Manchester United Superthread 2014 mod warning #8081

MagicMarker

I think I'll trust the opinion of the people who hired Woodward to do his job over a few blokes on an internet forum, thanks all the same.

glued

homerjay2005 wrote: »

again, where did i blame Woodward for the loss in revenue? thats twice now you have accused me of blaiming woodward for something that i have not done.

you seem awfully defensive of our CE and seem to know alot of my dislike of him for somebody who has so few posts on here until recently.

hmmmmm

What a preposterous response, you know exactly what you were insinuating.

Cypher_sounds

I think the only player we would be able to get from Munich is Shaqiri and I would love to see him at ot.

Lets see how he does in Brasil, maybe then we will go for hi when he cost 10mil more.

bmcc10

keane2097 wrote: »

When did Madrid start having a lack of midfielders?

:rolleyes:

bmcc10

brinty wrote: »

Go home you're drunk....

You seem extremly confident on this. Whats your source and how much are you willing to wager on it that we'll sign him.

That man has sources spread out around the globe don't you know?

homerjay2005

ericzeking wrote: »

except the season ticket holders who are being fleeced!!!!!! :cool:

i think we are getting great value for money to be honest, £28 a game.

some of course are paying £49 but alof of the ground are paying under £40 and you cannot argue with that.

the one "advantage" of no european football is the average fan will have up to an extra £250* in their pockets compared to last season.

* CL tickets are £5, £7 and up to £10 more expensive as the stages progress

Mitch Connor

homerjay2005 wrote: »

lets park this discussion then until next seasons finances come out and i think you are missing the point i am trying to make.

Woodward (according to the BBC) claimed the loss in revenue was only going to be £30million but the overall effect on our finances is going to be almost double that along with our profits being hit which is what ogdan is saying

anyway, as i said this will all become clear in 12 months time though of course i am sure the club will have plans for extra friendlies and will look to seal some new deals that werent planned, to make up the revenue gap.

This is your original comment:

"Mark Ogdan claiming the total cost of the Moyes reign is actually £50.4million and not the partly sum that Woodward tried to depict yesterday on the WS call."

So lets break down the point I was originally discussing, and you claim I was missing (forgetting stuff, seemingly).

Woodward said lost CL income next season would be in the mid 30million range. Ogden said it would be 35million. They agree, Ogden isn't showing Woodward up.

Woodward said that the payoff to moyes was single digit millions. Ogden said it was 7 point something million. They agree, Ogden isn't showing Woodward up.

Woodward commented on the drop in PL prize money. Ogden put it at 8.5million in lost revenue by comparison to targets. They agree, Ogden isn't showing Woodward up.

So, what we paltry sum are you talking about when talking about Woodward in the original comment? The payoff on its own (as I assumed) - the loss of CL revenue or the drop in PL prize money?

All Ogden has done is add the three together, which were all discussed by Woodward in the call. If you weren't talking about the payoff when discussing the paltry figure Woodward seemingly tried to pass off (7million vs 50million) then I really have no clue what you were getting at as the 50million figure comes from what Woodward said on the call. If you were talking about the payoff, then I was correct when saying you were comparing one slice of the pie vs the entire pie, and trying to make out like Woodward was hiding something.

As for talking about projections etc....

We came close enough to targets (finance wise) this season. Semi of the League cup (over achieved target), poor in the FA Cup (under achieved), 7th in the league (3 places off target - 8million seemingly) and quater final of the CL (on target). So financials this year aren't massively off. The projections are what was discussed on the call, the 35million in lost CL revenue next season would have been projected in the accounts, and the earnings targets will need to be adjusted accordingly. I don't know where you are getting you idea that the losses could be double what has been discussed.

brinty

bangkok wrote: »

after the german cup final tomorrow, expect an announcement a few days later...

Source
put a wager on it it

or

GTFO

Mitch Connor

MagicMarker wrote: »

I think I'll trust the opinion of the people who hired Woodward to do his job over a few blokes on an internet forum, thanks all the same.

So we should have kept Moyes on indefinitely then? the same people hired him...

bullvine

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So we should have kept Moyes on indefinitely then? the same people hired him...

I would like to think it was solely Fergie who hired Moyes.

Mitch Connor

homerjay2005 wrote: »

nobody has ever doubted this and i dont know why this keeps coming up.

what people do doubt however is his ability to take over from David Gill, a football man and run manchester united, the football club and not the commercial side of things which he is obviously very good at.

in an ideal world, Woodward would remain at the club as head of revenue but we would have had lined up somebody else to replace Gill.

i am sure every one of us on here has some for of expertise in something, that doesnt mean to say we could take over a new job tomorrow and automatically be excellent in that role.

i know people need time and all this, but unfortunately mistakes are being made that are costly to the club. its the same set up as Giggs - excellent player for us and integral to the club, but perhaps his time as manager will come in the future and not just now, as much and all as it would be good for the sentiment of the club.

anyway, Woodward i am sure is learning and with Van Gaal on board, he will learn even quicker.

one thing to add - its also very strange to see Woodward fans see him as the sole reason the club is milking money - he isnt. we have one of the biggest fan bases in world sport and have up to £100million a year now coming up before the team even kicks a ball due to TV rights. add in a stadium full of 75,000 fans every week. we have added alot of commerical revenue over the last few years but the clubs global stature makes that fairly easy to achieve and revenue/turnover of every top club has rocketed in the last 5 years. in fact, one could argue that we are actually falling behind the other big 3 in terms of growth.

City will turn over more than £300million this year for f8ck sake and they are a much smaller club than ours.

Someone hired to take care of footballing contracts and contacts would be a good situation - a director of football of sorts, but really with just responsbility of executing the transfer wishes of the manager.

Oh, and on City turning over 300million - not a fair comparison, given that a large dose of that is considered illegal by Uefa! If they were turning over on market value rather than what they pay themselves through their sister corporations they wouldn't be earning near 300million, not even close.

Cypher_sounds

bullvine wrote: »

I would like to think it was solely Fergie who hired Moyes.

In fairness fergie didn't pay his wages so he couldn't have had the final decision. Of course fergies opinion would have been highly valued but I doubt he was holding a gun to glazers big head.

redbaron_99

bangkok wrote: »

after the german cup final tomorrow, expect an announcement a few days later...

I reckons you're following corrienation on twitter.

bullvine

Cypher_sounds wrote: »

In fairness fergie didn't pay his wages so he couldn't have had the final decision. Of course fergies opinion would have been highly valued but I doubt he was holding a gun to glazers big head.

Yea but its pretty obvious that he told the club who he wanted and they just accepted it.

Unfortunately. :mad:

MagicMarker

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So we should have kept Moyes on indefinitely then? the same people hired him...

Yes, we should have kept Moyes on indefinitely, that's exactly what I said, well done. *slow clap*

Moyes was hired with the best of intentions, recommended by the greatest manager in the history of the game. No one could have foreseen the season we went on to have. He showed he wasn't up to the job, so he was sacked. Simple.

There is no reason to think Woodward is not up to the job, other than rumours and speculation. No one here is as informed as the people who decide Woodward's fate, so far he's been able to bring in Mata, possibly Shaw and Van Gaal. That's good going as far as I'm concerned and by all accounts there's more to come.

homerjay2005

bullvine wrote: »

Yea but its pretty obvious that he told the club who he wanted and they just accepted it.

Unfortunately. :mad:

jobs for the boys as they say.

Will I Amnt

homerjay2005 wrote: »

jobs for the boys as they say.

It's a wonder Darren Ferguson didn't get it...

homerjay2005

Will I Amnt wrote: »

It's a wonder Darren Ferguson didn't get it...

Fat Sam surely next in line if Fergie got his way this time again?

TheDoc

Tieing up how Moyes got hired and how Woodward got hired is laughably incorrect.

From the "facts", as in the only confirmation you can get on who was involved in what.

Moyes hiring - Glazers, Charlton, Ferguson
Woodward - Glazers, Board, independant recruitment assessor

The way in which the two were hired couldn't be more different. Moyes it would appear came as a recommendation, and didn't even have to do an interview.

Woodward, while having a good reputation already, had to interview and outline his thoughts and plans on how to advance the clubs finances etc. His selection is subject to ratification by the board.

He wasn't "refered" or wasn't in on a recommendation, and any firm reporting available online indicates he was one of a few candidates.

There is more to a Chief Exec role then transfers and contracts. I appreciate we only concern or care with that end of it, but his role and remit goes far beyond that. And let's not forget he isn't a one man army, he has a team that works with him. He can't be evyerhwere at once.

The intepretation of the third party involvement for the Mata deal is also grossly misunderstood in my view. It would be the case that after the player was identified as wanted by the manager, Woodward and his staff would have created a brief to which was paseed onto the third aprty mediator, including the obvious like the contract etc, but also the remit to which they could negotiate and bend. The job I work in now, was all done through a third party, and I only met my employes the day I started the job. It's not uncommon practice, and it's not a case of the employer not being involved.

They pass a brief and remit to the third party who proceed with the dealings for them. There is credit here in regards to Woodward providing a brief that he was confident enough would land the player, feeling he didn't need to get involved himself.

Don't forget this is a bloke who has a history and experience with working numbers and is doing EXCELLENT work in landing corporate deals and spronsorship. It could well be the case that he is struggling to deal with the crazy world of player negotiations and transfers, and if so that's no major damnation on him. It's not his only criteria for which he was signed.

If this summer shows another set of examples where he is struggling to deal with player negotiations, I wouldn't be suprised to see a "sporting Director" come on board to take this over, potentially a former player, who has intricute understanding of this business. Which will leave Woodward to deal with what he does best.

All that is premature though. It's highly probable that after last summer and january, Woodward could be more relaxed and confident going into this window knowing what he needs to do to get things done.

Big test for him, especially considering it would appear LVG has ratified a target list with the club, and it's now down to him to go sort it out.

Fingers crossed he has learned his lessons and is eager to correct some errors of the past two windows.

While fans and ourselves might subject Woodward to critiscm in regards transfer dealings, I'd be pretty confident in saying that he is providing the sort of percentages and figures that have the board comfortably confident they chose the right man. For all intensive purposes it looks like the ommision of Champions league football is barely going to tickle our revenue streams, which is simply incredible considering it has broken so many clubs down the years when they missed out on just ONE year in the CL.

Larry Wildman

homerjay2005 wrote: »

what people do doubt however is his ability to take over from David Gill, a football man.

David Gill was not / is not a football man.

You make him sound like Matt Busby!

Gill's an accountant.

None of us know the inner workings of the club but I'd be reluctant to criticise Woodward. He's given transfer targets but can't be judged solely on whether we land them.

TheDoc

David Gill a football man?

Oh will you come off it. Gill was a highly regarded accountant, who happened to have a long and fruitfull relationship with one of the best managers of all time.

A manager, who had a preference to be involved with transfers himself. It was regular and frequent for Ferguson to sit in with Gill for both new signings, and contract negotiations for existing players.

In the cases where he wasn't involved, it was typically a player the club were confident of signing, saw little issue knowing the player wanted to come, and contract negotiations were a formality.

It's worth remembering for example that Ferguson organised Ronaldo's move to the club pretty much entirely himself while onsite at Sporting, with the contractual agreement in the end being a formality.

Managers are becoming less and less involved in the transfer dealings in terms of specifically sitting in on dealings. Most now leave that work to their execs/sportings directors, which leaves them to focus more elsewhere.

Ferguson and Gill was an explicitly unique situation, but don't be fooled into thinking Gill wasn't shaky in the beginning, or even towards the end. He missed out and let some big players slip through the cracks.

Gill also set the expectation via an address last season that the manager coming into the club while needing Premier league and European experience, must also not be someone who will tear the squad apart. And that a key criteria was someone experienced with working with youth and existing squads.

He set the precident that followed whereby the squad was to remain intact, in that you couldn't "disassemble" a championship winning squad. I'd have thought any football man would know that you can't stand idle and expect repeated success.

So much rose tinted glasses going on with our club now that things have gone sour this season, but let's try keep somewhat realistic as to what has gone before.

RobertKK

Some of the stuff coming out of Bayern Munich does point to the possibility of Toni Kroos leaving.
Effenburg appealed for him to stay, Pep said he wants him to stay and said the only reason Kroos would be leaving Bayern is for more money .
The Bild claims Pep has held talks with Kroos to try and convince him to stay and urged him to reject Man United's cash.

The word is though the head people at Bayern do not want him on the top wages there like their other established stars, it will be their own fault if he leaves.

redbaron_99

RobertKK wrote: »

Some of the stuff coming out of Bayern Munich does point to the possibility of Toni Kroos leaving.
Effenburg appealed for him to stay, Pep said he wants him to stay and said the only reason Kroos would be leaving Bayern is for more money .
The Bild claims Pep has held talks with Kroos to try and convince him to stay and urged him to reject Man United's cash.

The word is though the head people at Bayern do not want him on the top wages there like their other established stars, it will be their own fault if he leaves.

You could hardly blame him wanting to leave. Gotze wouldn't be as important to the squad as Kroos, but is on a lot more money. It'll be a great signing if it happens.

homerjay2005

TheDoc wrote: »

David Gill a football man?

Oh will you come off it. Gill was a highly regarded accountant

Larry Wildman wrote: »

David Gill was not / is not a football man.

You make him sound like Matt Busby!

Gill's an accountant.
.

so a man who was not only CE of our club for 10 years, but also elected to the board of the FA and European Club council is not a football man?

by your logic so, Howard Webb is not one of the top football refs in the world, but is just a police officer along with the many other men who dont have a background in football.

im sure you both dont work in football, does that mean your not football men also?

Fenix

LVG's interactions with the press make it hard for me to want anyone else at OT.

glued

Also Kroos is one the most overrated players. The droolers are out strong in force proclaiming that this guy is the second coming of god, our saviour. He's got fantastic ability but he seems to be one of these players that plays well in the big games and then goes missing. I'd also be wary that the excellent Bayern that everybody talks about from last season didn't have Kroos in the side during that spell.

In saying that he would be a fantastic signing as he's got the ability to be the best in the world in his position. But there is a huge inconsistency there. It looks as if he's going to leave Bayern and I hope he comes to us.

brinty

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so a man who was not only CE of our club for 10 years, but also elected to the board of the FA and European Club council is not a football man?

by your logic so, Howard Webb is not one of the top football refs in the world, but is just a police officer along with the many other men who dont have a background in football.

im sure you both dont work in football, does that mean your not football men also?

Blody well said Homer,

Mark Zuckerberg's expertise is in computer programming......... what does he know about running a multi billion dollar business

FFS just because the man's profession was accountancy (as is Ed Woodward) and he's not a football man. I've never heard such rubbish in my life.

The man's background is in business and like it or not Manchester United is a bloody business which happens to be a football club. As much as we're all emotive about the club at the end of the day we have flip all say in the running of it on a daily basis as a business becuase most of us wouldn't have the first clue how to run it.

All the supposed football men amongst us would have the club bankrupt in six weeks if they were left in charge of it.

Manchester united as a business is one of the most successful and very few profitable clubs in the sports industry and who's getting any praise for that. No one gets any praise cos its all about what they don't do.

Some people in here love to kick a guy about the place not matter what he does. God forgive me for saying this but tis nothing but typical irish begrudgery..

Will I Amnt

brinty wrote: »

Blody well said Homer,

Mark Zuckerberg's expertise is in computer programming......... what does he know about running a multi billion dollar business

FFS just because the man's profession was accountancy (as is Ed Woodward) and he's not a football man. I've never heard such rubbish in my life.

The man's background is in business and like it or not Manchester United is a bloody business which happens to be a football club. As much as we're all emotive about the club at the end of the day we have flip all say in the running of it on a daily basis as a business becuase most of us wouldn't have the first clue how to run.

All the supposed football men amongst us would have the club bankrupt in six weeks if they were left i charge of it.

Manchester united as a business is the most successful and very few profitable clubs in the sports industry and who's getting any praise for that. No one gets any praise cos its all about what they don't do.

Some people in here love to kick a guy about the place not matter what he does. God forgive me for saying this but tis nothing but typical irish begrudgery..

So which side of the argument are you on, you seem to switch from one side to the other there

redbaron_99

glued wrote: »

Also Kroos is one the most overrated players. The droolers are out strong in force proclaiming that this guy is the second coming of god, our saviour. He's got fantastic ability but he seems to be one of these players that plays well in the big games and then goes missing. I'd also be wary that the excellent Bayern that everybody talks about from last season didn't have Kroos in the side during that spell.

In saying that he would be a fantastic signing as he's got the ability to be the best in the world in his position. But there is a huge inconsistency there. It looks as if he's going to leave Bayern and I hope he comes to us.

Wouldn't say that. There is a sense at Bayern that he is a bit lazy at times, and games can pass him by, particularly against the smaller teams. I'm not so sure about all that to be honest. I've watched him play a lot, and yes he is quite reserved in his style, but far from inconsistent.
I wouldnt be calling him the great saviour of United, though. Kroos will not offer a huge amount of mobility and work rate in the middle. The ideal situation would be to have Kroos alongside a very energetic midfielder. Good combination.

homerjay2005

Will I Amnt wrote: »

So which side of the argument are you on, you seem to switch from one side to the other there

not even sure this should be an argument. Gill went on to prove that he is a football man, Woodward now has to do the same.

people here back up Woodward to the hills, but then discredit Gill as if to say he was only good because Fergie was there.

RobertKK

Well I am a fan of Ed Woodward, as I think he is doing a fabulous job.

Whether it is Gill or Woodward, their primary job has not been football itself, it has been about running a business in a successful manner, one does not have to be a football person to run a football club successfully, they need to be good with numbers, same as with any business.

Woodward for example is not out scouting players, it is his job to make the numbers work if a player is wanted by the club and to sell a player and get the price available.
No different to a farmer buying and selling cattle. You just have to know the worth of whatever is being traded, and like a farmer with his cattle or sheep, one can't be sure how much a player is worth until they try and buy or sell that player and who wants the player.

brinty

Will I Amnt wrote: »

So which side of the argument are you on, you seem to switch from one side to the other there

Will I am on the side of Woodward is doing a bloody good job and he needs to concentrate on the footballing side of the business this summer to ensure we get the right manager in and the right players.

He's developed the brand of Manchester United and expanded our revenue streams globally whereby we can absorb the most of the revenue we'll miss out on next season by not being in Europe.

The clubs revenue has grown year on year for the last god knows how long even in periods of underperformance in leagues and europe. Thats because of the efforts of Gill and Woodward in developing brnad Manchester United.

But as can be seen people will ignore all the good they've both done to suit their argument.

glued

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Wouldn't say that. There is a sense at Bayern that he is a bit lazy at times, and games can pass him by, particularly against the smaller teams. I'm not so sure about all that to be honest. I've watched him play a lot, and yes he is quite reserved in his style, but far from inconsistent.
I wouldnt be calling him the great saviour of United, though. Kroos will not offer a huge amount of mobility and work rate in the middle. The ideal situation would be to have Kroos alongside a very energetic midfielder. Good combination.

Calling him lazy is a lazy explanation tbh. He's got consistency issues.

We should pay £30+ for William Carvalho if that's what were paying for Shaw. Carvalho is going to have a cracking world cup. He was the best player in the Primeira Liga this season. Although Jardim wants him at Monaco and Sporting want 45 Million for him.

TheDoc

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so a man who was not only CE of our club for 10 years, but also elected to the board of the FA and European Club council is not a football man?

by your logic so, Howard Webb is not one of the top football refs in the world, but is just a police officer along with the many other men who dont have a background in football.

im sure you both dont work in football, does that mean your not football men also?

That's being deliberately twisting.

The common reference for the term "Football man" is someone who has an intricate niche understanding of the workings and operations of football, coming from personal experience.

Your reference to Gill being a football man, unless you want to correct yourself ( which is fine btw, I'm questioning the post, not you) is that he had an expert knowledge of football in the sense of the game, it's operations, and every nook and cranny in it.

Anytime you hear someone being labelled a "Football man" it's someone championing or praising their intricate knowledge and expertise of the game.

There is a pretty big difference between the statements "Gill was a football man" and "Gill had extensive experience working as a Chief Exec in Football". And going by your post I think you mean the latter, which is fine and correct, but wasn't implied in your post.

Labelling him a football man would be on par with saying he knew where the squad needed strengthening and went and did it of his own accord. Which was not ever the case.

He had in the end extensive experience and obviously knowledge on how the ordeal works, after working closely with Ferguson over a long period in hundreds of these scenarios.

I wouldn't label Gill anything negative, he was 50% of a highly succesful team along with Ferguson who were able to deal with contract negotiations for existing players with little issues or controversy, bring a high amount of players to the club including some crackers, while also being extremely sensitive and diplomatic when it came to letting players go, ensuring there was work done to ensure a departing player had a good fit.

That last point is something I hope our club doesnt lose. We don't, or have rarely, cut players lose and thrown them to the wolves. In most cases the club has worked on the players behalf to organise moves to suit them, good moves, even in most cases when they are facilitating a multi million pound loss.

TheDoc

Also re: Kroos, I said it when I was in Munich in January. Something is not right there.

This is a player who is exceptionally talented, has formed a core part of a succesfull team over two seasons, even when it looked for all intensive purposes he was being replaced ( re Thiago) and yet you walk around the Allianz arena and his face is NOWHERE to be seen in the public areas.

Thiago, Aliba, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Robben, Ribery. You name it, there is a 10ft poster of all the players around the public walkways, aswell as in the press area. Yet Kroos is nowhere to be seen, anywhere.

In the shop every player in the first team squad, bar three, THREE, have printed jerseys in full supply on the shelf to take. You need to specifically ask for a Kroos jersey to be printed.

It made little sense to me at the time. I asked the tour guide why Kroos was so woefully marketed around the stadium and in fairness to her she gave an honest response in that like any club, they will push the brand of flair players or long serving "legends. When I commented that then there probably is truth in the rumours Kroos is unhappy the way he is regarded at the club, she brushed on from the question.

There is a 101 factors as to why a player might want to stay or leave etc., but I think a major one that might upset you is not getting the recognition that you clearly deserve. Someone like Kroos will never have to worry about money in their life, so their focus is more on the things like success and respect.

Same with Ronaldo, it wasn't so long ago he was being quoted as saying he finds it difficult in how the Madrid crowd don't seem to "love him".

Lucas Hood

glued wrote: »

Also Kroos is one the most overrated players. The droolers are out strong in force proclaiming that this guy is the second coming of god, our saviour. He's got fantastic ability but he seems to be one of these players that plays well in the big games and then goes missing. I'd also be wary that the excellent Bayern that everybody talks about from last season didn't have Kroos in the side during that spell.

In saying that he would be a fantastic signing as he's got the ability to be the best in the world in his position. But there is a huge inconsistency there. It looks as if he's going to leave Bayern and I hope he comes to us.

Kroos wasn't in the team because he was injured , he was playing the number 10 role before he got injured and Muller was keeping Robben out of the team on the wing.

He was most certainly a big part of the team before that injury.

Son Of A Vidic

Fenix wrote: »

LVG's interactions with the press make it hard for me to want anyone else at OT.

Love the way he handles the media right. Can't wait to see him doing the Friday press conferences.

TheDoc

glued wrote: »

Also Kroos is one the most overrated players. The droolers are out strong in force proclaiming that this guy is the second coming of god, our saviour. He's got fantastic ability but he seems to be one of these players that plays well in the big games and then goes missing. I'd also be wary that the excellent Bayern that everybody talks about from last season didn't have Kroos in the side during that spell.

In saying that he would be a fantastic signing as he's got the ability to be the best in the world in his position. But there is a huge inconsistency there. It looks as if he's going to leave Bayern and I hope he comes to us.

glued

TheDoc wrote: »

Also re: Kroos, I said it when I was in Munich in January. Something is not right there.

This is a player who is exceptionally talented, has formed a core part of a succesfull team over two seasons, even when it looked for all intensive purposes he was being replaced ( re Thiago) and yet you walk around the Allianz arena and his face is NOWHERE to be seen in the public areas.

Thiago, Aliba, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Robben, Ribery. You name it, there is a 10ft poster of all the players around the public walkways, aswell as in the press area. Yet Kroos is nowhere to be seen, anywhere.

In the shop every player in the first team squad, bar three, THREE, have printed jerseys in full supply on the shelf to take. You need to specifically ask for a Kroos jersey to be printed.

It made little sense to me at the time. I asked the tour guide why Kroos was so woefully marketed around the stadium and in fairness to her she gave an honest response in that like any club, they will push the brand of flair players or long serving "legends. When I commented that then there probably is truth in the rumours Kroos is unhappy the way he is regarded at the club, she brushed on from the question.

There is a 101 factors as to why a player might want to stay or leave etc., but I think a major one that might upset you is not getting the recognition that you clearly deserve. Someone like Kroos will never have to worry about money in their life, so their focus is more on the things like success and respect.

Same with Ronaldo, it wasn't so long ago he was being quoted as saying he finds it difficult in how the Madrid crowd don't seem to "love him".

Oh it's absolutely no secret that the Bayern fans don't love him. He's not a Lahm, even Muller who wouldn't be a fan favourite either is looked at in much higher stature than Kroos.

Sometimes the criticism of him is way over the top but he just doesn't seem to fit in. I'm not sure if this stems from his apparent leaking of information about the Bayern and German teams tot he press but it's certainly a strange one to figure out.

Similarly, Fabregas isn't a big fan favourite either. But his drop has been from his whinging and moaning about game time and then performing poorly on the pitch when he got his chance.


Also FWIW from my experience most Bayern fans see the midfield duo as being Martinez and Thiago next season with Schweinsteiger on the bench. Rode will also be expecting some game time too. Never mind Lahm who Pep seems to want to play there too.

glued

TheDoc wrote: »

Let me break down my post so you can understand it.

• Kroos is overrated
• He plays well in the big games for Bayern but is often poor and inconsistent too
• During Bayern's best spell last year he wasn't in the team due to injury. People often refer to how well he played in that Bayern team but he didn't play in it at all and when he was injured they started playing much better.

TheDoc

glued wrote: »

Let me break down my post so you can understand it.

• Kroos is overrated
• He plays well in the big games for Bayern but is often poor and inconsistent too
• During Bayern's best spell last year he wasn't in the team due to injury. People often refer to how well he played in that Bayern team but he didn't play in it at all and when he was injured they started playing much better.

Let me respond

Kroos is overrated

Please see pic

He plays well in the big games for Bayern but is often poor and inconsistent too

I'm not getting into tit for tat in terms of who watches more Bundesliga, but as someone who watched Bayern weekly, simply to watch Kroos, I would be of the opinion that he is just as effective in the smaller games as the big. He completely controls the pace of what Bayern want to do at any given time.

During Bayern's best spell last year he wasn't in the team due to injury. People often refer to how well he played in that Bayern team but he didn't play in it at all and when he was injured they started playing much better.

He was in the team when he wasn't injured, and was a fair step above the rest of the squad who made a lackluster start to the season. Coupling his ommision via injury to when the squad got it's act together and stopped being rubbish isn't exactly equaling your point.

Coupled with the fact Kroos has pretty much established himself as a starter in the German first team, from last year....

We need a dynamic CM that is comfortable in position and can launch attacks and can ramp the tempo up on demand. Welcome to the wonderful land of Toni Kroos.

He can play at 10, but he's actually looking more and more accomplished operating from deep. It's scary how he just never gets flustered and makes it look so easy and pedestrian.

bangkok

did I just read that toni kroos is over rated??!!! :eek::eek:

homerjay2005

Tony Kroos is the best player i have seen play (in the flesh) in a long long time, the guy is just incredibly gifted.

he wont solve all our problems, but he will solve alot of them. put a hard working /destructive midfielder beside him and pacey/creative players in front of him (Rooney, Mata,Adnan) and we have the basis of an excellent attacking team.

Kroos is as close to a replacement for Scholes as there is playing football right now.

he had an excellent goal scoring record last season (a goal every 4 games) but that has totally diminished this season.

glued

TheDoc wrote: »

He was in the team when he wasn't injured, and was a fair step above the rest of the squad who made a lackluster start to the season. Coupling his ommision via injury to when the squad got it's act together and stopped being rubbish isn't exactly equaling your point.

What are you talking about? You're putting words in my mouth now. I never said Bayern Munich were rubbish when Kroos was in the team; I said that they were better when he was out of the side injured and they most certainly were a better side. My reference to that point was because people often have suggested in the past that Kroos was a part of that side that destroyed Barcelona; He wasn't. When Bayern Munich were at their best last season Kroos was out injured. If you had bothered to read my post you would of noticed that or perhaps I'm being naive in expecting that much from you.

Coupled with the fact Kroos has pretty much established himself as a starter in the German first team, from last year....

We need a dynamic CM that is comfortable in position and can launch attacks and can ramp the tempo up on demand. Welcome to the wonderful land of Toni Kroos.

He can play at 10, but he's actually looking more and more accomplished operating from deep. It's scary how he just never gets flustered and makes it look so easy and pedestrian.

Again that's a pretty preposterous remark to make. I never for one second suggested that he was a bad player; I merely noted the point that he was overrated. Two quite different things altogether. He deserves his place in the national team...

TheDoc

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Tony Kroos is the best player i have seen play in a long long time, the guy is just incredibly gifted.

he wont solve all our problems, but he will solve alot of them. put a hard working /destructive midfielder beside him and pacey/creative players in front of him (Rooney, Mata,Adnan) and we have the basis of an excellent attacking team.

Kroos is as close to a replacement for Scholes as there is playing football right now.

he had an excellent goal scoring record last season (a goal every 4 games) but that has totally diminished this season.

You know that is pretty much in one line the best description in favour of Kroos.

So much of our issues this season have been playing just pedestrian across the opposition defense hoping for a hole to magically appear. If a gap isn't forthcoming Kroos can just launch a perfect ball over the top.

Watch any Bayern game. His long range passing is second to none, he drops the ball right on the foot of the player he is aiming at, or into their path of a sprint.

When things are slowing down and opposition defences are getting tight, Robben or Ribery will make a run from wide and he just finds them, catches everyone by surprise.

Go watch Bayern vs Dortmund tomorrow for anyone in doubt. I might not catch the game due to other commitments, but I'd be shocked if anyone comes away thinking he is over rated.

bangkok

said it a few months ago and a done deal now, luis Enrique next barca manager

TheDoc

glued wrote: »

What are you talking about? You're putting words in my mouth now. I never said Bayern Munich were rubbish when Kroos was in the team; I said that they were better when he was out of the side injured and they most certainly were a better side. My reference to that point was because people often have suggested in the past that Kroos was a part of that side that destroyed Barcelona; He wasn't. When Bayern Munich were at their best last season Kroos was out injured. If you had bothered to read my post you would of noticed that or perhaps I'm being naive in expecting that much from you.

You were implying that the side was operating better with his absence. I don't see how you can think I interpreted it in any other way. I'm pointing out it's really not anything worth mentioning. If he was not injured and in the side, they would have been better again.

There is no link between their increased performance levels and his ommision via injury. You seemed to bring it up, as if there was an exclusive trade off.

Again that's a pretty preposterous remark to make. I never for one second suggested that he was a bad player; I merely noted the point that he was overrated. Two quite different things altogether. He deserves his place in the national team...

I'm not saying you did. I'm pointing out that he has broken into the national side as a regular. Operating at no10 or deep lieing, or rotating between the two.

Considering those positions consist of Schweinsteiger, Khedira, Bender, Lahm to a point, Muller, Ozil and Gotze, I don't think it's far fetched to say being a starter from that collection, is hardly what you would call an over rated player.

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

said it a few months ago and a done deal now, luis Enrique next barca manager

Gratz Indy

hufpc8w3adnk65

Haven't been online since Wednesday night in here. What have I missed can anyone sum up last 2 days in here please

homerjay2005

MrMac84 wrote: »

Haven't been online since Wednesday night in here. What have I missed can anyone sum up last 2 days in here please

you missed absolutely f*ck all! we had fantasy line ups, non existent news on Van Gaal, usual weekly discussion about Woodward and Park retiring as well as the usual links to the same 5 or 6 players (Shaw/Hummels/Kroos/Muller/Reus)

nothing has happened of note.