B Teams being considered by the FA

Cookiemunster

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

So the best most league 1 teams and league 2 and conference teams will eventually be able to hope for is a season in league one, getting battered by b teams before the inevitable relegation back to League 2. Don't see that as being much of a pyramid.

It will be Premier, Championship, Premier b. The rest. F*cked if most teams want to be "the rest"

Killing the game for the sake of the elite and some pipe dream England might win something again. The same FA that put Aidy Boothroyd in charge of the England under 20 team! Maybe they should look at how England play rather than ripping the heart out of the traditions of English football.

No. If the top 5 teams were B teams, then the 6th and 7th team would be promoted to the championship and 8th to 11th would play off for the last spot. Seeing as they're supposed to be U21 teams and predominantly English, I doubt these teams will ever be filling the top of League 1.

Pro. F

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I'm presuming there will be a maximum of 3 teams promoted each season, it would take a long time to have the effect that it would by placing them in current leagues. I'm sure there will be the opportunity to come back out of the new league once all the "big" clubs are promoted from it, then it might not be so difficult to get out of.

The fact that it will take longer for the B teams to replace the proper teams in the league doesn't change the fact that they will be replacing them.

The fact that the proper teams will have the opportunity to get promoted back to where they want to be doesn't change the fact that they are going to be pushed out of the league by this system.

Do you deny that B teams entering the league will result in fewer clubs being able to sustain professional football?

Pro. F

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

So the best most league 1 teams and league 2 and conference teams will eventually be able to hope for is a season in league one, getting battered by b teams before the inevitable relegation back to League 2. Don't see that as being much of a pyramid.

It will be Premier, Championship, Premier b. The rest. F*cked if most teams want to be "the rest"

Killing the game for the sake of the elite and some pipe dream England might win something again. The same FA that put Aidy Boothroyd in charge of the England under 20 team! Maybe they should look at how England play rather than ripping the heart out of the traditions of English football.

Lol, that is shocking!

Will I Amnt

Pro. F wrote: »

Do you deny that B teams entering the league will result in fewer clubs being able to sustain professional football?

Nope, I was against it from the start as you can see from my first post in this thread.

Will I Amnt wrote: »

It only really benefits a handful of wealthy clubs and is detrimental to many, many more.
I like the idea of it but it just couldn't be put into practice.

All I'm saying is that it's better done this way if it is going to be done.

Guy:Incognito

Cookiemunster wrote: »

No. If the top 5 teams were B teams, then the 6th and 7th team would be promoted to the championship and 8th to 11th would play off for the last spot. Seeing as they're supposed to be U21 teams and predominantly English, I doubt these teams will ever be filling the top of League 1.

What happens if 21 B teams are in League 1 and come 1-21? Instead of being relegated, the 3 bottom teams instead get promoted?

Why don't all those young English players who can't quite make it into the PL early on go and sign for top-tier French, Italian, German, Spanish etc. teams?

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

What happens if 21 B teams are in League 1 and come 1-21? Instead of being relegated, the 3 bottom teams instead get promoted?

Well there's only 20 PL teams so that can't happen. :pac:

Cookiemunster

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

What happens if 21 B teams are in League 1 and come 1-21? Instead of being relegated, the 3 bottom teams instead get promoted?

Some of ye should read the actual proposals.

League 3 made up of 10 B teams and 10 Conference teams. Of the B team squad, 19 of the 25 should be under the age of 21 and 20 of the 25 should qualify for the home-grown rule and no non-EU players allowed.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

Well there's only 20 PL teams so that can't happen. :pac:

Are only premier league teams allowed a B team? Theres 22 teams in the current U21 league, is that staying or going in favour of the B league?

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Of the B team squad, 19 of the 25 should be under the age of 21 and 20 of the 25 should qualify for the home-grown rule and no non-EU players allowed.

Sucks to be a non eu player not getting first team football.

Who are the 10 that get to have B teams?

Beefy78

Agueroooo wrote: »

there are teams in the PL and Championship on the verge of dropping out of the league not so long ago.

these clubs, and their fans lived the dream and got back to were they are today by beating teams in front them, climbing back up the leagues

throwing a bunch of teams from the rich boys into this mix is not exactly fair now imo.

why not just parachute Vittesse Arnhem into the 2nd division

That would be my take on it. There's already talk on my team's forum that people would boycott matches against 'B' teams if it happened - as a lot of people did and still do about MK Dons.

I'm not too worked up about it as I suspect that this has been put in in order to get dropped allowing what they really want to get through. If you read the reports they're also talking about 'strategy loan partners'. That's feeder clubs.

P_1

Right so it's the 20 PL teams who get to enter a 'B' team into this League 3?

Lets say in the 2015/16 season, Barnsley, Leeds and Watford get promoted from the Championship to the Premiership, do they then have to establish a 'B' team for this League 3? Not exactly helpful for a Championship team trying to compete in the Premiership. Then what happens if a team gets relegated from the Premiership, does their 'B' team automatically have to fold?

COYVB

P_1 wrote: »

Right so it's the 20 PL teams who get to enter a 'B' team into this League 3?

No

It's 10 b teams and 10 conference teams making up the league

P_1

COYVB wrote: »

No

It's 10 b teams and 10 conference teams making up the league

Ok, so how are the 10 teams going to be decided? Is it an opt-in or will it be based on league positions?

Agro Head

What if they had two academy teams in league 2. Say Academy North and Academy south. You could have the best young English talent playing together on a weekly basis. That way it wouldn't just be a select few with access to the B team initiative.

CSF

Don't see much wrong with this idea. Prioritising the national team and the development of young English players over League 2 and lower teams is a bit of a no brainer for the FA.

If I was a Grimsby or a Portsmouth fan I obviously wouldn't be happy about it, but it's a necessary evil in terms of a very necessary revamp for English football and development.

You can rarely revamp anything without pissing off somebody.

CSF

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

So the best most league 1 teams and league 2 and conference teams will eventually be able to hope for is a season in league one, getting battered by b teams before the inevitable relegation back to League 2. Don't see that as being much of a pyramid.

It will be Premier, Championship, Premier b. The rest. F*cked if most teams want to be "the rest"

Killing the game for the sake of the elite and some pipe dream England might win something again. The same FA that put Aidy Boothroyd in charge of the England under 20 team! Maybe they should look at how England play rather than ripping the heart out of the traditions of English football.

It's up to those teams to improve to meet the improved level in these leagues. I mean an improved level throughout the pyramid can only be good for English football as a whole, which is what the FA are there to look after, rather than individual clubs. Whether Rochdale are in League 1, 2 or the Blue Square Premier is immaterial really, as long as their fate is decided on the pitch rather than them just being arbitrarily relegated to make numbers fit.

greendom

Do the individual league teams get to vote on whether this happens or not. If not it will never happen unless they are given significant inducements to do so.

CSF

greendom wrote: »

Do the individual league teams get to vote on whether this happens or not. If not it will never happen unless they are given significant inducements to do so.

Doubt it. Can't see why any team outside the Premiership would vote for it, almost every club runs the risk of going at least slightly down the hierarchy so the FA wouldn't even bother mentioning it if it was gonna have to go for a vote, it'd be a complete non-runner.

greendom

CSF wrote: »

Doubt it. Can't see why any team outside the Premiership would vote for it, almost every club runs the risk of going at least slightly down the hierarchy so the FA wouldn't even bother mentioning it if it was gonna have to go for a vote, it'd be a complete non-runner.

The FA is not a dictatorship is it? Surely any new policies will have to be approved by induvidual FA and FL chairmen?

Dozen Wicked Words

CSF wrote: »

It's up to those teams to improve to meet the improved level in these leagues. I mean an improved level throughout the pyramid can only be good for English football as a whole, which is what the FA are there to look after, rather than individual clubs. Whether Rochdale are in League 1, 2 or the Blue Square Premier is immaterial really, as long as their fate is decided on the pitch rather than them just being arbitrarily relegated to make numbers fit.

How exactly do you expect a team in lower leagues conference to improve sufficiently to compete with multi billion pound businesses? Post is delusional.

CSF

greendom wrote: »

The FA is not a dictatorship is it? Surely any new policies will have to be approved by induvidual FA and FL chairmen?

Dictatorship? No, it's run by a committee who make decisions on football on the country. More like a government.

Pro. F

CSF wrote: »

It's up to those teams to improve to meet the improved level in these leagues. I mean an improved level throughout the pyramid can only be good for English football as a whole, which is what the FA are there to look after, rather than individual clubs.

What is best for English football is subjective. Allowing B teams into proper leagues will make the biggest clubs stronger and the majority of clubs weaker. Will it have a significant effect on the quality of English players produced? Maybe.

It's not about the FA helping individual clubs either. The proposed system will harm the opportunities for a certain type of club, that type represents the vast majority of clubs.

CSF wrote: »

Whether Rochdale are in League 1, 2 or the Blue Square Premier is immaterial really, as long as their fate is decided on the pitch rather than them just being arbitrarily relegated to make numbers fit.

That is disingenuous. The league can still be harmed even without arbitrary demotions.

CSF

Pro. F wrote: »

What is best for English football is subjective. Allowing B teams into proper leagues will make the biggest clubs stronger and the majority of clubs weaker. Will it have a significant effect on the quality of English players produced? Maybe.

It's not about the FA helping individual clubs either. The proposed system will harm the opportunities for a certain type of club, that type represents the vast majority of clubs.



That is disingenuous. The league can still be harmed even without arbitrary demotions.

Subjective? Yes. But it's upto the FA to decide what is best and then we can all debate it to out hearts content.

Again, what is good for the league is also subjective. From the FA's perspective it is most likely having the highest possible standard full of English players.

greendom

CSF wrote: »

Dictatorship? No, it's run by a committee who make decisions on football on the country. More like a government.

Do you know who makes up the commitee? Regardless I imagine something as big as this would need to be approved by an overall majority. A referendum, if you will :-)

greendom

CSF wrote: »

Dictatorship? No, it's run by a committee who make decisions on football on the country. More like a government.

Do you know who makes up the commitee? Regardless I imagine something as big as this would need to be approved by an overall majority. A referendum, if you will :-)

CSF

greendom wrote: »

Do you know who makes up the commitee? Regardless I imagine something as big as this would need to be approved by an overall majority. A referendum, if you will :-)

Surely at a time like the present in this country more than any, with the water tax, you would appreciate that a referendum isn't always appropriate.

I'm not particularly familiar with the committee and how they came into their roles though, apart from the top guy.

COYVB

P_1 wrote: »

Ok, so how are the 10 teams going to be decided? Is it an opt-in or will it be based on league positions?

I assume it'll be opt in. Believe it or not, a lot of clubs wouldn't have any interest in it

greendom

CSF wrote: »

Surely at a time like the present in this country more than any, with the water tax, you would appreciate that a referendum isn't always appropriate.

I'm not particularly familiar with the committee and how they came into their roles though, apart from the top guy.

It's not really down to what I think though but to the FA constitutional policies.

I'm sure that when new policies are brought in the whole league would have to agree on them such as 3 points for a win or when automatic relegation and promotion was brought in between the football league and the conference

CSF

greendom wrote: »

It's not really down to what I think though but to the FA constitutional policies.

I'm sure that when new policies are brought in the whole league would have to agree on them such as 3 points for a win or when automatic relegation and promotion was brought in between the football league and the conference

Those were Football League specific issues, this is a much wider thing.

With that said, I'm not 100% sure if it is the case that they can push it through themselves, but I think that if they can find a way, they will, and the fact that they're proposing the idea this publicly when it would almost have no chance of going through a 96 club vote, leads me to believe they've grounds to think they can bypass that.

chrissb8

Please. Everyone elaborate how in this day and age players will get playing time at big money clubs. If it so happens the so called big stars play in this b league, which in all honesty is ridiculous. I can't imagine star players standing to play lower league football. It is a brilliant idea. The players get a competitive league where they can play and keep sharp. The players also get the chance to impress their manager instead of a league cup outing or the last 5 or 10 mins of a match. This is progress. Think of the standard of the leagues below if they had to play football players from man utd or chelsea week in and out. The standard would up and progress and players would be much better. How is there a negative in this? No one is planning on ruining teams it's just a league that is there for b teams that can't win or get promoted. 20 years down the line england could be semi final or final regulars in tournaments.

CSF

chrissb8 wrote: »

Please. Everyone elaborate how in this day and age players will get playing time at big money clubs. If it so happens the so called big stars play in this b league, which in all honesty is ridiculous. I can't imagine star players standing to play lower league football. It is a brilliant idea. The players get a competitive league where they can play and keep sharp. The players also get the chance to impress their manager instead of a league cup outing or the last 5 or 10 mins of a match. This is progress. Think of the standard of the leagues below if they had to play football players from man utd or chelsea week in and out. The standard would up and progress and players would be much better. How is there a negative in this? No one is planning on ruining teams it's just a league that is there for b teams that can't win or get promoted. 20 years down the line england could be semi final or final regulars in tournaments.

They can get promoted, just not to the same league as their A team.

Pro. F

CSF wrote: »

Subjective? Yes. But it's upto the FA to decide what is best and then we can all debate it to out hearts content.

Again, what is good for the league is also subjective. From the FA's perspective it is most likely having the highest possible standard full of English players.

Or we can disagree with what the FA decide is best. Personally I would always doubt whether they understand what effects any decision they make will have.

CSF

Pro. F wrote: »

Or we can disagree with what the FA decide is best. Personally I would always doubt whether they understand what effects any decision they make will have.

People always have the right to disagree.

Pro. F

CSF wrote: »

People always have the right to disagree.

I don't get what point you are trying to argue in this thread.

Skylinehead

CSF wrote: »

If I was a Grimsby or a Portsmouth fan I obviously wouldn't be happy about it, but it's a necessary evil in terms of a very necessary revamp for English football and development.

Why? What's wrong with loaning out players to lower league teams?

The problem with English youth players is plain to see - the coaching standard is dire. Countries like Spain and Germany are leagues ahead in that regard.

On the other hand, the English lower league system is by far the best in the world. Why mess with that?

Kiwi_knock

I am failing to see the connection between B teams and the benefit to the English national team. More English players need to be playing in the PL not in some lower league.

CSF

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't get what point you are trying to argue in this thread.

Have a read of my first 2 posts then, instead of those in a side argument as to whether the FA could push it through without a vote.

Skylinehead wrote: »

Why? What's wrong with loaning out players to lower league teams?

The problem with English youth players is plain to see - the coaching standard is dire. Countries like Spain and Germany are leagues ahead in that regard.

On the other hand, the English lower league system is by far the best in the world. Why mess with that?

There is nothing wrong with loaning out players to lower league teams. I don't think it'd develop a player as well as playing in a team setup as a pathway to the first team (likely setup to play the same style and system) playing competitive football in a really competitive league.

Again, I don't disagree, this is not the carte blanche solution to all of English football's problems, but it is a step in the right direction, even that they are trying to be proactive in ensuring more minutes for English players

lordgoat

Skylinehead wrote: »

Why? What's wrong with loaning out players to lower league teams?

The problem with English youth players is plain to see - the coaching standard is dire. Countries like Spain and Germany are leagues ahead in that regard.

On the other hand, the English lower league system is by far the best in the world. Why mess with that?

I'd imagine the larger clubs would like to develop the team in a highly competitive league and bring the youth team players straight into the senior squad already knowing the system they will be playing etc...

Not sure if i agree with it. I can see both sides.

Underage league is a joke. Not enough games and the standard really varies.

But it's not fair that they get dropped into a league...

CSF

lordgoat wrote: »

I'd imagine the larger clubs would like to develop the team in a highly competitive league and bring the youth team players straight into the senior squad already knowing the system they will be playing etc...

Not sure if i agree with it. I can see both sides.

Underage league is a joke. Not enough games and the standard really varies.

But it's not fair that they get dropped into a league...

They're getting dropped into the very bottom level of the Football League.

greendom

CSF wrote: »

They're getting dropped into the very bottom level of the Football League.

Which us still in the upper echelons of the pyramid

Guy:Incognito

CSF wrote: »

They're getting dropped into the very bottom level of the Football League.

Which is a lot higher than any other newly formed team has to join at.

Whats happening to the existing U21 league? Do the 10 teams just take their teams out of that to form the B teams and the league carries on with 12 teams?

Skylinehead

Skylinehead wrote: »

Why? What's wrong with loaning out players to lower league teams?

The problem with English youth players is plain to see - the coaching standard is dire. Countries like Spain and Germany are leagues ahead in that regard.

On the other hand, the English lower league system is by far the best in the world. Why mess with that?

Exactly. As I said, why can't young English go abroad to France or Germany or Spain or Italy or Holland or Portugal? The answer is obvious and it isn't because the big teams don't have enough players.

Skylinehead

CSF wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with loaning out players to lower league teams. I don't think it'd develop a player as well as playing in a team setup as a pathway to the first team (likely setup to play the same style and system) playing competitive football in a really competitive league.

I see the advantage in that, but I really don't think it's worth what it will cost.

Again, I don't disagree, this is not the carte blanche solution to all of English football's problems, but it is a step in the right direction, even that they are trying to be proactive in ensuring more minutes for English players

All this will achieve is that the biggest clubs in England get bigger. The setting up of B teams is going to make the big clubs less likely to loan out players to lower clubs, which will further the gap between the B teams and the actual lower clubs. All while missing the actual problem.

CSF

Skylinehead wrote: »

I see the advantage in that, but I really don't think it's worth what it will cost.



All this will achieve is that the biggest clubs in England get bigger. The setting up of B teams is going to make the big clubs less likely to loan out players to lower clubs, which will further the gap between the B teams and the actual lower clubs. All while missing the actual problem.

I would wager that the FA want the biggest clubs in England to get bigger though. Rather than the likes of Barca, Real and Bayern (who all have B teams) leaving them behind. The FA are already quite fair to the other teams in terms of spreading around the TV rights etc.

Is it a controversial opinion to think the majority of Premiership B teams wouldn't be good enough to make League 1?

SantryRed

Does anyone know how the B teams work in Spain regarding players going up and down between teams? I'm pretty sure it's a lot more regulated and it's not as easy for clubs to drop a player down for just one game and then bring him back up?

CSF

SantryRed wrote: »

Does anyone know how the B teams work in Spain regarding players going up and down between teams? I'm pretty sure it's a lot more regulated and it's not as easy for clubs to drop a player down for just one game and then bring him back up?

It definitely needs to be this way here, only upward movement should be allowed.

COYVB

greendom wrote: »

Which us still in the upper echelons of the pyramid

But it's also creating 10 more spots in the football league for current non league sides.

I assume the b teams wouldn't be allowed into the league or fa cups?

COYVB

SantryRed wrote: »

Does anyone know how the B teams work in Spain regarding players going up and down between teams? I'm pretty sure it's a lot more regulated and it's not as easy for clubs to drop a player down for just one game and then bring him back up?

I always assumed both teams functioned as individual entities, with separate player registrations etc. so you can't do what you say, but you CAN loan a player out to them during the season for a deal with the same restrictions as a loan to any other club.

That's just my assumption though

greendom

The FA needs approval from the majority of Championship clubs and the majority of League One and League Two clubs – as well as two-thirds of Premier League clubs.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/news/10818297/Greg-Dykes-B-team-plan-is-greeted-with-instant-derision-amid-moves-to-shake-up-the-English-game.html

Wonder how Dyke plans to get around turkeys not generally being in favour of Christmas

There is talk of financial inducements. I imagine they will need to be substantial and long-term. This will probably be enough to turn Premier League chairmen off the idea.

PhlegmyMoses

One of the problems facing young English talent at the moment is that there is too much at stake financially for the top clubs to allow them to play and develop. If they aren't insta-good, they're back to the bench.

18-22 is probably the most formative period in a footballer's transition from decent young talent to first team regular. The top talent in the country tend to play for the biggest club in their area and these clubs tend not to risk playing these kids.

All of these good young players then stagnate once they sign their professional forms and only get the odd CC game or dead rubber PL game, developing very little game intelligence, getting very little experience and losing belief in their own abilities as there is no real path for them to the first team or competitive football unless they leave. And the only way is down once you leave these clubs, right? So they stay on.

When was the last time a top player came through at Liverpool, United, Chelsea, City, even at Arsenal? Why are they so few and far between? Surely these top teams have the pick of the young talent in their local areas and abroad and have the best coaches to teach them how to do things the right way? So why is it so hard for them to make the transition? I genuinely believe that a lot of it is down to stagnation and lack of competitive football between 18 and 22 and the massive effect it has on them.

I think that there's a decent amount of lost potential talent there and that this idea may help with bridging this gap. I like the idea of two leagues running simultaneously with playoffs at the end for the first while.