Manchester United Superthread 2014 mod warning #8081

bucketybuck

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Yes, but the only thing the same as last summer so far is we haven't signed anyone before the window opens.

Whats also the same as last summer is the fact that we badly, badly needed to have deals done early, before the WC and before the window opened. And just like last summer we have not done so.

Timmyctc

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Why wouldn't they? It would be up to the clubs to agree a fair price for the option. The guy's in rehab at the moment with an ACL injury. Why buy him for £20m now? Going the option route could suit all sides.

EDIT: Maybe UEFA / The FA don't allow it as call options constitute an ability to control from a legal perspective.

Because the buying club would be buying out the player's negotiated release fee for a fraction of it's actual cost. In the case of them not having a release fee they're still attempting to insert a first option clause which generally doesn't go at face value when they are being negotiated into contracts.

Why would the selling club even want to do that though? Espcially for a player who costs 20 or so. Its not even one of those structured deals of x sum now and y sum for so many weeks until whole.

Its a tiny sum now then the player remains in limbo with the club and presumably subsequent offers from other clubs will have to be rejected if United have the option to pay the remainder of his transfer fee and just get him.

adox

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

just to clarify I have not said any of the above and dont have a problem with those negatuve comment.

I would be short sighted if I did as I shared most of those opinions last summer.

But that was a summer under different circumstances and rules.

Yeah sorry Kew, should have added that I wasn't implying you yourself had said any of those things. I just started typing a reply to your post to say there was nothing wrong with being positive and also nothing wrong with being negative.

The rest of the post just evolved from there but wasn't referring to you at all.

newballsplease

I was gonna say as someone pointed out... Why havent we sold anyone yet?

The_Kew_Tour

adox wrote: »

Yeah sorry Kew, should have added that I wasn't implying you yourself had said any of those things. I just started typing a reply to your post to say there was nothing wrong with being positive and also nothing wrong with being negative.

The rest of the post just evolved from there but wasn't referring to you at all.

no worries mate, I knew ya meant it in that way, just wanted clarify that I dont have problem with others being worried.

tallaghtmick wrote: »

So who can we see leaving the club?

hard to know, but maybe Chico or not be surprised to see Young gone, but unlikely.

bucketybuck

newballsplease wrote: »

I was gonna say as someone pointed out... Why havent we sold anyone yet?

Because we have very few players that would be attractive to other clubs. Agents will have to call in a lot of favors to engineers deals for the likes of Young or Valencia.

Lord TSC

bucketybuck wrote: »

Whats also the same as last summer is the fact that we badly, badly needed to have deals done early, before the WC and before the window opened. And just like last summer we have not done so.

No. No, we didn't need that. We wanted that. Big difference.

Larry Wildman

Timmyctc wrote: »

Because the buying club would be buying out the player's negotiated release fee for a fraction of it's actual cost. In the case of them not having a release fee they're still attempting to insert a first option clause which generally doesn't go at face value when they are being negotiated into contracts.

Why would the selling club even want to do that though? Espcially for a player who costs 20 or so. Its not even one of those structured deals of x sum now and y sum for so many weeks until whole.

Its a tiny sum now then the player remains in limbo with the club and presumably subsequent offers from other clubs will have to be rejected if United have the option to pay the remainder of his transfer fee and just get him.

Okay, picture this scenario...

- Kevin Strootman is badly injured.

- Roma are willing to sell him for £20m.

- United are interested in signing him.

What's the problem with United paying Roma (say) £2m for an option to buy the player at £20m on or before 31 August 2015?

DARK-KNIGHT

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Okay, picture this scenario...

- Kevin Strootman is badly injured.

- Roma are willing to sell him for £20m.

- United are interested in signing him.

What's the problem with United paying Roma (say) £2m for an option to buy the player at £20m on or before 31 August 2015?

No club would actually accept those terms come on you must be wiser than that...

so strootman plays for us for a year and near the end of year he destroys his knee or gets very gravely ill so roma are left with a crock and united had his services for 2 million

duffman13

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

No club would actually accept those terms come on you must be wiser than that...

so strootman plays for us for a year and near the end of year he destroys his knee or gets very gravely ill so roma are left with a crock and united had his services for 2 million

He's talking about paying 2 million for a first option clause basically. You are describing a loan with an option to buy which is a lot more common

keane2097

Still think it's mad how many people don't seem to realise LVG probably doesn't give a **** that United fans want to win the treble next year by spending 200 million.

duffman13

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Okay, picture this scenario...

- Kevin Strootman is badly injured.

- Roma are willing to sell him for £20m.

- United are interested in signing him.

What's the problem with United paying Roma (say) £2m for an option to buy the player at £20m on or before 31 August 2015?

I know where your coming from in that Roma get some funds even if it turns out he is crocked. I'd say there is merits in having a first option clause however I can't see Roma agreeing to a set fee. Rather they will just give United first option ie match any offer they receive and United get preference.

I think leave him off for 6 months and if he gets back to his best then pay the extra couple of million. We really can't afford another Hargreaves waddling around. Always wondering what might have been if he could stay fit

The_Kew_Tour

keane2097 wrote: »

Still think it's mad how many people don't seem to realise LVG probably doesn't give a **** that United fans want to win the treble next year by spending 200 million.

well for starters we cant win the treble next year.;)

duffman13

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

well for starters we cant win the treble next year.;)

Whoa we could do a domestic treble!! Wash your mouth out

tallaghtmick

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

well for starters we cant win the treble next year.;)

Wellllllll the domestic treble we could :pac:

The_Kew_Tour

duffman13 wrote: »

Whoa we could do a domestic treble!! Wash your mouth out

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Wellllllll the domestic treble we could :pac:

its not the same and ye know it;)

homerjay2005

newballsplease wrote: »

I was gonna say as someone pointed out... Why havent we sold anyone yet?

4 of our squad are already gone, Rio, Vidic, Giggs and Macheda. i guess LVG prob sees this as a considerable chunk of players gone and wants to assess the rest of them before agreeing to sell more.

the other side of that of course is that nobody wants them or more to the point, their wages and the fees we want are too high.

DM_7

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Okay, picture this scenario...

- Kevin Strootman is badly injured.

- Roma are willing to sell him for £20m.

- United are interested in signing him.

What's the problem with United paying Roma (say) £2m for an option to buy the player at £20m on or before 31 August 2015?

Assuming Strootman would be happy to agree to move to United at a later date over any other club in the world, that Roma see no reason that his value may go up, that that Roma were happy to give Strootman permission to talk to another club to agree personal terms and they see him giving all his effort to Roma while basically waiting for a club to activate a buy option then it could work.

Hidalgo

newballsplease wrote: »

I was gonna say as someone pointed out... Why havent we sold anyone yet?

A lot of the players UTD will want rid of are 'deadwood', but its easier said than done in moving these players on.

Take the likes of Ashley Young, UTD might want to sell him and may be willing to take a cut price to do so, but Young will more than likely have to take a big hit on wages at a new club, therefore less anxious to leave.

Lord TSC

We should also take on board the fact that there's been very, very few transfers among ANY Premier League team so far. A lot of teams are spinning their wheels currently, not just United, despite how many feel about what we're doing.

Post-WC, I think a lot of clubs will start doing a lot of business. Hopefully, we'll shift a few then.

bucketybuck

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

No. No, we didn't need that. We wanted that. Big difference.

Yes, yes, we did need that. No, no, this is not just some supporters desire to see a big name paraded in front of the cameras just because, there are very valid reasons why United could and should have been making sure their transfer business was completed early.

There are valid reasons why this hasn't happened, but that doesn't change the fact that it is far more need than it is want.

Mitch Connor

keane2097 wrote: »

Still think it's mad how many people don't seem to realise LVG probably doesn't give a **** that United fans want to win the treble next year by spending 200 million.

still think it is mad how people can come on this thread and act like that is what united fans are calling for.

Lord TSC

bucketybuck wrote: »

Yes, yes, we did need that. No, no, this is not just some supporters desire to see a big name paraded in front of the cameras just because, there are very valid reasons why United could and should have been making sure their transfer business was completed early.

There are valid reasons why this hasn't happened, but that doesn't change the fact that it is far more need than it is want.

Ok, so outline to me exactly why we needed it; what are he differences between signing someone two weeks ago verses two weeks from now?

Lord TSC

Reports that LVG is demanding changes to Carrington.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2651382/Louis-van-Gaal-orders-training-pitches-ripped-Dutch-boss-rings-changes-Old-Trafford.html

Wants the Desso Grass-Master system implemented straight away (same pitches that are already used at OT) and floodlights installed for afternoon winter training sessions.

hufpc8w3adnk65

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Reports that LVG is demanding changes to Carrington.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2651382/Louis-van-Gaal-orders-training-pitches-ripped-Dutch-boss-rings-changes-Old-Trafford.html

Wants the Desso Grass-Master system implemented straight away (same pitches that are already used at OT) and floodlights installed for afternoon winter training sessions.

Surely just relaying 1 pitch and floodlighting it will be enough before the season starts?

Mitch Connor

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Reports that LVG is demanding changes to Carrington.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2651382/Louis-van-Gaal-orders-training-pitches-ripped-Dutch-boss-rings-changes-Old-Trafford.html

Wants the Desso Grass-Master system implemented straight away (same pitches that are already used at OT) and floodlights installed for afternoon winter training sessions.

Floodlights make sense, I can see the club pushing back on the pitches though - we've only just installed some of them.

bucketybuck

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Ok, so outline to me exactly why we needed it; what are he differences between signing someone two weeks ago verses two weeks from now?

Well I'm not getting into a word parsing, gotcha situation which you seem to be angling for, and you know damn well that I am not talking about "two weeks ago verses two weeks from now" so you can stuff that bull****. :rolleyes:

But there are very valid reasons why United should have been making their transfer moves strong and making them early, the first of which is the simple scale of the changes needed. We do not need one or two players to improve the team, we need five or six to get back even close to where we were. Its difficult enough to make wholesale changes with the whole summer to do it in, it becomes exponentially more difficult the less time you have remaining. Fact is if it comes to the last month of the window and we don't have multiple players in then it won't happen in that last month. We will end up with one or two players and looking towards a very difficult season.

It was said multiple times in here back in January that we were leaving ourselves a lot of work to do transfer wise in the summer. That was then, but that work is still no closer to completion.

Another incredibly obvious problem is perception, not from us but from other players. We are a stumbling giant with huge issues to address and without any European football. We want the best players but are the best players going to come to us? Not as it stands, they see a team that isn't going to compete with City and isn't in the European cup. What would help massively is the signing of some marquee players to make us more attractive, if we had arranged a big signing and announced him early than we are no longer a club in turmoil but a club that had a bad season but was now heading in the right direction. Players are human, if they see that other big names are heading to United then that will affect their own decisions and their perception of the club. We could have presented ourselves as a strong confident club going places, but as yet we are still a club in turmoil going cap in hand to the likes of Fabregas.

Perception also applies to the existing staff. They ****ed up last season and they didn't do the work needed. Because of that they should have been working towards this window from months back, but if they were they have nothing to show for it. The pressure is only going to mount as time goes by and that leads to bad decisions, like buying Felliani, or trying to get a Cavani when he isn't needed. If they had signings in place and announced early then supporters, the media, other potential signings all give them a lot more benefit of the doubt.

Nothing I have written is particularly new but that was the point I made, there was definitely a need for United to make signings and make them early. Not a club threatening need but a need all the same, and it should have been done.

You seem to want to say that getting business done early would have been nice but not too important. My point simply is that it was important, it would have counted, and it was something we needed to do.

DM_7

bucketybuck wrote: »

Another incredibly obvious problem is perception, not from us but from other players. We are a stumbling giant with huge issues to address and without any European football. We want the best players but are the best players going to come to us? Not as it stands, they see a team that isn't going to compete with City and isn't in the European cup. What would help massively is the signing of some marquee players to make us more attractive, if we had arranged a big signing and announced him early than we are no longer a club in turmoil but a club that had a bad season but was now heading in the right direction. Players are human, if they see that other big names are heading to United then that will affect their own decisions and their perception of the club. We could have presented ourselves as a strong confident club going places, but as yet we are still a club in turmoil going cap in hand to the likes of Fabregas.
.

bucketybuck

DM-ICE wrote: »

Why the confusion? Do you not agree that the completed signings of people like Shaw or Carvalho would be a sign to the likes of Kroos and Vidal that we mean business?

DM_7

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why the confusion? Do you not agree that the completed signings of people like Shaw or Carvalho would be a sign to the likes of Kroos and Vidal that we mean business?

There is the confusion, I didn't get how top players not wanting to join United could be fixed by signing marquee names early since I thought marquee names were top players.


As it goes I would expect removing Moyes and getting Louis van Gaal in would have shown United mean business this summer and made the club more attractive as he is a genuine marquee name in football.

Lord TSC

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why the confusion? Do you not agree that the completed signings of people like Shaw or Carvalho would be a sign to the likes of Kroos and Vidal that we mean business?

I don't think the signing of some kids will have any bearing on what Kroos or Vidal think of United tbh; if our history and wage packet can't convince them to join, the signing of Southampton's young left back who probably is completely unknown outside Ireland and England will do nothing to help...

Well I'm not getting into a word parsing, gotcha situation which you seem to be angling for, and you know damn well that I am not talking about "two weeks ago verses two weeks from now" so you can stuff that bull****.

Ah, here. I'm sorry if that offends you so. I was simply asking a genuine question, and will reword it if you want; you want to say we need deals done quick, but whats the efficiency when dealing with speed.

You answer the question in the rest of your post, so I'm sorry if my wording of the question offended you :rolleyes:

But there are very valid reasons why United should have been making their transfer moves strong and making them early, the first of which is the simple scale of the changes needed. We do not need one or two players to improve the team, we need five or six to get back even close to where we were. Its difficult enough to make wholesale changes with the whole summer to do it in, it becomes exponentially more difficult the less time you have remaining. Fact is if it comes to the last month of the window and we don't have multiple players in then it won't happen in that last month. We will end up with one or two players and looking towards a very difficult season.

I'd personally see no reason why we couldn't do multiple deals in a short amount of time. We have a large department presumably who work on multiple deals simultaneously; if the press are to be believed, there are 100 deals in the works right now :P

I agree scale needs to be examined and there's quite a bit of work to be done, but I think you're overestimating why that work will be hard. I don't see at all how time = quality in this scenario. I don't personally think there's a countdown where the closer we get to the deadline, the less money we have to spend or the harder it will be. Time will not increase difficulty.

Another incredibly obvious problem is perception, not from us but from other players. [...]

As mentioned above, the primary draws for players will be money and history, not how quickly we've fixed things. If we throw vasts amount of money at the players LVG wants, we'll get them; City, Chelsea, Monaco...if teams promise the world to players and back it up financially, they'll get the right type of player.

We're also only a few weeks into making a massive attempt to fix that negative perception by sacking our useless manager and appointing one with a massively impressive CV. A wide array of players and critics have praised that decision, and LVG is obviously a well-respected manager who has had big names talking highly of him.

Perception also applies to the existing staff. They ****ed up last season and they didn't do the work needed. [...]

"They" weren't even there last season; we're in the middle of an overhaul to the staff responsible for transfer decisions. Moyes and his team and his decisions are gone. "They", LVG and his backroom staff, haven't even got their offices set up yet, so at least give them a chance to do that before we start talking about how they've ****ed up.

Meanwhile, it also strikes me that LVG's perception is that United are PL winners and he intends to get us back up there. If there's one thing I adore about him, it's his perception of what the club should be expecting and his own ability to get us there.

Nothing I have written is particularly new but that was the point I made, there was definitely a need for United to make signings and make them early. Not a club threatening need but a need all the same, and it should have been done.

You seem to want to say that getting business done early would have been nice but not too important. My point simply is that it was important, it would have counted, and it was something we needed to do.

Agree there's a need for signings, but still see nothing to convince me that the signings were NEEDED quickly. We need to get the transfer window right, and I have a huge feeling that will involve LVG coming in full time, and starting work himself as well. It would have been phenomenal to get the business done quickly, but once it gets done, then I couldn't care less how quickly it all went.

Larry Wildman

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

No club would actually accept those terms come on you must be wiser than that...

so strootman plays for us for a year and near the end of year he destroys his knee or gets very gravely ill so roma are left with a crock and united had his services for 2 million

As others have pointed out, he wouldn't be playing for United - He'd be playing for Roma.

homerjay2005

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I'd personally see no reason why we couldn't do multiple deals in a short amount of time. We have a large department presumably who work on multiple deals simultaneously;

errm, its been a long time since we completed multiple big deals in a short space of time. there is no reason to suggest we can do it.

Lord TSC

homerjay2005 wrote: »

errm, its been a long time since we completed multiple big deals in a short space of time. there is no reason to suggest we can do it.

Not having done something recently =/= not being able to do something.

Mitch Connor

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Not having done something recently =/= not being able to do something.

but the reason to believe we can't is evidence given by last summer. You are basing your opinion on nothing at all.

Woodward himself said that their negotiations with Rooney last summer hampered our abilities to do deals elsewhere, so clear based on what Woodward said United do indeed have issues with dealing with more than one high level player/agent at a time.

homerjay2005

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Not having done something recently =/= not being able to do something.

thats one of the most baffling attempts at logic ive ever seen on this thread. you made a statement about seeing no reason we cant do something, ive given you one yet you still keep going with complete nonsense.

Lord TSC

Mitch Connor wrote: »

but the reason to believe we can't is evidence given by last summer. You are basing your opinion on nothing at all.

Woodward himself said that their negotiations with Rooney last summer hampered our abilities to do deals elsewhere, so clear based on what Woodward said United do indeed have issues with dealing with more than one high level player/agent at a time.

Last summer was one window. In other years, we have always bought exactly what we needed to buy (and I'll expand here; "needed" refers to getting in what Fergie needed to win the league, not nessecarily what we needed for the future or in terms of "fixing the problems").

Last summer was bad, but there's no proof whatsoever to lead to the belief that every summer henceforth will be identical, just because 4 weeks in we have no one bought.

As for the Woodward thing, did he? Not being smart, but can I get a source there? I remember reading they spent time on it, and were surprised it didn't get more positive feedback when they held on to him, but I never remember "Woodward himself said that their negotiations with Rooney last summer hampered our abilities to do deals elsewhere". Any chance I can read that somewhere so I can amend my stance on how the Rooney situation affected our window?

Also, it's a good thing then that stumbling block won't exist this summer either

homerjay2005 wrote: »

thats one of the most baffling attempts at logic ive ever seen on this thread. you made a statement about seeing no reason we cant do something, ive given you one yet you still keep going with complete nonsense.

Fair enough. I personally think...

"We didn't do it last summer, ergo we are incapable of doing it"

...is far worse logic than...

"Just because we didn't do it last summer doesn't mean we are completely incapable of doing it at all."

The first feels rather sensationalist, trying to base the logic on an instance of failure in an attempt to build a picture of ineptitude.

Vic Vinegar

There's a few reports around of talks with Barca for Sanchez.

Would be very happy if we got him.

The_Kew_Tour

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

There's a few reports around of talks with Barca for Sanchez.

Would be very happy if we got him.

with Reus a non runner I be happy to get Sanchez now. we need a quality player with pace if we could

keane2097

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

well for starters we cant win the treble next year.;)

You know what I meant you bolllllllllocks

Schwiiing

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

with Reus a non runner I be happy to get Sanchez now. we need a quality player with pace if we could

:mad:

The_Kew_Tour

keane2097 wrote: »

You know what I meant you bolllllllllocks

I know, I know:D

Just on Sanchez rumour where is it coming from. I would believe it myself.

DM_7

Sanchez talk is from Italy.

Juve want him but are trying to get him cheap.

He would be fantastic for United so I hope there is truth to the stories but I am skeptical.

homerjay2005

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Last summer was one window. In other years, we have always bought exactly what we needed to buy (and I'll expand here; "needed" refers to getting in what Fergie needed to win the league, not nessecarily what we needed for the future or in terms of "fixing the problems").

the last time we had a great summer was in 2007. since then, apart from 2 or 3 exceptions our transfer windows have been average to appalling, with the last 12 months being the worst.

the brilliance or 3 or 4 players each season has papered over alot of cracks in our first 11 for the past 5 years, when they were off form or injured last season, we were badly exposed. our football has been very poor since 2009 season and this is down to signing the types of players you are talking about.

there is a fundamental problem with our approach to transfers in the club, we just seem incapable of getting in top world class players quickly. maybe LVG can be the man to change that, but so far it appears he favours promoting from within (and ill stretch this to his dutch team now also).

id say Shaw will be tied up before preseason starts, we will sign two relatively unproven Dutch players before end of July and a center back will follow. by all measures, that would be another disappointing summer and as ive said a couple of times, i genuinly believe there is an attitude within the club that the players blame everything on Moyes and they all just expect everthing to fall back into place next year, without us signing more than 1 or max 2, top players.

Lord TSC

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the last time we had a great summer was in 2007. since then, apart from 2 or 3 exceptions our transfer windows have been average to appalling, with the last 12 months being the worst.

the brilliance or 3 or 4 players each season has papered over alot of cracks in our first 11 for the past 5 years, when they were off form or injured last season, we were badly exposed. our football has been very poor since 2009 season and this is down to signing the types of players you are talking about.

None of that changes what I said; with the exception of last year, we've always done what was needed to be challenging strongly for the title. We may have played "bad" football, but it doesn't change the fact that since 2007 (our last "great" window as you said), we won the league 5 times and came 2nd twice.

With the exception of last year, we've always done what we needed to do to win the league. Last year was the abnormality, not the norm.

there is a fundamental problem with our approach to transfers in the club, we just seem incapable of getting in top world class players quickly. maybe LVG can be the man to change that, but so far it appears he favours promoting from within (and ill stretch this to his dutch team now also).

No clubs can get in "Top world class players" quickly. It took Real Madrid most of the summer to get Bale. Chelsea flirted with Rooney all summer last year, and have taken years to bring in a genuine top level striker. Pool are going to struggle to get in a replacement for Suarez if he goes. Arsenal have signed one top player in how many years.

it's not United who struggle with WC talent; if a player falls into that category, the team who have them are obviously going to get as much time as possible. Trying to blame United and hold it against them that they can't get top level talent quickly is crazy, since loads of teams have that trouble.

id say Shaw will be tied up before preseason starts, we will sign two relatively unproven Dutch players before end of July and a center back will follow. by all measures, that would be another disappointing summer and as ive said a couple of times, i genuinly believe there is an attitude within the club that the players blame everything on Moyes and they all just expect everthing to fall back into place next year, without us signing more than 1 or max 2, top players.

Shaw, 2 Dutch players and a center back would be a solid window to me, and trying to paint that as a poor window is crazy to me. That sort of window would fix the big problems in a big way, and combined with LVG's philosophy and ability, I'd be confident of an easy top 4 after that window.

kryogen

Not convinced Sanchez would be a good fit for the Premier League

tallaghtmick

kryogen wrote: »

Not convinced Sanchez would be a good fit for the Premier League

Why not?

K4t

Welbeck and Rooney lining up against Honduras tonight.

Rooney playing in behind Sturridge again..

homerjay2005

where would Sanchez even play for us!? we still have 4 other holes in our first 11 to fill before signings like Sanchez and even before we sign more attacking players, you could argue that its even 5 if not 6 players needed.

CM1
CM2
CB1
LB

then another CB and back up RB though we can probably manage without another defender until next season assuming we were to sign two this year and promote Keane and either Varela/Janko but there is no guarantee they are anywhere near good enough.

DM_7

Someone like Sanchez would bring pace and goals from wide positions. That is something United need as much as a cb and two cms.