The history of the Hill

wicklowwonder

I did the Croke Park tour today and it was a great tour but I was very disappointed with how the guide dealt with the history of the Hill.

The TG4 documentary showed us all there is a massive history behind the Hill that the GAA have airbrushed from their history.

http://www.tg4.ie/en/corporate/news-releases/2012/170912.html
http://www.thescore.ie/hill-16-documentary-tg4-602694-Sep2012/

As far as I can see the Hill was built in 1915 and contains no rubble from the 1916 Rising. Called Hill 60 originally after a battle the Royal Dublin Fusilliers fought in World War I. The RDF suffered major losses in that battle and the embankment at the stadium was named after this battle. From the documentary I also seem to remember archaeological digs on The Hill around the time of the renovations also found no rubble from the Rising in the embankment. The Hill was renamed sometime between 1930s and the 50th anniversary of the the 1916 rising and all this history seems to be totally airbrushed from the history books.

The Croke Park website, https://www.crokepark.ie/about/history, even promotes this myth by saying:

"The GAA’s first effort at modernisation was the construction of a terrace area at the northern end of the ground, in what is now Dineen-Hill 16. This was created in 1917 using the rubble from O’Connell Street in Dublin, which had been destroyed in the 1916 Rising"

Does anyone have any more information on the history of the Hill? Is the TG4 documentary and above information true? I would really like to email the GAA and ask them to recognise the true history of the Hill as it is a great story. Also does anyone know where I could get a copy of the TG4 documentary?

Thanks!

keane2097

Why are you assuming the documentary is correct and not the GAA?

wicklowwonder

keane2097 wrote: »

Why are you assuming the documentary is correct and not the GAA?

Because the documentary quoted well respected historians from third level colleges and published authors. Why would you assume a doctor is correct diagnosing an illness over say a lorry driver?

It makes sense the GAA would make up a myth to promote nationalism especially after Bloody Sunday but now that we have moved on as a nation and our WW1 dead should be celebrated we should recognise them in history of our organisations. There is no mention of Hill 60 for example of the GAA site as far as I can see.

Why go you know if the GAA are correct?

keane2097

Not sure why your answer is so aggressive, I had no reason to believe one over the other beyond the notion that it seemed likely the GAA would know about about construction in Croke Park.

I'll leave you to it.

wicklowwonder

keane2097 wrote: »

Not sure why your answer is so aggressive, I had no reason to believe one over the other beyond the notion that it seemed likely the GAA would know about about construction in Croke Park.

I'll leave you to it.

Sorry didn't mean to sound aggressive. The GAA would know about the construction but you can also see the benefit of them spinning a myth about 1916 especially as Dev and maybe even the church got involved. They are a very nationalistic organisation at the end of the day, I am sure a lot of purists still wouldn't like any connection between their stadium and WW1. Irish society in general has a very complex way of looking at our war heroes of WW1.

Coillte_Bhoy

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Sorry didn't mean to sound aggressive. The GAA would know about the construction but you can also see the benefit of them spinning a myth about 1916 especially as Dev and maybe even the church got involved. They are a very nationalistic organisation at the end of the day, I am sure a lot of purists still wouldn't like any connection between their stadium and WW1. Irish society in general has a very complex way of looking at our war heroes of WW1.

Why are they heroes?

wicklowwonder

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Why are they heroes?

This is straying off topic, I really don't want to debate the World War and Irish involvement and if they are heroes or not.

But surely any men that go off and fight for their country in a World War is a war hero? A lot families in Ireland have relatives who fought in WW1 - almost 250,000 Irish people, if memory serves me right, fought in that war. We where part of the United Kingdom for the duration of the World War and even during the 1916 rising we didn't care much on leaving it, the rising itself didn't have much ground support it was only when the British assassinated the leaders of the rising that the nation took notice and the seeds of the War for Independence took growth.

Coillte_Bhoy

wicklowwonder wrote: »

This is straying off topic, I really don't want to debate the World War and Irish involvement and if they are heroes or not.

But surely any men that go off and fight for their country in a World War is a war hero? A lot families in Ireland have relatives who fought in WW1 - almost 250,000 Irish people, if memory serves me right, fought in that war. We where part of the United Kingdom for the duration of the World War and even during the 1916 rising we didn't care much on leaving it, the rising itself didn't have much ground support it was only when the British assassinated the leaders of the rising that the nation took notice and the seeds of the War for Independence took growth.

As you say, it's going off topic, we'll agree to disagree on their 'heroic' status

TCDStudent1

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Sorry didn't mean to sound aggressive. The GAA would know about the construction but you can also see the benefit of them spinning a myth about 1916 especially as Dev and maybe even the church got involved. They are a very nationalistic organisation at the end of the day, I am sure a lot of purists still wouldn't like any connection between their stadium and WW1. Irish society in general has a very complex way of looking at our war heroes of WW1.

Dev disliked the GAA as they prevented him from following rugby. So doubt he would have really done this.

I would be interested in that TG4 documentary though, must check it out.

bruschi

I dont think it was ever denied that it was originally called Hill 60 after Dublin fusiliers who died in Gallipoli in 1914 or 15 or then. It was on some GAA poster I had as a child anyway about it. And not sure how they can definitively disprove material wasnt used from 1916. It would only take one load to give it some credence, so it could be anything.

wicklowwonder

bruschi wrote: »

I dont think it was ever denied that it was originally called Hill 60 after Dublin fusiliers who died in Gallipoli in 1914 or 15 or then. It was on some GAA poster I had as a child anyway about it. And not sure how they can definitively disprove material wasnt used from 1916. It would only take one load to give it some credence, so it could be anything.

Interesting, I couldn't find anything in the museum referring to it as Hill 60 and the guide said she asked the heads of the museum before and some categorically denied any such name and said it wasn't built until 1917. Others said it may be a "local" name but never an official GAA name.

True I suppose about one load but unlikely they would just drop one load there and not more.

bruschi

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Interesting, I couldn't find anything in the museum referring to it as Hill 60 and the guide said she asked the heads of the museum before and some categorically denied any such name and said it wasn't built until 1917. Others said it may be a "local" name but never an official GAA name.

True I suppose about one load but unlikely they would just drop one load there and not more.

There's a chance I have that poster at home somewhere. If I find it I'll scan it for you.

Unlikely it would be one load alright, but point being it would take very little to make the connection to 1916

nxbyveromdwjpg

Did the Sky tour thing in Croke Park before and the guy told us about origin of 'Hill 60'

newbie11

That tg4 documentary on the hill was excellent, thought i had it recorded but someone seems to have wiped it

LeoB

I prefer to believe that the foundations for the original Hill came from from rubble of 1916 whether it be O'Connell St or any other street.

Its part of the folklore legend and contributes hugely to mystic of the stadium and the role the G.A.A. played back from 1912 up to late 1920s when Ireland was recovering from W.W 1, The rising and war of Independence. The ground, I believe, became a great symbol for a lot of Irish people who needed identity, Croke park and the G.A.A gave them both.

For an organisation like the G.A.A. it would have been better for them to have it named 16 rather the 60.

Just my humble thoughts and I am no historian.