Manchester United Superthread 2014 mod warning #8081

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

You are being purposefully obtuse.

Hence the last 2 pages have occurred.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

You sound like somebody who hasn't but the slightest bit of thought into how youth development works in football.

A year of development is massive for an 18 year old. Adding 21 year-olds like Alaba and Pogba into the discussion is just wilful ignorance.

Let's redefine the word "young" in such a way as to exclude anyone older than Januzaj in order that we can claim he is the best "young" player in Europe.

There are myriad players who are manifestly young and plainly vastly superior to him all over Europe.

Have your discussion about the best debut season by a youngster in Europe if you like, the rest is just auld rubbish.

tallaghtmick

bullvine wrote: »

I wouldn't swap Januzaj for any other 19 year old on the planet, he has technique, vision and balance better than anyone his age.

What about a 19 year old Kate Upton?

Check mate

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

You are being purposefully obtuse.

And you are purposefully obscuring the meaning of a well known word in order to make an argument that a player you like has claim to a title he obviously has no claim to.

Timmyctc

Timmyctc wrote: »

:pac:
lads the season is over. We can stop hating one another

Not me throwing a strop. I just don't like being told that I don't belong in the discussion.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

You sound like somebody who hasn't but the slightest bit of thought into how youth development works in football.

A year of development is massive for an 18 year old. Adding 21 year-olds like Alaba and Pogba into the discussion is just wilful ignorance.

couldn't agree more..... a year is huge in development when a player is 18. Ronaldo came back to united after I think his first summer break and was an absolute beast. I remember fergie saying at the time when Ronaldo walked in after training that he couldn't believe how much the lad had bulked up

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

Let's redefine the word "young" in such a way as to exclude anyone older than Januzaj in order that we can claim he is the best "young" player in Europe.

There are myriad players who are manifestly young and plainly vastly superior to him all over Europe.

Have your discussion about the best debut season by a youngster in Europe if you like, the rest is just auld rubbish.

No. Let's consider youth prospects in their own age bracket and not compare them to lads two years older. It's a simple concept. You are capable of understanding it, but you don't want to.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

No. Let's consider youth prospects in their own age bracket and not compare them to lads two years older. It's a simple concept. You are capable of understanding it, but you don't want to.

You're redefining the question then from whether he's the best young player to if he's the best 18/19 year old adding in the proviso that we're only talking about players who have played a certain number of games.

Are you willing to admit that you are adding in stipulations that aren't typically packaged together with the word "young"?

bucketybuck

RobertKK wrote: »

Agree.

Januzaj is 19.

Ah. So Shaw is younger, and therefore a far better prospect than Januzaj.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

And you are purposefully obscuring the meaning of a well known word in order to make an argument that a player you like has claim to a title he obviously has no claim to.

I've already agreed that he doesn't have a claim to the title when I realised that I'd been mistaken with the dates of birth and that Stirling is actually in the same age bracket as him.

As I said, "best young player" was a term that needed clarification. Since comparing 18 year-olds directly to 21 year-olds tells us nothing useful about the 18 year-olds, and since a year of development is massive in youth development, it is reasonable to limit the discussion to the relevant age bracket.

bangkok

lads..... lets agree on best TEENAGER in Europe!!!!!!!!!!

Pudsy33

Januzaj is going to the world cup. Named in Belgiums squad.

*probably been mentioned but howandever*

Utopia Parkway

keane2097 wrote: »

It's pretty simple.

In a world that contains people like Daniel Alaba, Paul Pogba, Raheem Sterling, Luke Shaw etc etc etc Januzaj is certainly not the young best player in Europe, unless you insist on defining the terms to mean "he's the best 18 year old who has only played one season" - in which case, why not just call the discussion what you really mean i.e. "Adnan is the best if you exclude everyone who's better".

Don't forget Mateo Kovacic at Inter. Turned 20 only last week. Huge talent.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

You're redefining the question then from whether he's the best young player to if he's the best 18/19 year old adding in the proviso that we're only talking about players who have played a certain number of games.

I didn't add the proviso of number of games played.

keane2097 wrote: »

Are you willing to admit that you are adding in stipulations that aren't typically packaged together with the word "young"?

"Young" is a relative term. Any detailed comparison of "young" prospects will need well defined parameters. We could go down the route of comparing 21 year-olds directly to 19 year-olds but that would be dumb.

keane2097

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Don't forget Mateo Kovacic at Inter. Turned 20 only last week. Huge talent.

I'm sure there are loads.

Look, Januzaj is very talented and has great potential but this thing of trying to massage categories to put him on top of just for the sake of hyping him up is just sad.

It's also the sort of thing that a lot of people in here were complaining about the English media doing with players. I guess it's more fun when it's your own guy getting the smoke blown up him.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't add the proviso of number of games played.

"Young" is a relative term. Any detailed comparison of "young" prospects will need well defined parameters. We could go down the route of comparing 21 year-olds directly to 19 year-olds but that would be dumb.

I wish I hadn't already used that gif now.

NTMK

januzaj is the best kosovar-albanian teenager born in belgium on the 5th february 1995:P

Blatter

When comparing Sterling and Januzaj you have to consider that Sterling has been playing in a far more fluid, settled team which has an emphasis on allowing attackers to flourish. He was also afforded a more consistent run of games.

Januzaj has stood out plenty of times in a very dysfunctional team under a manager that never really had the dressing room.

It's pretty close between the two.

keane2097

NTMK wrote: »

januzaj is the best kosovar-albanian teenager born in belgium on the 5th february 1995:P

Essentially, yes.

KH25

Don't want to get caught up in all of this but I think its fair to say that Januzaj is being overhyped because of who he plays for, and what league he is in. He is a great talent and could become an exceptional player, but he's not there yet.

Lord TSC

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why would the CEO ever do a thing like that?

Listen, I'm calling BS on the story as a whole. The post was just one designed to look at how it might have played out if it was true.

glued

KH25 wrote: »

Don't want to get caught up in all of this but I think its fair to say that Januzaj is being overhyped because of who he plays for, and what league he is in. He is a great talent and could become an exceptional player, but he's not there yet.

So he isn't the best player in the world? :eek:

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

I wish I hadn't already used that gif now.

I wish you would give up on your bullshít idea that there is any point in lumping 19yos and 21yos all into the same category when discussing the relative talents of young players.

homerjay2005

Pro. F wrote: »

According to your numbers, replacing the 5 oldest earners with 5 average earners in the 15-25yo bracket would save the club £10m per year, not £20m.

That's all based on the assumption that you have reliable numbers for wages, but I still haven't seen any sources for individual player wages that should be treated as reliable.

unproven youngters like Keane, Wilson, Varela, Janko would be on wages of no more than 10k maximum in their first contracts.

powell & amos are on 15k between them, which is then balanced by Adnan on 40k. average earners would be the likes of Welbeck, cleverly and Jones who would be in the 2nd, if not 3rd contract at the club and already established first team players. buttner is on 15k by comparison. the 54k average i mentioned is distored by the likes of Mata, kagawa who are players that cost £50million.

the average for these young players would be maximum £5million per year combined (reality is alot less) this savings of about £19m-20m

kryogen

bangkok wrote: »

and they were going to pay united 15m.....talk of them coming back in the summer with a bigger offer now in the region of 35-40m.

Show me

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

I wish you would give up on your bullshít idea that there is any point in lumping 19yos and 21yos all into the same category when discussing the relative talents of young players.

Your idea of only comparing Januzaj to other players whose development he has either matched or surpassed is inane. It's a tautology.

Januzaj is the best player in Europe out of all those players who have not developed more than him. I concede.

bangkok

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jan/26/manchester-united-reject-paris-saint-germain-bid-adnan-januzaj

why do people always need "the proof"!!

Pro. F

Blatter wrote: »

When comparing Sterling and Januzaj you have to consider that Sterling has been playing in a far more fluid, settled team which has an emphasis on allowing attackers to flourish. He was also afforded a more consistent run of games.

Januzaj has stood out plenty of times in a very dysfunctional team under a manager that never really had the dressing room.

It's pretty close between the two.

I think it's fair to say that both Shaw and Stirling are further along in their development than Januzaj at this moment. They're all extremely talented prospects. Whether the other two are further along than Januzaj because they've had more and better opportunities at senior football or because they are just better than him, imo we can't say definitively yet.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

Your idea of only comparing Januzaj to other players whose development he has either matched or surpassed is inane. It's a tautology.

Januzaj is the best player in Europe out of all those players who have not developed more than him. I concede.

You are confusing me with one of the other posters.

bangkok

januzaj is a cracking player so is sterling and so is shaw....all have loads of potential. in 10 years time we might look back and say what ever happened to that sterling lad or ever since januzaj got that injury after he went to psg he just never progressed to what we would have expected.


Lucas moura 21year old at psg, we bid 30m for him, nearly had him and he went to psg. Now he cant make the psg team and was dropped from the brazil squad and only last year he was being talked up as the next big player at the world cup 2014!!

Lord TSC

bangkok wrote: »

why do people always need "the proof"!!

Because it's so easy to create fake stories in this day and age and have them translated into fact before anyone has proof. it takes 10 seconds to link an article.

TheDoc

Plant the idea that player widely regarded as best in his age in Europe, is not actually the best

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

You are confusing me with one of the other posters.

As far as I can see, you have been arguing against comparing one young player to others who are also young because some are far more developed than others.

I've been objecting to the idea of Januzaj as the "best young player" since the beginning precisely because there are tonnes of players who are young in anyone's vocabulary who are more developed by a mile.

Blatter

Pro. F wrote: »

I think it's fair to say that both Shaw and Stirling are further along in their development than Januzaj at this moment. They're all extremely talented prospects. Whether the other two are further along than Januzaj because they've had more and better opportunities at senior football or because they are just better than him, imo we can't say definitively yet.

I wouldn't disagree that they're further ahead, I just don't think there's much in it at all.

kryogen

bullvine wrote: »

I wouldn't swap Januzaj for any other 19 year old on the planet, he has technique, vision and balance better than anyone his age.

I might swap him for his countryman Dennis Praet the more I think of it, and Bakkali too is very good and younger then Adnan

Deulofeu is pretty good too in fairness, Timo Werner? again he is younger. There is a lot of promising young talent out there, Ocampos, Benzia, Piazon etc

bangkok

kryogen wrote: »

I might swap him for his countryman Dennis Praet the more I think of it, and Bakkali too is very good and younger then Adnan

Deulofeu is pretty good too in fairness, Timo Werner? again he is younger. There is a lot of promising young talent out there, Ocampos, Benzia, Piazon etc

yes but are any of them doing it at one of the top clubs in the world?

kryogen

bangkok wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jan/26/manchester-united-reject-paris-saint-germain-bid-adnan-januzaj

why do people always need "the proof"!!

So your proof of

bangkok wrote:

they were going to pay united 15m.....talk of them coming back in the summer with a bigger offer now in the region of 35-40m.

is a newspaper report where a journalist floats the rumour that United rejected a bid, no mention of a fee, no mention of coming back.

Your missing some stuff

keane2097

bangkok wrote: »

yes but are any of them doing it at one of the top clubs in the world?

We're now adding in "achievements outside of five or six elite clubs will not be considered".

Just call it the Januzaj Award and get it over with.

Deulofeu was doing it at a club that finished eight points above United this year FWIW.

Timmyctc

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Not me throwing a strop. I just don't like being told that I don't belong in the discussion.

I'm just trying to diffuse some of the tension in here through lighthearted pix

x

And Interpretative dance.

kryogen

bangkok wrote: »

yes but are any of them doing it at one of the top clubs in the world?

Define one of the top clubs in the world

Mikeyt086

kryogen wrote: »

Define one of the top clubs in the world

And also define "World Class", list you're 3 favourite formations and why, then name you're unsung hero of the Denmark team that won the European Cup in 1992.

Boards.ie Soccer Forum.

kryogen

That is the entire criteria?

Tough one so

Son Of A Vidic

Sky reporting that Van Gaal had an interview with the Dutch media earlier. In it, he said he was no closer to taking the United job than he was last week. They also reported he hinted he had other options. Getting sick of this crap, if they want the guy they need to pull their finger out and sort this out.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

As far as I can see, you have been arguing against comparing one young player to others who are also young because some are far more developed than others.

I initially made the mistake of thinking that Stirling was one age bracket above Januzaj because I got confused with the dates of birth. Since I realised that I have corrected it and agreed that Stirling is ahead of Januzaj in that age bracket.

I've been arguing against directly comparing young players from different age groups.

keane2097 wrote: »

I've been objecting to the idea of Januzaj as the "best young player" since the beginning precisely because there are tonnes of players who are young in anyone's vocabulary who are more developed by a mile.

Who is the best under 22 player is not a discussion that tells you much that is useful about the best 19 year-olds.

Deiseboy01

redbaron_99 wrote: »

I didnt say football now is no better than the 50s. willful blindness on your part. you're not even reading the debate that you're commenting on.

I posted that i believe football today is better than in the 50's or 60's. You came back with a dickish post to say, just because you believe it doesn't make it so. So what did you mean by that then? Seems obvious to me you were disagreeing with my statement.

kryogen

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

And also define "World Class", list you're 3 favourite formations and why, then name you're unsung hero of the Denmark team that won the European Cup in 1992.

Boards.ie Soccer Forum.

Do you count Monaco as one of the biggest clubs in the world? PSG?

Real Madrid? River Plate?

Honestly, for me to answer his question I need to see what his definition of a top club is. No point in wasting my time otherwise

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

I initially made the mistake of thinking that Stirling was one age bracket above Januzaj because I got confused with the dates of birth. Since I realised that I have corrected it and agreed that Stirling is ahead of Januzaj in that age bracket.

I've been arguing against directly comparing young players from different age groups.

Ok

Pro. F wrote: »

Who is the best under 22 player is not a discussion that tells you much that is useful about the best 19 year-olds.

I never claimed it would tell anyone anything useful about anything. It might lead to an understanding on who the best young player is though.

As I said a few times, if you want to create a separate category which contains Januzaj and excludes other young players based on whatever criteria, that's fine by me.

You can't call it "young players" though, I forbid it.

keane2097

Where did we ever land on that thing I had before where I reckoned "Pato" was the best nickname in world soccer by a mile?

homerjay2005

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Sky reporting that Van Gaal had an interview with the Dutch media earlier. In it, he said he was no closer to taking the United job than he was last week. They also reported he hinted he had other options. Getting sick of this crap, if they want the guy they need to pull their finger out and sort this out.

this is what happens when you have a clueless CE at the helm...you'd think he'd have learned from last season.

people kept saying "Moyes came in too late"...but the reality Van Gaal will be even later as he will need a holiday after world cup and its possible he wont arrive until well August.

the only possible explanation for this, is that Van Gaal is not number one target and we are hoping that somebody else will take it thus we wont have the world cup to worry about.

it makes absolutely zero sense to have no announcement made by now if Van Gaal is really the man.

Deiseboy01

kryogen wrote: »

One of the players had a moan about it publicly, that he will be taking someones place who actually got the team to the WC. Must have a look later and see if that happened

That was Miralles I think. He was right too although you can understand the thinking.