Manchester United Superthread 2014 mod warning #8081

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

I never claimed it would tell anyone anything useful about anything. It might lead to an understanding on who the best young player is though.

As I said a few times, if you want to create a separate category which contains Januzaj and excludes other young players based on whatever criteria, that's fine by me.

You can't call it "young players" though, I forbid it.

Gareth Bale is the best young player.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

Gareth Bale is the best young player.

cdb

In his piece on Van Gaal's philosophy in the Guardian today Jamie Jackson (one of the more reputable and reliable journalists) says that in addition to promoting young players into the first team, Van Gaal has a tendency to shift players around and play in different positions. David Alaba for example moved to a left back role for Bayern and Schweinsteiger from left sided winger to a central holding role, both with fairly decent results.

"There are not many players who have a wide orientation. When you have a wide orientation then you can fit in the profile of a No6 or No10. But then you have to train. Schweinsteiger never played there, so after two weeks of training sessions and two matches, he felt he could do more than ever. That's why the philosophy is the binding factor."

Assuming he gets the job and this philosophy continues, who of the current squad could we reasonably expect to fill unfamiliar positions in a new system? In the past we've seen Carrick as an unconvincing if makeshift central defender and Valencia doubling up at right-back. Fergie played Rooney in almost every position in midfield, left right and centre and all with arguably less-than-optimal levels of success.

For me the notable difference with Van Gaal's approach and the reason why it may achieve surprising results is that a player will have a clearly defined role in addition to training specifically tailored for that role. I might be wide of the mark but it seems like this approach is totally at odds with the seemingly knee-jerk emergency type approach that has gone before. Not to say the players mentioned didn't have specific training but that it was a short-term rather than a long-term role.

So with the start of the player exodus and given that we may not fill every vacancy in this transfer window, are there any Alaba or Schweinsteiger style changes in store next season?

Guardian Article

keane2097

I've literally been calling him "Daniel Alaba" for two years.

KH25

cdb wrote: »

In his piece on Van Gaal's philosophy in the Guardian today Jamie Jackson (one of the more reputable and reliable journalists) says that in addition to promoting young players into the first team, Van Gaal has a tendency to shift players around and play in different positions. David Alaba for example moved to a left back role for Bayern and Schweinsteiger from left sided winger to a central holding role, both with fairly decent results.



Assuming he gets the job and this philosophy continues, who of the current squad could we reasonably expect to fill unfamiliar positions in a new system? In the past we've seen Carrick as an unconvincing if makeshift central defender and Valencia doubling up at right-back. Fergie played Rooney in almost every position in midfield, left right and centre and all with arguably less-than-optimal levels of success.

For me the notable difference with Van Gaal's approach and the reason why it may achieve surprising results is that a player will have a clearly defined role in addition to training specifically tailored for that role. I might be wide of the mark but it seems like this approach is totally at odds with the seemingly knee-jerk emergency type approach that has gone before. Not to say the players mentioned didn't have specific training but that it was a short-term rather than a long-term role.

So with the start of the player exodus and given that we may not fill every vacancy in this transfer window, are there any Alaba or Schweinsteiger style changes in store next season?

Guardian Article

None come to mind very quickly I must say. Buttner could possibly be pushed up to the wing. Im sure Welbeck could be re-deployed considering his pace and work rate. Other than that, Im not so sure.

cdb

keane2097 wrote: »

I've literally been calling him "Daniel Alaba" for two years.

Google doesn't seem to mind

Son Of A Vidic

homerjay2005 wrote: »

it makes absolutely zero sense to have no announcement made by now if Van Gaal is really the man.

I agree. Now I did think there was a possibility they were just waiting for the season to end. But that's clearly not the case now. I really hope they're not waiting until after the Champions League final. Van Gaal won't be too impressed if they come to him with their tails between their legs, if Ancelotti rejects them. And the way things have gone this season, it wouldn't surprise me if they ballsed all this up.

Headshot

Id be fair pissed if this delay is caused by the utd board want ****ing Giggs to be involved and LVG is against it

Let LVG do want he wants ffs

Reedsie

homerjay2005 wrote: »

this is what happens when you have a clueless CE at the helm...you'd think he'd have learned from last season.

people kept saying "Moyes came in too late"...but the reality Van Gaal will be even later as he will need a holiday after world cup and its possible he wont arrive until well August.

the only possible explanation for this, is that Van Gaal is not number one target and we are hoping that somebody else will take it thus we wont have the world cup to worry about.

Really?

KH25

Would have expected the manager to be announced this week. If that doesn't happen, I'll worry.

Whatsisname

Really getting sick of all this now. Don't even expect him to come at this stage.

redbaron_99

3 possible explanations for the delay:

1, they have someone else in mind an are waiting until the European season is over to approach him.

2, there's a disagreement about the role of Giggs.

3, van gaal is already doin the job of united manager behind the scenes. Getting rid of rio and some of the older players before he is officially announced might be a good idea. He essentially starts off with clean hands from the fans' perspective

Would be very annoyed and worried if either 1 or 2 turn out to be true.
3 would be quite shrewd actually

keane2097

redbaron_99 wrote: »

3 possible explanations for the delay:

1, they have someone else in mind an are waiting until the European season is over to approach him.

2, there's a disagreement about the role of Giggs.

3, van gaal is already doin the job of united manager behind the scenes. Getting rid of rio and some of the older players before he is officially announced might be a good idea. He essentially starts off with clean hands from the fans' perspective

Would be very annoyed and worried if either 1 or 2 turn out to be true.
3 would be quite shrewd actually

I can't imagine it wouldn't be three considering the decision to get rid of some of the coaching staff and not retain Ferdinand.

Would be very strange for the board to be so insistent on retaining Giggs, why would they care?

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

Would be very strange for the board to be so insistent on retaining Giggs, why would they care?

its perfectly clear why they would want him to stay, am surprised you even have to ask this....

redbaron_99

keane2097 wrote: »

I can't imagine it wouldn't be three considering the decision to get rid of some of the coaching staff and not retain Ferdinand.

Would be very strange for the board to be so insistent on retaining Giggs, why would they care?

Personally I think it's the third option. And it's a smart enough way to go out about it.

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its perfectly clear why they would want him to stay, am surprised you even have to ask this....

I genuinely don't know!

kryogen

It seems pretty clear there is already a manager in place, now the reason for delaying the announcement and confirmation of this can be debated, but it doesnt matter really. Bids wouldnt be going in for players without some approval from the manager, that is just not how United do things, imagine investing almost 30 million in a full back and then the manager comes in and says, well to be honest I dont want him, Im gonna have TC23 play there, so send your man on loan or whatever but he aint for me. That would not happen at United

Deciding to part company with Ferdinand, a manager would surely be signing off on these decisions, and the back room ones. Why let Neville and Woods go now, Woods at the very least seems to have done a pretty good job, what if the new manager wanted him kept on? There has got to have been communication and these decisions are being made by proxy imo

The manager is in place, whats holding up the confirmation doesnt matter

Rubber_Soul

Sorry only getting back to this now. Have an exam tomorrow so attempting to study here.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Depends how it went down I suppose.

I could well imagine, for example, that Woodward went to the dressing room to thank the players at the end of the season. While there, Rio pulled him aside and asked what was happening, were negotiations going to reopen, and rather than string Rio along, he told Rio that there wasn't going to be a new contract offered. The conversation took place in a public room with others around him, and some would have heard, but it was an overheard conversation.

In your scenario why can't he just arrange a meeting with Rio at a more appropriate time to discuss the issue? The dressing room really isn't the time and place for it.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

However, a lot of people seem to want to run with the narrative that Woodward calling a meeting, initiated the conversation and in front of everyone told Rio he was gone, as if Rio was totally unaware his contract was expiring; that Woodward chose to publicly humiliate Rio.

Both versions could come from the same line the journalists are taking, but a lot of people want to jump on the more unbelievable version because its a juicer story.

I'm certainly not one of those people. I've already said that I don't necessarily believe it but the journo's in question are decent which lends credibility to the story (I was mistaken on the Ogden confirmation, he just said it was Van Gaal's decision not to renew). I also don't believe Woodward called a meeting and shouted it out over the dressing room. In fact, I'd say the scenario you mentioned is far more likely. It doesn't change my opinion that the dressing room isn't the time and place for it.

kryogen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its perfectly clear why they would want him to stay, am surprised you even have to ask this....

Why do you think its a deal breaking decision for the owners?

We have had papers run with both sides of this story, that Van Gaal will keep him, that Van Gaal will let him go, depending on who you read and what day it is.

But why do you think it would bother the Glazers so much? I genuinely think they were born with all sentiment removed from them at birth and they have no emotional attachment to Giggs or United anyway tbh if thats the angle you would like to take

lordgoat

kryogen wrote: »

It seems pretty clear there is already a manager in place, now the reason for delaying the announcement and confirmation of this can be debated, but it doesnt matter really. Bids wouldnt be going in for players without some approval from the manager, that is just not how United do things, imagine investing almost 30 million in a full back and then the manager comes in and says, well to be honest I dont want him, Im gonna have TC23 play there, so send your man on loan or whatever but he aint for me. That would not happen at United

Deciding to part company with Ferdinand, a manager would surely be signing off on these decisions, and the back room ones. Why let Neville and Woods go now, Woods at the very least seems to have done a pretty good job, what if the new manager wanted him kept on? There has got to have been communication and these decisions are being made by proxy imo

The manager is in place, whats holding up the confirmation doesnt matter

The more you think about it the more it seems that someone is waiting to come in. The question is who though? If it's LVG and we dick him around I can imagine him just going 'thanks but no thanks you've waited too long'

The only other option that might be in the wings is Carlo - so I can't imagine LVG waiting around 2 more weeks...

keane2097

lordgoat wrote: »

The more you think about it the more it seems that someone is waiting to come in. The question is who though? If it's LVG and we dick him around I can imagine him just going 'thanks but no thanks you've waited too long'

The only other option that might be in the wings is Carlo - so I can't imagine LVG waiting around 2 more weeks...

I had read some speculation in the last few days that it was trying to get all the contracts sorted out for the rest of the Iron Tulip's desired staff that was holding everything up as there was a desire to announce the entire ticket at once.

Suppose if they were trying to get people released from a few different contracts it could take a bit of time.

Reedsie

lordgoat wrote: »

The only other option that might be in the wings is Carlo - so I can't imagine LVG waiting around 2 more weeks...

I don't think LVG is in all that much of a rush. Hasn't he said that he would either take a job in England or retire. I can't imagine him taking the Spurs job over United to be honest.

Anyway by all accounts all we're waiting on is the confirmation. He's 1/33 with the bookies.
I think (some) people are losing their heads a bit over nothing here.

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

I genuinely don't know!

knows the club and can help Van Gaal settle in.
Club legend.
most decorated player.
held in high regard by everybody at the club.
seen as potential next manager.
mistakes made the last time by Moyes in pretty much cutting all links with the backroom staff who had good relationship with the players.


its pretty clear why the board would want him there, especially seen as Van Gaal is only expected to be there for 3 years.

Rubber_Soul

homerjay2005 wrote: »

mistakes made the last time by Moyes in pretty much cutting all links with the backroom staff who had good relationship with the players.

Moyes made Giggs a part of his backroom staff.

homerjay2005

StarshipPooper wrote: »

Moyes made Giggs a part of his backroom staff.

ok, and?!

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

knows the club and can help Van Gaal settle in.
Club legend.
most decorated player.
held in high regard by everybody at the club.
seen as potential next manager.
mistakes made the last time by Moyes in pretty much cutting all links with the backroom staff who had good relationship with the players.


its pretty clear why the board would want him there, especially seen as Van Gaal is only expected to be there for 3 years.

I wouldn't have thought any of that would be stuff the board would be so passionate about as to stop them completing a deal with someone like Van Gaal if Van Gaal was really against it.

Rubber_Soul

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ok, and?!

Van Gaal is doing exactly what Moyes did, yet you say it's a mistake on Moyes' part. Your post seems to imply (at least to my sleep deprived mind) that the club is rectifying that mistake by repeating it.

billyhead

The dutch squad have a rest day tomorrow so LVG will e free to formally be confirmed as our next 1st coach or maybe I am beiong a little optimistic:D

Whatsisname

Star saying Liverpool have moved ahead of us to sign Carvahlo

Vic Vinegar

Whatsisname wrote: »

Star saying Liverpool have moved ahead of us to sign Carvahlo

I think our interest has cooled. His release clause is too high anyway imo. £37 million, could get Fabregas for that.

Lord TSC

StarshipPooper wrote: »

Moyes made Giggs a part of his backroom staff.

Always got the feeling Moyes appointed Giggs to look good, rather than to seek his advice and help when needed. There were plenty of stories by the end of the reign that Moyes often completely ignored Giggs' input to the extent Giggs had stopped going to staff meetings.

Guessing the idea this time would be to put Giggs into a role where he couldn't be ignored (Assistant manager) or seek assurances that LvG wouldn't marginalize him.

IF that's what's happening; personally, I agree with the idea earlier that the delay is to keep him separate from the departure of Rio, Vidic et al.

Antibac

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Always got the feeling Moyes appointed Giggs to look good, rather than to seek his advice and help when needed. There were plenty of stories by the end of the reign that Moyes often completely ignored Giggs' input to the extent Giggs had stopped going to staff meetings.

Guessing the idea this time would be to put Giggs into a role where he couldn't be ignored (Assistant manager) or seek assurances that LvG wouldn't marginalize him.

IF that's what's happening; personally, I agree with the idea earlier that the delay is to keep him separate from the departure of Rio, Vidic et al.

Couldn't agree with this more. Always felt as the Moyes appointment of Giggs was to keep fans onside. When Giggs started offering opinions that differed he wasn't interested

Rubber_Soul

Antibac wrote: »

Couldn't agree with this more. Always felt as the Moyes appointment of Giggs was to keep fans onside. When Giggs started offering opinions that differed he wasn't interested

I agree with it too, but what happens if Giggs disagrees with Van Gaal? If the speculation that the hold up is due to the nature of Giggs' role in the set up turns out to be true, then would it not be fair to assume that Van Gaal doesn't want him either and is just doing it to placate the board/fans?

StarshipPooper

StarshipPooper wrote: »

I agree with it too, but what happens if Giggs disagrees with Van Gaal? If the speculation that the hold up is due to the nature of Giggs' role in the set up turns out to be true, then would it not be fair to assume that Van Gaal doesn't want him either and is just doing it to placate the board/fans?

From all of the articles written about Van Gaal, the interviews and videos; I don't think he's the type of guy to placate anyone.

irishfeen

Mark Ogden
‏@M0gdenTelegraph
Big news for #mufc. Being informed that Kroos is a done deal. Unveiling of Luke Shaw and Toni Kroos next week.



EDIT - Fake account, ah just for a second ....

ShaneU

irishfeen wrote: »

Mark Ogden
‏@M0gdenTelegraph
Big news for #mufc. Being informed that Kroos is a done deal. Unveiling of Luke Shaw and Toni Kroos next week.

Fake account :rolleyes:

Whatsisname

irishfeen wrote: »

Mark Ogden
‏@M0gdenTelegraph
Big news for #mufc. Being informed that Kroos is a done deal. Unveiling of Luke Shaw and Toni Kroos next week.

Fake, O in "Ogden" is a zero, but thanks for breaking my heart

Will I Amnt

irishfeen wrote: »

Mark Ogden
‏@M0gdenTelegraph
Big news for #mufc. Being informed that Kroos is a done deal. Unveiling of Luke Shaw and Toni Kroos next week.

That doesn't sound like a real account to me...

The_Kew_Tour

ahhhhhh noooooo

irishfeen

ShaneU wrote: »

Fake account

Fcuk sake double checking and I noticed that

TheFullDuck

irishfeen wrote: »

Mark Ogden
‏@M0gdenTelegraph
Big news for #mufc. Being informed that Kroos is a done deal. Unveiling of Luke Shaw and Toni Kroos next week.

fake twitter account, real one is https://twitter.com/MOgdenTelegraph

if only it were true though

irishfeen

Whatsisname wrote: »

Fake, O in "Ogden" is a zero, but thanks for breaking my heart

Don't worry I feel as bad - fcuk sake! - sorry people.

Antibac

StarshipPooper wrote: »

I agree with it too, but what happens if Giggs disagrees with Van Gaal? If the speculation that the hold up is due to the nature of Giggs' role in the set up turns out to be true, then would it not be fair to assume that Van Gaal doesn't want him either and is just doing it to placate the board/fans?

But with Van Gaal it is his way of operating. I also don't think he would be lacking confidence to say yes or no to someone's suggestion from his staff.

The_Kew_Tour

in fairness most of us have got caught with twitter accounts. I have few times. now I just ignore bar usual

Liam McPoyle

There has been a mention in the Mirror that we could rival Arsenal for Benzema.

I was raging when we missed out on him before, what would people think of him in the grand scheme say if we were to get a LB, CB & MF?

Coleman Slawski

Coleman Slawski wrote: »

There has been a mention in the Mirror that we could rival Arsenal for Benzema.

I was raging when we missed out on him before, what would people think of him in the grand scheme say if we were to get a LB, CB & MF?

First thing where does he play?? Are we not bloated up top already?
Would love to have him but not sure about where he would fit in.

irishfeen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

in fairness most of us have got caught with twitter accounts. I have few times. now I just ignore bar usual

Ha the real Mark Ogden is actually one of the very few that seem to know his stuff so the little p.rick with the fake account caught me out...

irishfeen

Coleman Slawski wrote: »

There has been a mention in the Mirror that we could rival Arsenal for Benzema.

I was raging when we missed out on him before, what would people think of him in the grand scheme say if we were to get a LB, CB & MF?

I know I just caught out with a fake account but the Mirror seems to be the least trustworthy rag of the whole lot - almost always without fail turns out to be s.hite.

glued

If Giggs has aspirations to go into coaching would he not be better off managing the reserves like Ole did? Couldn't he still be involved in coaching the seniors in some capacity while learning from van Gaal too.

I wouldn't be comfortable with Giggs, with no real experience, taking over from van Gaal in 3-5 years with just assistant experience. I don't share the obsession of wanting to develop your own managers in-house. I actually think that a change every 4-5 years would be a good thing for the club. Longevity is great if you can consolidate power like Ferguson did but nobody is capable of repeating such a feat in the modern era. Typically, longevity and repetitiveness incite laziness, comfort and stagnation. Change brings about a new approach, although not always a successful one, but if good managers are chosen regularly then I don't see why the club couldn't continue to be successful with multiple managers in control over a period of time.

If you look at the current managerial success of the modern era you think of Pep Guardiola and Jose Mourinho. Two managers who will and have changed club regularly during their careers, yes Pep has only been at two clubs but he won't be in Munich for 5+years. Understanding the concept of Manchester United doesn't mean that the manager is automatically going to be a success. People need to get over the romance of club hero turned manager leads team to success fantasy. Football is a unforgiving game and selecting a candidate based on anything other that appropriateness is a recipe for disaster.

There is a definite feel that the club are preparing Giggs for the future managerial position but there is just a ominous feeling that they're trying to force a square peg into a round hole. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't attempt to train our own managers; we should! But let's not make another Moyes and let personal relationships get in the way of the success of Manchester United.

uncleoswald

Could Van Gaal be still be getting some form of compensation from Bayern after his sacking that will be nullified if he takes a new club positions before a certain date? I've heard of such clauses before but not sure how much of that is just mindless speculation.

I'm not overly impressed with those Van Gaal quotes in the Guardian piece by Jamie Jackson. He seems too eager to build himself up and take credit for other's successes. I just hope his best years are not behind him and we are not left with an arrogant autocrat with an over inflated opinion of himself.