portrayal of the Cumans is no worse than any portrayal of 'bad guys' in many games past. I'm sure someone could/will potentially argue that the mere choice of a setting could be a loaded decision (historical fiction or references have been used for ideological messaging in the past - just look at something like 300, although I don't think that hot mess makes many claims to 'historical accuracy' ), but I personally see no evidence that is the case here. As much as Vavra has muddied the waters with some of his publicly shared views & sympathies, I haven't seen any analysis to definitively debunk its much-heralded 'historical accuracy'. It is, as you suggest, an extremely weak argument, until/unless some historian or articulate critic comes along and proves otherwise.

I don't think there's any onus on reviewers to separate Vavra from the game, mind - if they want to call him out or highlight some of his views in reviews or elsewhere, fair game as far as I'm concerned. He's done what he's done, and has to deal with the consequences of that (personally, I've no interest in supporting his game - but thankfully I've no interest in the premise of the game in the first place :pac:). From what I’ve seen, his various views have actually won him as many fans as opponents, so it’s far from all negative publicity for them. But the 'no black people' debate for sure seems like a doomed one that has the potential to undermine more legitimate criticism of the game's content. Certainly the unconvincing attempt in the Eurogamer review weakens what is otherwise largely fair, reasonable comment.

Anyone have the GameStop trade in list for their current offer?

Zero-Cool

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Anyone have the GameStop trade in list for their current offer?

https://www.gamestop.ie/Get-Paid-To-Trade

ERG89

https://www.gamestop.ie/Software-Trade-In-Offers

Temptamperu

Oh man this is taking too long to download

The_Valeyard

J Mysterio wrote: »

Black lads mod incoming.

Twist. Everyone's black. No white people at all in middle age Bohemia

Robert ninja

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Certainly the unconvincing attempt in the Eurogamer review weakens what is otherwise largely fair, reasonable comment.

Reasonable comment... It's character assassination because he supports gamergate which journos have been lying about for years now. Their comments are virtue signalling by letting the clique know (if not already coordinated by GJP 2.0) that yes, we also hate this guy. The game could have had other ethnicities and whatever else these hacks pretend they want in the game (they obviously don't give AF) and they'd still find something to complain about because he's on thewrong side.

Skerries

a million copies sold already

https://www.dsogaming.com/news/kingdom-come-deliverance-has-sold-one-million-copies-45-coming-from-the-pc/

Kirby

Temptamperu wrote: »

Oh man this is taking too long to download

Temper that excitement. I'm enjoying the game for sure but I'm about 20 hours in. If you expect to be blown away as soon as your download finishes....you might be annoyed.

The first 4 hours or so are a bit of a mess so you are going to have to get through that. It's a ton of tutorials and cutscenes basically. Yes, it sets the stage and explains who Henry is but you have very little input until you get to Rattay.

Kiith

I absolutely love it. Some of the most fun i've had in a game in ages. Combat is excellent once you get the hang of it, and you can string together some cool looking moves. Had an excellent fight with a random knight on the road again, and it literally lasted through the night (when i lost...again). Main story is enjoyable as well, and is better than most games i've played recently.

They've also done a great job with the world itself, and it's fun just exploring and hunting.

My biggest annoyance is the loading before every conversation (and sometimes opening the map). Really bloody frustrating at times. AI is also laughable at times, but that's pretty much the norm these days. Very few games get that right.

GoldenLynel

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Exactly the same thing with Vavra, surely? He's said provocative things and publicly supported views, people and movements many people find distasteful. The studio has put him out as spokesman and public face for the game. He's absolutely free to say those things, but he is not free from the consequences of saying them or his game being dragged into the furore. I mean, even he himself acknowledges a "lack of care and thoughtlessness" in some of his comments and actions.

I don't believe developers should just 'put up and shut up', but nor should they be immune from criticism simply because they're from a small or independent studio. Reviewers shouldn't be discouraged from expressing their opinions, which is actually surely the sort of philosophy folk like Vavra dedicate themselves to defending?

Also, I should point out I find his personal view that an "artwork initially always be seen free of political or ideological views" a bit troublesome, even when divorced from my personal disagreements with his stated political viewpoints. Artists put a lot of themselves in their work, even if it doesn't manifest itself in overt ways. Few games communicate nothing at all about their creator, and the more complex a game's storytelling and world-building, the more likely a designer's views will feed into the overall thing. People shouldn't be afraid to embrace that even if it inevitably opens themselves up to criticism, and I think that sort of apoliticism is part of the reasons why a lot of games struggle to communicate anything interesting or coherent.

Although I found such an argument far more duplicitous and farcical when the developers of Hatred used a similar line a few years ago. Now they were being disingenuous as all **** by trying to divorce their mass murder-thon from any sort of context

(I should point out that while I have no problem with many of the criticisms being levelled at Vavra and consequently Kingdom Come, I do believe the Eurogamer review handled the matter in a rather cack-handed way).

I do agree with you on most of this actually but I also think it's worth keeping an eye on this kind of stuff.

I've been a member of both NeoGAF and ResetEra and even though we are supposed to be the good guys there are a good few toxic people on there who seem determined to just stoke some outrage.

The reaction to this game really is the straw that breaks the camels back for me. Vavra made a statement that I think was very reasonable but it's just not enough and I can't shake the feeling that this is a subtle warning to other developers.

The Eurogamer reveiw actually names and links to ResetEra so it's clear that when journalists are looking into potential controversies they are using ResetEra as a source.

On that forum, that they are using as a source, here is one of the guidelines for even posting about the game:

"Vávra's views on a multitude of subjects are offensive and racist. Defense of his views will be moderated like any other defense of racism. Do not try to find sneaky ways to circumvent this ruling, like singling out Vávra for nonspecific praise or support."

So you have journalists referencing sources that are outright banning defense and nonspecific praise of Vavra.

Yet Vavras own response to racism etc allegations is "I am not a friend of any kind of totalitarian rule and consider the accusation that I am a Nazi or close to any ideology that even remotely goes in that direction, therefore as absurd, even personally offensive."

I don't like the way that this stuff seems to be creeping into the industry and I don't like the way reviewers are jumping on the bandwagon.

GoldenLynel

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

As much as Vavra has muddied the waters with some of his publicly shared views & sympathies.

He's done what he's done, and has to deal with the consequences of that

From what I’ve seen, his various views have actually won him as many fans as opponents, so it’s far from all negative publicity for them.

What views are these?

When I've tried looking it up it's not really clear exactly what his views are. He's accused of being associated with this or that but it's not really clear to me what Vavras views on anything are outside of the large statement he made that I posted earlier.

The Eurogamer review has this exact problem. It doesn't really go into what his views are. Just that his views are vaguely bad and the game cannot be recommended because of that.

"Instead of challenging the Dark Age it reinterprets 615 years later, the game seems to delight in it. Instead of seeing notes in the margin of a history book, we get what feels like a glossy pamphlet advertising an escape into an oddly romanticised past. And it's that, ultimately, which makes me too uneasy about Warhorse's work to be able to recommend it."


It's just a really vague way to explain why they would not recommend a game that is otherwise apparently a good game. One of the people working there might kind of be a bad guy but not really. What are his views then? Isn't it easier to just show it?

I don't buy the "he supports GG" stuff either. There are plenty of people working in the videogames industry who are practicing Catholics who attend religious events on a regular basis. Should we shy away from their games because they support an organisation that perpetuated some horrific crimes?

Should Eurogamer add a little section to their reviews if the lead programmer of This Game is a devout Christian? Since we all know what horrendous crimes the church committed how could they really recommend any game that had supporters of these religions working on them?

If they don't do that then this really just looks like a personal vendetta.

The Specialist

GoldenLynel wrote: »

"Vávra's views on a multitude of subjects are offensive and racist. Defense of his views will be moderated like any other defense of racism. Do not try to find sneaky ways to circumvent this ruling, like singling out Vávra for nonspecific praise or support."

Snowflake mentality 101 right there. I've never heard of that site but thanks for the heads up because it can join Polygon & Kotaku in the list of sites that will never get a visit from me.

Zero-Cool

So this still worth a punt? Think I'll just order online but wanted to check if people got far into yet and how mid/end game looks (gameplay, not story).

Lone Stone

Zero-Cool wrote: »

So this still worth a punt? Think I'll just order online but wanted to check if people got far into yet and how mid/end game looks (gameplay, not story).

i think its a great game but i think on consoles it might be a to restrictive in the saving area and lock picking seems impossible with a controller, i would just wait and keep an eye out for the update to change these two things and then it would be a less frustrating experience, but if your on pc its grand because you can just stick a couple of mods in there.

I am using save any time mod, easy lock picking mod and a carry weight mod because the carry weight was doing my head in.

Zero-Cool

Yeah I saw they were releasing a patch to fix lock picking and improve saving. I would definitely need at least a save on exit. But wouldn't mind giving it a lash over the weekend. Sick of hearing about how fun Henry's adventures are.

Robert ninja

GoldenLynel wrote: »

I don't buy the "he supports GG" stuff either. There are plenty of people working in the videogames industry who are practicing Catholics who attend religious events on a regular basis. Should we shy away from their games because they support an organisation that perpetuated some horrific crimes?

He hasn't denied supporting it and stated he values ethical journalistic practices in gaming media, which pretty much means he's on board. If you think the gg hastag is a harassment campaign then that's just journo lies at work. Even the wikipedia article is absurd propaganda [url][/url]
It's also the anti-GG who harass

J Mysterio

Zero-Cool wrote: »

So this still worth a punt? Think I'll just order online but wanted to check if people got far into yet and how mid/end game looks (gameplay, not story).

I'm really enjoying the game. Ive played about 30 hours on PS4.

The saving really is not a problem. Kill a bandit, sell his shıt and you can afford 4 or 5 Saviour Schnapps. The game also saves during and after quests, and when you sleep in your own bed, so I find I actually use the schnapps seldom enough.

The lockpicking is screwed alright, theres no arguing against that, but that seems to be a minor thing and not a reason to avoid playing.

Ultimately, I think this is a really innovative game in terms of it's setting, approach, tone and mechanics. I think it is a milestone in many respects. It's been crafted with love, and it shows. I would heartily reccomend it.

I think it's a real shame that there has been such a distraction from the actual game to some nonsense about there being no black guys in a Medieval Czech townland.

J Mysterio

Zero-Cool wrote: »

Sick of hearing about how fun Henry's adventures are.

They are very fun. Thinking the Priest of Uschitz quest is probably the funniest and most entertaining i've ever played in a game.

Zero-Cool

J Mysterio wrote: »

Ultimately, I think this is a really innovative game in terms of it's setting, approach, tone and mechanics. I think it is a milestone in many respects. It's been crafted with love, and it shows. I would heartily reccomend it.
.

Order placed, thanks for the feedback lads.

Billy86

Feck this thread anyway, it's getting harder and harder with every post to make myself hold out until some patches and whatnot are released!

Skerries

I kickstarted this but I am going to wait till I finish my current game and then get stuck into it

bigphil2

Ive played about 15hours so far and im taking a break now until the lock picking is patched as im playing henry as a thief and its pointless at the moment..

The Game is incredible though..what is wrong with it can be fixed..

Kirby

bigphil2 wrote: »

Ive played about 15hours so far and im taking a break now until the lock picking is patched as im playing henry as a thief and its pointless at the moment..

The Game is incredible though..what is wrong with it can be fixed..

Go to nexusmods and get the lockpicking mod instead of stopping playing.

Unless...er..console. In which case the next patch will be helping.

bigphil2

Kirby wrote: »

Go to nexusmods and get the lockpicking mod instead of stopping playing.

Unless...er..console. In which case the next patch will be helping.

Yep,im on ps4 pro as my gaming laptop would literally melt if i tried to play the game on it