Manchester United Superthread 2014 mod warning #8081

onemorechance

The original source for the Shaw 160k deal seems to be Wayne Veysey of Goal, and it's only the other least reliable sources that are picking up on it, Metro, Bleacher Report, The Express, HTC . . .

The amount seems excessive, but I'm hoping there is truth in the report that terms have been agreed at least.

Veysey strongly hinting also that Chelsea are about to seal the Fabregas deal.

Like he says, if Luiz is or was sold for £40m and Fabregas is available for less than £30m, no fee or wage amounts will surprise in this transfer window.

onemorechance

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I don't think anyone was blameless, especially Pogba and his agent. But I would agree Fergie has to shoulder some of the blame for the poor way his playing time was handled.

There might be some blame of SAF, hard to say from the outside, but he deserves the benefit of the doubt after all his years of success.

He had a philosophy throughout his time and it worked pretty much all the time, so I guess he wasn't going to break it for anyone.

MagicIRL

HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE HONESTLY BELIEVE THERE IS EVEN A HINT OF TRUTH TO THESE CLICK BAIT ****E MERCHANTS? IT BOGGLES MY FREAKING MIND!

Maximus Alexander

MagicIRL wrote: »

HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE HONESTLY BELIEVE THERE IS EVEN A HINT OF TRUTH TO THIS CLICK BAIT ****E MERCHANTS? IT BOGGLES MY FREAKING MIND!

No need to shout Aciiiiiiiiiiid.

Robson99

onemorechance wrote: »

He had a philosophy throughout his time and it worked pretty much all the time, so I guess he wasn't going to break it for anyone.

Fergie always believed in giving youth a chance. Except when it came to Pogba. Could never figure it out

onemorechance

Robson99 wrote: »

Fergie always believed in giving youth a chance. Except when it came to Pogba. Could never figure it out

I think he was not happy with his attitude, maybe he was too arrogant or something and SAF wanted him to be a lose a bit of that.

Mitch Connor

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I don't think anyone was blameless, especially Pogba and his agent. But I would agree Fergie has to shoulder some of the blame for the poor way his playing time was handled.

I thought Pogba was reportedly 'a bit mad in the head / Diva' and Fergie could not be arsed micro-managing him?

It is regrettable that he left on a free, but buying him back would be a awful sickener.

keane2097

Ferguson was crap at managing young players in a lot of the second half of his career. He sent loads of very talented players out on lolbad loans where they didn't get a kick, and his version of "development" for those that stayed at United was to never play them even when it meant playing senior player bizarrely out of position instead, or if he did play them make it in a position they're not comfortable in as often as possible.

Rafael playing CM, Scholes coming out of retirement etc., if I was a kid as talented as Pogba conversations with my agent would have been along the lines of "this old **** hasn't a clue, get me out of here and I'll be top 5 in Europe this time next year".

Leftist

keane2097 wrote: »

Ferguson was crap at managing young players in a lot of the second half of his career. He sent loads of very talented players out on lolbad loans where they didn't get a kick, and his version of "development" for those that stayed at United was to never play them even when it meant playing senior player bizarrely out of position instead, or if he did play them make it in a position they're not comfortable in as often as possible.

not sure about this. Even the class of 92 were in their early 20s by 1995 iirc.

he also bled in Ronaldo and Rooney to great affect during the second half of his united career.

Chico, Smalling, Jones, De Gea, Rafael, all young players given a chance.

He hated the attitude of Pogba and Morrison hence why he didn't continue with them. Not a question of not trusting youth.

Timmyctc

keane2097 wrote: »

Ferguson was crap at managing young players in a lot of the second half of his career. He sent loads of very talented players out on lolbad loans where they didn't get a kick, and his version of "development" for those that stayed at United was to never play them even when it meant playing senior player bizarrely out of position instead, or if he did play them make it in a position they're not comfortable in as often as possible.

Rafael playing CM, Scholes coming out of retirement etc., if I was a kid as talented as Pogba conversations with my agent would have been along the lines of "this old **** hasn't a clue, get me out of here and I'll be top 5 in Europe this time next year".

Tbf. Scholes came out of retirement and absolutely bossed it.

Will I Amnt

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Is there generally a correlation between transfer fee and wages?
Wouldn't the wage range that some suggested (£60/70K pw) put him amongst the lowest paid of £25M players?

That would be offset by the correlation between age and wages. £60/70K would have him right at the top end if not the very top for players still in their teens.

keane2097

Timmyctc wrote: »

Tbf. Scholes came out of retirement and absolutely bossed it.

The way Pogba has bossed it since joining Juventus or just the "United midfield is so bad that any improvement will do" type of bossing?

Winston Payne

Are we going to be going over Pogba in 2020 lads?

keane2097

Leftist wrote: »

not sure about this. Even the class of 92 were in their early 20s by 1995 iirc.

he also bled in Ronaldo and Rooney to great affect during the second half of his united career.

Chico, Smalling, Jones, De Gea, Rafael, all young players given a chance.

He hated the attitude of Pogba and Morrison hence why he didn't continue with them. Not a question of not trusting youth.

Bled in Ronaldo. Grand. Presumably it would have been possible to **** that one up but might have taken a fair bit.

Rooney was stifled by Ferguson for a lot of his career. Another example of a player being routinely played out of position, has had most of his success despite Ferguson rather than because of him.

Smalling and Jones are on the cusp of being ruined mainly due to being played out of position IMO.

Rafael hasn't improved notably in five years, still makes the same mistakes he did as a youngster albeit he's a decent player.

De Gea laughably mismanaged by Ferguson early on, him being dropped for Lindegaard was a joke.

Not convinced really.

Backstreet Moyes

Leftist wrote: »

not sure about this. Even the class of 92 were in their early 20s by 1995 iirc.

he also bled in Ronaldo and Rooney to great affect during the second half of his united career.

Chico, Smalling, Jones, De Gea, Rafael, all young players given a chance.

He hated the attitude of Pogba and Morrison hence why he didn't continue with them. Not a question of not trusting youth.

Smalling was developed poorly.

Jones was developed poorly.

De Gea cost 18 million and was a quality young keeper.

Rafael i agree with.

Chico yes he done alright with.

bangkok

keane2097 wrote: »

Ferguson was crap at managing young players in a lot of the second half of his career. He sent loads of very talented players out on lolbad loans where they didn't get a kick, and his version of "development" for those that stayed at United was to never play them even when it meant playing senior player bizarrely out of position instead, or if he did play them make it in a position they're not comfortable in as often as possible.

Rafael playing CM, Scholes coming out of retirement etc., if I was a kid as talented as Pogba conversations with my agent would have been along the lines of "this old **** hasn't a clue, get me out of here and I'll be top 5 in Europe this time next year".

what a pile of crap, he developed loads of players and turned Ronaldo into one of the best players to ever play the game.

and this crack of fergie let pogba go, it was ferguson who wanted him to sign the 30k contract on offer but he wanted a lot more money and Juve were giving him a 2m signing on fee. any time pogba did start a game as well he was often very poor. remember he started a league cup game against leeds and was awful, taken off after 60m. it was game like that he was meant to shine in, maybe if he stayed another year he could have been a lot better but it was POGBA who chose to leave, nothing fergie or united could have done as his contact was up

MagicIRL

Just got Croatia in the sweepstakes in work.

Leftist

pogba will end up doing an anelka. Not arsed about him tbh.

Ed The Equalizer

bangkok wrote: »

if your a toni kroos or a pogba etc you prob grew up in awe of Manchester united and pogba was at united before so might jump at the chance to go back. We have one of the best stadiums in the world, sold out every week in the biggest league in the world that also pays the highest wages, why would you not want to join. I think that toni kroos brother said the whole family supported united. We are one of the biggest sporting teams in the world and next season is the beginning of a new "project".

You sound like you're young and you've only supported United in the Premiership years.

Back in the 80s we were way behind Liverpool and a similar draw to Arsenal and Spurs. If foreigners had been coming to England we would have been way behind Barca, Real, Milan, Juve and maybe even more teams.

Once we started winning under Fergie we became the biggest draw in England and hoovered up some great domestic based players, but very few great foreigners.

And now we've been overtaken by the moneybags - Chelsea, City, PSG, and perhaps Monaco - and are still behind the likes of Real, Barca and Bayern.

While the debt is still being repaid this is not going to change, and perhaps is a consequence of being a PLC in the first place and leaving the club open to a leveraged buyout.

If we can hang in there until the debt is repaid, suddenly things look good, or if the Glazers sell to someone super rich. But until then there's absolutely no point getting our hopes up that we're going to sign the best players in the world.

It's never happened before and it's not going to any time soon.

Maximus Alexander

MagicIRL wrote: »

Just got Croatia in the sweepstakes in work.

You think that's bad? I got England. :pac:

aperture_nuig

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

You think that's bad? I got England. :pac:

I got Columbia & Cameroon :pac:

MagicIRL

We're paying out for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and worst overall. No money for me! :pac:

bucketybuck

bangkok wrote: »

and this crack of fergie let pogba go, it was ferguson who wanted him to sign the 30k contract on offer but he wanted a lot more money and Juve were giving him a 2m signing on fee. any time pogba did start a game as well he was often very poor. remember he started a league cup game against leeds and was awful, taken off after 60m. it was game like that he was meant to shine in,

Strange how history gets changed. Pogba didn't start that Leeds game, he came on at half-time.

"Any time Pogba started he was poor". And how many times did he start a game exactly? Most of his 7 appearances were as a late substitute, did he even start a game?

Fergie cannot duck responsibility for this one, all he had to do was give the lad his chance, give him a few games and we could have saved ourselves a lot of pain. Instead he decided to play games and we lost perhaps the best prospect in world football. Ironic then that Fergie was previously quoted as saying:

Ahead of the start of the 2011–12 season, Ferguson confirmed that Pogba would feature with the senior team during the season, stating: "I mean if we hold Pogba back, what's going to happen? He's going to leave. You know, in a couple of years' time when his contract is going to finish. So we have to give him the opportunity to see how he can do in the first-team and he's got great ability"

People think we mention Pogba too much. Personally I think he should have his face on the wall at Carrington, simply to remind us and ensure we don't make such a **** up ever again.

Adamcp898

I got Greece

IvySlayer

I got Chile

keane2097

keane2097 wrote: »

Bled in Ronaldo. Grand. Presumably it would have been possible to **** that one up but might have taken a fair bit.

Rooney was stifled by Ferguson for a lot of his career. Another example of a player being routinely played out of position, has had most of his success despite Ferguson rather than because of him.

Smalling and Jones are on the cusp of being ruined mainly due to being played out of position IMO.

Rafael hasn't improved notably in five years, still makes the same mistakes he did as a youngster albeit he's a decent player.

De Gea laughably mismanaged by Ferguson early on, him being dropped for Lindegaard was a joke.

Not convinced really.

This, by the way, is only making a start on the few players you could make a vague argument about being successes of Ferguson's latter day youth "development", without even beginning to look at the many disasters.

Liam O

Letting Rossi go was as bad as Pogba at the time, had an OK centre midfield for the job at that time and after stupidly letting Forlan and imo stupidly letting RvN go he would have flourished at the club in that period I think given the chance. All those players went for a pittance compared to what they were worth and would have been successes given consistent runs in the team.

Adamcp898

Adamcp898 wrote: »

I got Greece

Try Croatia and Greece.....sigh

Trigger

I got England in work and on here! :pac:

keane2097

bangkok wrote: »

what a pile of crap, he developed loads of players and turned Ronaldo into one of the best players to ever play the game.

and this crack of fergie let pogba go, it was ferguson who wanted him to sign the 30k contract on offer but he wanted a lot more money and Juve were giving him a 2m signing on fee. any time pogba did start a game as well he was often very poor. remember he started a league cup game against leeds and was awful, taken off after 60m. it was game like that he was meant to shine in, maybe if he stayed another year he could have been a lot better but it was POGBA who chose to leave, nothing fergie or united could have done as his contact was up

Winston Payne

Liam O wrote: »

Letting Rossi go was as bad as Pogba at the time, had an OK centre midfield for the job at that time and after stupidly letting Forlan and imo stupidly letting RvN go he would have flourished at the club in that period I think given the chance. All those players went for a pittance compared to what they were worth and would have been successes given consistent runs in the team.

van Nistelrooy had peaked. The knee injury he got in 04/05 slowed him and the team was moving on from that style of play anyway. Saha was better at the time than Rossi and then Tevez came the season after. We became the best team in Europe. It's impossible to successfully develop each and every one of your players, there are going to be failures through mistakes of coaching or players not getting the time because of the alternatives. Rossi wasn't going to improve the team by going into it in 05/06. Or the season after. Or the season after. So you're looking at 08/09 as the earliest stage that he could have been a first-teamer, or competing for a place if we hadn't bought Berbatov. Of course, this is all presuming that he'd be happy to go out on loan for that length of time and developed well, or as well as he did, then came back and wanted a first-team place with us. Rossi wasn't a mistake. Neither was Pique, while we're here, for much the same reasons.

Crimson King

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

You think that's bad? I got England. :pac:

Sitting here feeling smug because I drew Iran

bangkok

fergie was one of the best managers in the game at developing young players... just look at the amount of players he brought through from youth team to first team in his career. its easy to say "oh look we let a rossi or a pogba go" but that's the way football works you cant get it right all the time. rossi was never suited to prem league anyway. sure arsenal had yaya toure on trial and didn't take him and wanted to take ibrahimovic on trial but he didn't want a trial!!

Robson99

bangkok wrote: »

what a pile of crap, he developed loads of players and turned Ronaldo into one of the best players to ever play the game.

and this crack of fergie let pogba go, it was ferguson who wanted him to sign the 30k contract on offer but he wanted a lot more money and Juve were giving him a 2m signing on fee. any time pogba did start a game as well he was often very poor. remember he started a league cup game against leeds and was awful, taken off after 60m. it was game like that he was meant to shine in, maybe if he stayed another year he could have been a lot better but it was POGBA who chose to leave, nothing fergie or united could have done as his contact was up

No this is a pile of crap. Get your facts right before you knock others

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

Ferguson was crap at managing young players in a lot of the second half of his career. He sent loads of very talented players out on lolbad loans where they didn't get a kick, and his version of "development" for those that stayed at United was to never play them even when it meant playing senior player bizarrely out of position instead, or if he did play them make it in a position they're not comfortable in as often as possible.

Rafael playing CM, Scholes coming out of retirement etc., if I was a kid as talented as Pogba conversations with my agent would have been along the lines of "this old **** hasn't a clue, get me out of here and I'll be top 5 in Europe this time next year".

totally agree with this....i think we lived off the class of 92 for years and our focus on youth, while good was a bit of a myth as time went on.

bangkok

homerjay2005 wrote: »

totally agree with this....i think we lived off the class of 92 for years and our focus on youth, while good was a bit of a myth as time went on.

but it was fergie who gave all those players the chance. how many young players has for example Mourinho given a chance to?? fergie put his kneck on the line with all those players and they repaid him.

after the class of 92 he gave loads of players the opportunity for a first team place...

Wes brown
john o shea
Darren fletcher
danny welbeck
Rafael
Fabio
johnny evans
tom cleverly
rossi
macheda

probably way more but off the top of my head that's what I can think of

Cantona's Collars

Chill out with this quiz,I got 7/10 - I got the 3 'easiest' ones wrong.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-united-quiz-80s-7245783

Mitch Connor

homerjay2005 wrote: »

totally agree with this....i think we lived off the class of 92 for years and our focus on youth, while good was a bit of a myth as time went on.

we are still producing 'good' players at a rate to rival any club. I think United has the most graduates playing professionally out of all clubs (or we are second/third) - but we have been poorly at 'creating' top class at our academy or developing young signings for years upon years.

Look at Anderson at Porto, or Gremio (?) - and look at what we turned him in to, a combative (hah) box to box midfielder who looks brilliant for a couple of games then rubbish. The progress of Smalling and Jones has been poor, extremely poor and I think we have dropped the ball with both of them (as opposed to them not having the talent). Welbeck is another who has developed poorly, and I would say Cleverley is too. Welbeck had/has similar potential to Sturridge, and Cleveley to Henderson, imo - both the Liverpool players are miles ahead now, and I put that down to a lack of coaching and development at United.

Honestly, I reckon LVG could be BRILLIANT for Welbeck and Janzaj - while Jones, Smalling and Cleverley could also benefit. None are bad players, all can be a lot better than they have been for United, imo.

NoviGlitzko

zerks wrote: »

Chill out with this quiz,I got 7/10 - I got the 3 'easiest' ones wrong.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-united-quiz-80s-7245783

2/10. Luck wasn't on my side with the guesses. Don't know anything about United in the 80's.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

we are still producing 'good' players at a rate to rival any club. I think United has the most graduates playing professionally out of all clubs (or we are second/third) - but we have been poorly at 'creating' top class at our academy or developing young signings for years upon years.

Look at Anderson at Porto, or Gremio (?) - and look at what we turned him in to, a combative (hah) box to box midfielder who looks brilliant for a couple of games then rubbish. The progress of Smalling and Jones has been poor, extremely poor and I think we have dropped the ball with both of them (as opposed to them not having the talent). Welbeck is another who has developed poorly, and I would say Cleverley is too. Welbeck had/has similar potential to Sturridge, and Cleveley to Henderson, imo - both the Liverpool players are miles ahead now, and I put that down to a lack of coaching and development at United.

Honestly, I reckon LVG could be BRILLIANT for Welbeck and Janzaj - while Jones, Smalling and Cleverley could also benefit. None are bad players, all can be a lot better than they have been for United, imo.

how has welbeck "developed poorly" exactly?? 23 years of age, 23 England caps and about to play in his 2nd international football tournament and looks to be getting better every year.......

Backstreet Moyes

The problem is Jones and Smalling should have been ready to replace Ferdinand and Vidic. Instead they have spent the last few seasons playing every second or third game and when played mostly out of position. Both were handled very poorly by Fergie. Both players are not much more developed then when they signed years ago.

Maximus Alexander

I was a maximum age of 4 years and 2 months old in the 80s, which does not bode well for my score on that quiz.

homerjay2005

bangkok wrote: »

but it was fergie who gave all those players the chance. how many young players has for example Mourinho given a chance to?? fergie put his kneck on the line with all those players and they repaid him.

after the class of 92 he gave loads of players the opportunity for a first team place...

Wes brown
john o shea
Darren fletcher
danny welbeck
Rafael
Fabio
johnny evans
tom cleverly
rossi
macheda

probably way more but off the top of my head that's what I can think of

thats not a spectacular list from the last 23 years, especially considering macheda, rossi and fabio started f*ck all games between them.

the amount of critism the other players have gotten in the early years of their careers is quite high also, especially Cleverly and Fletcher.

homerjay2005

zerks wrote: »

Chill out with this quiz,I got 7/10 - I got the 3 'easiest' ones wrong.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-united-quiz-80s-7245783

i got the last one wrong

Backstreet Moyes

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Welbeck is another who has developed poorly, and I would say Cleverley is too. Welbeck had/has similar potential to Sturridge, and Cleveley to Henderson, imo - both the Liverpool players are miles ahead now, and I put that down to a lack of coaching and development at United.

That has nothing to do with coaching it has to do with getting first team football. If Sturridge was at United he would be the same under developed because of being behind Rooney and RVP. Wellbeck should leave the club to better himself because he won't fulfill his potential at United.

On Cleverley i don't think he ever had the potential of Henderson. I actually never got the hype. When with Wigan he was outshined by McCarthy. With United bar 5 or 6 games beside Anderson a few years ago he has never looked like anything like a United player.

Liam O

Winston Payne wrote: »

van Nistelrooy had peaked. The knee injury he got in 04/05 slowed him and the team was moving on from that style of play anyway. Saha was better at the time than Rossi and then Tevez came the season after. We became the best team in Europe. It's impossible to successfully develop each and every one of your players, there are going to be failures through mistakes of coaching or players not getting the time because of the alternatives. Rossi wasn't going to improve the team by going into it in 05/06. Or the season after. Or the season after. So you're looking at 08/09 as the earliest stage that he could have been a first-teamer, or competing for a place if we hadn't bought Berbatov. Of course, this is all presuming that he'd be happy to go out on loan for that length of time and developed well, or as well as he did, then came back and wanted a first-team place with us. Rossi wasn't a mistake. Neither was Pique, while we're here, for much the same reasons.

The team greatly lacked a finisher in a lot of games around that time. The fact that Berbatov was bought when Rossi or Forlan would have been much better suited to the system is enough to show that selling them was a mistake imo.

bangkok

homerjay2005 wrote: »

thats not a spectacular list from the last 23 years, especially considering macheda, rossi and fabio started f*ck all games between them.

the amount of critism the other players have gotten in the early years of their careers is quite high also, especially Cleverly and Fletcher.

sorry you can add to the januzaj if you like as fergie would have played him if he was there, nearly 1 player a season is being developed, that is excellent in fairness, then you have players that never made the grade at united and went on to build good careers at other clubs....shawcross, bardsley, bruce, Richardson, mcshane

Crimson King

Just looking there, Pogba only signed a 4 year contract when signing for Juve. It's probably the reason they are willing to at least entertain bids as his salary is only £10K a week so surely he has been offered higher wages on a longer term contract. That would have happened after season one I am sure and the fact he is still on the original contract surely means he refused to sign (all conjecture of course). so Juve have three choices:

1. Pay him the salary on a par that his supposed £60M value entails
2. Let him wind down his contract whilst getting value by his contributions on the pitch whilst seeing his market value dwindle or
3. Sell him now and maximize their profit

Also giving his agents form, Juve probably got wind of the agent talking to other clubs. Fergie did claim this happened at United so maybe for once he was telling the truth about the player and not just spinning to make United look better.

Just realised I have too much time on my hands today

bangkok

Liam O wrote: »

The team greatly lacked a finisher in a lot of games around that time. The fact that Berbatov was bought when Rossi or Forlan would have been much better suited to the system is enough to show that selling them was a mistake imo.

how was rossi suited to the system? he went on loan to Newcastle and couldn't even score a goal in about 10-15 games with them so was clearly not suited to the rough and tumble of the prem league. he wasn't just going to walk onto the united team in fairness

Robson99

bangkok wrote: »

sorry you can add to the januzaj if you like as fergie would have played him if he was there, nearly 1 player a season is being developed, that is excellent in fairness, then you have players that never made the grade at united and went on to build good careers at other clubs....shawcross, bardsley, bruce, Richardson, mcshane

Pique?? a F**K up or never made the grade???