DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

Ososlo

Joleigh wrote: »

Ososlo - I got my new bottle holder from wiggle! Love the look of it! Cant wait to try it out. Also got a lovely top.

the actual bottle that comes with it isn't great but pop in any 500ml bottle and it fits perfectly. Try it out on a run before Saturday if you plan on bringing it with you for the race.
best of luck Saturday!

Ososlo

SWL wrote: »

Hi Ososlo,

No problem with the questions, thanks for taking an interest, I used to do a threshold run the day before my LSR to run on tired legs, worked fine until I hit 15/16, I don't use gels etc during training so fuelling and hydration could be an issue.

Another weekend in work with an emergency so its looking doubtful for this year, very very disappointed not to be running especially as most of my mates are running and training is going perfectly for them. I am in the running shape of my life, missed the last three years of Dublin and was determined to give it a go before other life responsibilities get in the way, so a little annoyed i didn't mentally get stuck into the LSR, will keep them very high over the winter so I don't make the same mistake again.

You could always look at a spring marathon if you feel you'd be better prepared. You just can't really skimp on the lsrs. They really are the bread and butter of your training. Try the odd one with just an easy run the day before and fuel yourself well and you'll probably see a world of difference.
Keep us posted!

Mimojo

Username|Current PB|Target Time|Bib|Actual Time
Adrian522| 02:02:23|01:45:00|3268
Casey78|02:04:46|01:59:59|2866
Wubble Wubble| 01:37:07|01:37:06|
Killian Byrne|1:53:xx| 01:49:59|1706
hillsiderunner|01:54:45|01:49:59
annapr|02:19:34|02:05:00|782
Frash|02:09:41| 02:05:00
MLC_biker|02:18:31|02:10:00|3868
Nicsx |01:59:04|01:59:03|7467
aquinn|1:49:53|1:45:00|134
scheister|01:50:xx|01:45:00|
neilthefuneone|2:01:23|01:55:00
ChadHogan|1:46:17|01:44:59
Dub13 (Paul Larkin)|1:46:26|01:44:59|1185
Joleigh |2:02:54|01:59:59|
Mimojo |2:14:00|02:06:00|


Have literally no idea what to aim for as first HM. 5 Mile time was 00:43:17 & FD 10 Mile was 01:32:13. I was very conservative in the 5 Mile as had never done any race before so feel like that could have been faster, but dont think I could have been much faster in the 10 Mile. So based on those thinking maybe 02:06 to 02:10? I would absolutely love to aim for 1:59:59 but think its just too much, would end up half killing myself!! Just though it would be good to go with the 2 hr pacers as would get an idea of what it was like for DCM, but just think it might be a bit too fast? I have put in 2:14 as did a 21km lsr back in July & that was the time, it would be slower again during some of the more recent lsrs.

Ososlo

Mimojo wrote: »

Have literally no idea what to aim for as first HM. 5 Mile time was 00:43:17 & FD 10 Mile was 01:32:13. I was very conservative in the 5 Mile as had never done any race before so feel like that could have been faster, but dont think I could have been much faster in the 10 Mile. So based on those thinking maybe 02:06 to 02:10? I would absolutely love to aim for 1:59:59 but think its just too much, would end up half killing myself!! Just though it would be good to go with the 2 hr pacers as would get an idea of what it was like for DCM, but just think it might be a bit too fast?

McMillan would give you just under 2:03 and I'd say you'd be capable of that. 2 hours might be a bit of a stretch alright. No harm in "half killing yourself" but best not to do that until near the end:D
I'm not sure what to tell you as I know what you mean about wanting to go out with the pacers for the experience but I really don't know if it'd be sensible. One or two minutes too quick at the start can mean the difference between having a great race and blowing up big time and suffering badly near the end. Maybe best to go out at your own 2:03 pace and pick it up later in the race and you never know...

Mimojo

Ososlo wrote: »

McMillan would give you just under 2:03 and I'd say you'd be capable of that. 2 hours might be a bit of a stretch alright. No harm in "half killing yourself" but best not to do that until near the end:D
I'm not sure what to tell you as I know what you mean about wanting to go out with the pacers for the experience but I really don't know if it'd be sensible. One or two minutes too quick at the start can mean the difference between having a great race and blowing up big time and suffering badly near the end. Maybe best to go out at your own 2:03 pace and pick it up later in the race and you never know...

Cheers for the super advice (as always!) Ososlo, I know its only a few minutes, but like you said could make all the difference. It would be nice to go out with the pacers for the experience, but think I am best to stick to my own pacing plan, and if I have much left in the tank towards the end will up the pace for the end!! Defo dont want to be "half killed"!! Will report back after Saturday with how the plan went!

Belgo

Hi everyone, having lurked around this thread for a few days, I thought it was time to post as I have a question which I hope somebody more educated than I will be able to answer!

The DCM 2014 will be my first marathon and I've been wondering a lot about my marathon goal pace. Starting from a reasonable fitness base in mid-July, I thought a time of 3:45 would be a decent target. Having read around a lot in recent days, I'm increasingly aware I've made a considerable rookie error in my training, as I only now understand the long run is designed to be run well below marathon race pace!!!

All of my long runs until now have been run at my intended marathon pace, and as I became increasingly confident, I gradually picked up the pace to the stage where in my last long run, I was able to run 19 miles at a pretty steady 8min/mile pace, and am now hoping (fingers crossed!)for a 3:30 marathon.

Having stupidly ran my long runs at my intended marathon pace, should I now slow down for my last few long runs, or given I've become more comfortable at running 8minute miles, should I be readjusting my marathon goal pace again? My 5k race time suggests I have the potential to run 3:22, but I feel that would be a bit too optimistic... Any advice that anyone can offer would be appreciated, and I very much hope your training programmes are all going to plan!

Thanks!!

AuldManKing

Belgo wrote: »

Hi everyone, having lurked around this thread for a few days, I thought it was time to post as I have a question which I hope somebody more educated than I will be able to answer!

The DCM 2014 will be my first marathon and I've been wondering a lot about my marathon goal pace. Starting from a reasonable fitness base in mid-July, I thought a time of 3:45 would be a decent target. Having read around a lot in recent days, I'm increasingly aware I've made a considerable rookie error in my training, as I only now understand the long run is designed to be run well below marathon race pace!!!

All of my long runs until now have been run at my intended marathon pace, and as I became increasingly confident, I gradually picked up the pace to the stage where in my last long run, I was able to run 19 miles at a pretty steady 8min/mile pace, and am now hoping (fingers crossed!)for a 3:30 marathon.

Having stupidly ran my long runs at my intended marathon pace, should I now slow down for my last few long runs, or given I've become more comfortable at running 8minute miles, should I be readjusting my marathon goal pace again? My 5k race time suggests I have the potential to run 3:22, but I feel that would be a bit too optimistic... Any advice that anyone can offer would be appreciated, and I very much hope your training programmes are all going to plan!

Thanks!!

After running 19 miles at your projected marathon pace, how were you feeling?
What was your weekly training in the days before and after the 19 miles?

have you done any races recently (higher than 5k).

Belgo

AuldManKing wrote: »

After running 19 miles at your projected marathon pace, how were you feeling?
What was your weekly training in the days before and after the 19 miles?

have you done any races recently (higher than 5k).

After the 19 miles, I was definitely tiring but I felt I had at least a couple more miles in me at that pace. If you'd have said to me a month ago that I could run 19 8 min miles, I would have laughed at you - that's why I'm wondering whether I should reassess again or whether I'm getting wildly optimistic.

My 19 mile run was last Saturday, and the other runs I did last week were a 10 mile (again at 8 min miles), two 7 mile tempo runs, and a football match. Since Saturday, I've had another football match, another 7 mile tempo and another 11 mile planned tonight.

The 5k race was in my second week of marathon training back in July and I haven't done any further races since - I was hoping to run a half marathon this month, but work and family got in the way unfortunately!

dukeraoul

Belgo wrote: »

After the 19 miles, I was definitely tiring but I felt I had at least a couple more miles in me at that pace. If you'd have said to me a month ago that I could run 19 8 min miles, I would have laughed at you - that's why I'm wondering whether I should reassess again or whether I'm getting wildly optimistic.

My 19 mile run was last Saturday, and the other runs I did last week were a 10 mile (again at 8 min miles), two 7 mile tempo runs, and a football match. Since Saturday, I've had another football match, another 7 mile tempo and another 11 mile planned tonight.

The 5k race was in my second week of marathon training back in July and I haven't done any further races since - I was hoping to run a half marathon this month, but work and family got in the way unfortunately!

Pretty sweet. Definitely adjust the target downwards. That's a pretty epic workout though not really recommend but provided you survived it intact I'd see it as a great indicator of strength.

If I were you I'd run pretty easy over the next few days and definitely don't repeat the 19 mile at MP workout. Next LSR I'd go very slow to build up time on your feet and maybe do a couple more (shorter) PMP workouts before DCM...

Good luck!

Belgo

dukeraoul wrote: »

Pretty sweet. Definitely adjust the target downwards. That's a pretty epic workout though not on did really recommend but provided you survived it intact I'd see it as a great indicator of strength.

If I were you I'd run pretty easy over the next few days and definitely don't repeat the 19 mile at MP workout. Next LSR I'd go very slow to build up time on your feet and maybe do a couple more (shorter) PMP workouts before DCM...

Good luck!

Cheers! I have 3 more LSRs planned and I definitely think I'll do them a bit slower than the last 8 min mile effort... I will for sure do a few shorter runs at PMP though.

To be honest, I'd be thrilled to just break 3:30, but I'm naturally curious to know how much lower I can go! As a novice, it just seems counter-intuitive to me to be running your longest runs slower than your PMP, as I'm afraid on the day I won't be able to run the PMP unless I've had experience of what it's really like. But I trust that all the experts aren't wrong!

Kop On

In the context of novices completing the Marathon in 6 weeks’ time, what is to be gained by setting a PB at the half marathon on Saturday?

I had considered skipping the half and just continuing with my own schedule and do 17 miles this weekend of a LSR. I felt this would stand to me more as it would be another milestone (longest run) and an opportunity to work on a pacing strategy. Until I discovered this thread 2/3 weeks ago, I never realised how important knowing exactly what your Marathon place should be, so it’s something I’m desperately trying to work out and get comfortable with.

Having thought about it, I can see lots of benefits from doing this organised race rather than my own LSR though, such as:

• Seeing what pacers look like and experiencing what it is like running with them. Sounds a bit odd but all I know is they have some sort of balloon tied to them?!
• Practice on negotiating the water stations in a packed environment (Walk/Run through them. Currently bring my own water on LSR, would prefer not to for Marathon)
• Similar to the water station, see how I feel about using the Lucozade sport at Mile 7, best to try it now rather than on the big day.

Some of the above probably sound trivial but I’m trying to replicate the big day as much as possible. With that in mind, I’m thinking rather than aiming for a PB, would it not be best to practice running at the planned marathon pace for the duration of this race on Saturday? Would that not give a far better idea of how realistic and achievable the planned pace is?

dukeraoul

Belgo wrote: »

Cheers! I have 3 more LSRs planned and I definitely think I'll do them a bit slower than the last 8 min mile effort... I will for sure do a few shorter runs at PMP though.

To be honest, I'd be thrilled to just break 3:30, but I'm naturally curious to know how much lower I can go! As a novice, it just seems counter-intuitive to me to be running your longest runs slower than your PMP, as I'm afraid on the day I won't be able to run the PMP unless I've had experience of what it's really like. But I trust that all the experts aren't wrong!

I know it seems counter intuitive to run LSR's slower than PMP but trust me its important. The last 7-8 miles of a marathon are pretty ridiculous and if you don't have the time on feet you need to train your body to use glycogen efficiently and burn fat for energy- you'll hit the wall and it really ain't pretty.

Really the biggest PMP workout you wanna do is 15 or 16 and you really need to make sure you recover well after it.

Hsve a go in the next while at trying out PMP for 3:30 and see what that feels like over pretty short distances like 3-6 miles. If it feels fairly comfortable maybe try to hit one 11-15 PMP workout before DCM.

Ososlo

Kop On wrote: »

In the context of novices completing the Marathon in 6 weeks’ time, what is to be gained by setting a PB at the half marathon on Saturday?

I had considered skipping the half and just continuing with my own schedule and do 17 miles this weekend of a LSR. I felt this would stand to me more as it would be another milestone (longest run) and an opportunity to work on a pacing strategy. Until I discovered this thread 2/3 weeks ago, I never realised how important knowing exactly what your Marathon place should be, so it’s something I’m desperately trying to work out and get comfortable with.

Having thought about it, I can see lots of benefits from doing this organised race rather than my own LSR though, such as:

• Seeing what pacers look like and experiencing what it is like running with them. Sounds a bit odd but all I know is they have some sort of balloon tied to them?!
• Practice on negotiating the water stations in a packed environment (Walk/Run through them. Currently bring my own water on LSR, would prefer not to for Marathon)
• Similar to the water station, see how I feel about using the Lucozade sport at Mile 7, best to try it now rather than on the big day.

Some of the above probably sound trivial but I’m trying to replicate the big day as much as possible. With that in mind, I’m thinking rather than aiming for a PB, would it not be best to practice running at the planned marathon pace for the duration of this race on Saturday? Would that not give a far better idea of how realistic and achievable the planned pace is?

Hi Kop On, this very discussion arose last week. If you have a look at the posts from 3122 onwards you'll find some really good points made.
In my opinion, running 13.1 miles at mp tells you very little about running a full marathon at that pace. I think you'd be better off racing it as a half marathon and then you can nail down a goal marathon time for the 27th. Imo for a novice it's a more realistic indicator of what you might be capable of than running the half at mp and wondering if you could do double that again.
Your points are not trivial at all. It's very important to replicate in a race setting before DCM what you'll do on the big day.

adrian522

Kop On wrote: »

In the context of novices completing the Marathon in 6 weeks’ time, what is to be gained by setting a PB at the half marathon on Saturday?

Surely setting a PB in the half marathon is enough gain in itself?

Kop On

adrian522 wrote: »

Surely setting a PB in the half marathon is enough gain in itself?

Why though, how does that PB benefit you in any way for the DCM? If anything I can see it being slightly counter-productive, whereby someone runs the half this weekend in 1:50 for example, then on the big day they cross the Half Marathon mark at 2:05 and psychologically you’re “15 mins slower” than a few weeks ago at the same point. Does that make sense?

I know you’re not actually slower because it’s a different race but that’s what I’m struggling with, all the training has been for the DCM, so this weekend for me, should still be about that, including pace, pre race prep (sleep, food etc) and intake of foods and liquids during the race . I’m not saying I’m right by the way, I’m just trying to get my head around it.

Ososlo wrote: »

Hi Kop On, this very discussion arose last week. If you have a look at the posts from 3122 onwards you'll find some really good points made.
In my opinion, running 13.1 miles at mp tells you very little about running a full marathon at that pace. I think you'd be better off racing it as a half marathon and then you can nail down a goal marathon time for the 27th. Imo for a novice it's a more realistic indicator of what you might be capable of than running the half at mp and wondering if you could do double that again.
Your points are not trivial at all. It's very important to replicate in a race setting before DCM what you'll do on the big day.

Thanks, I had read those posts last week with interest, however I don’t think there was any definitive answer to it. Some favoured racing the HM in Athlone or Dublin while others felt it should be used as an extension of the LSR. The part in your post in bold there, could you explain that?

Belgo wrote: »

As a novice, it just seems counter-intuitive to me to be running your longest runs slower than your PMP, as I'm afraid on the day I won't be able to run the PMP unless I've had experience of what it's really like.

This post from Belgo (posted at the same time almost as mine) sums up pretty much what I'm trying to get at, I suppose.

adrian522

Well I guess it depends on what your motivation is for running in the first place.

By your rational above you would not run any races shorter than the marathon in case you are going slower than that pace at that stage of the marathon.

For me it is a huge psychological boost to know that the training is paying off and you are running the half faster than you ever have before. There is also a huge mental boost with knowing you can cover 13.1 miles at whatever pace and knowing that in the marathon you will be running at a slower pace so it should be easier again.

There is also a very good fitness boost that you will get from racing that will be very difficult to replicate in training.

But mainly the reason I want a PB is "I want a PB".

ecoli

@Kop ON

Its actually a good question and one which there is no one size fits all answer. In terms of benefits of racing the half some of the benefits can be

- Confidence boost
- A quantifiable reward to the hard work you have put in to date
- Great aerobic workout (need to take the recovery into account though)
- Way of breaking up the plan
- Mental training of working hard when you are hurting
- Race day practice (adrenaline, fueling etc)

In terms of from a strictly physiological standpoint yes focusing on the race day as a single focus is probably more ideal but with all the other variables sometimes the race is the right answer depending on the person.

This is something that was debated recently from a few of the more seasoned runners on the forum (ill see if I can drag out the link)

Ososlo

[QUOTE=Kop On;92236763

Thanks, I had read those posts last week with interest, however I don’t think there was any definitive answer to it. Some favoured racing the HM in Athlone or Dublin while others felt it should be used as an extension of the LSR. The part in your post in bold there, could you explain that?
[/QUOTE]


IMO, the time you do in the half marathon is a much better indicator for choosing a goal time for the full than just running 13.1 miles at marathon pace in the half. Running it at mp is a great workout but I think racing it as a half will serve you better for working out a goal time for DCM.

There is no definitive answer:) It's a personal choice at the end of the day, just look at all the different opinions/comments and do what you feel is best for you!

Joleigh

For me, racing the HM will give me a boost. I would hate to cross the finish line after running at mp, wondering what time I would have got if I'd pushed myself. Also, racing a half marathon and pushing yourself means the last few miles will no doubt be a struggle and the usual thoughts will cross your mind, ie: can I finish this, maybe I will walk for a minute, why did I enter this race, I am never running again, how many miles are left?, why am I struggling, does everyone feel as bad as me right now...etc. All of these questions cross my mind towards the end of any race when I push myself, and its all good practice for the last few miles of the marathon when your mental demons start thwarting you. As soon as I cross the finish line all those negative thoughts are gone and the natural high kicks in. I don't think training runs have the same effect as any race, in preparation for a bigger race.

So basically, the race isn't just about the pace. You can run 13.1 miles at MP any time in training. Its about everything else you experience from a race, and how to cope when you're struggling.

I remember in my one and only marathon, towards the end I was praying to God and promising I would go to Mass every Sunday if he would just let this race be over!!

Ososlo

Joleigh wrote: »

I remember in my one and only marathon, towards the end I was praying to God and promising I would go to Mass every Sunday if he would just let this race be over!!

and are you still going to mass every Sunday Joleigh?:D

Joleigh

Ososlo wrote: »

and are you still going to mass every Sunday Joleigh?:D

I cant, I have to do my LSR but its ok. God understands.

Kop On

ecoli wrote: »

Its actually a good question and one which there is no one size fits all answer. In terms of benefits of racing the half some of the benefits can be

- Confidence boost
- A quantifiable reward to the hard work you have put in to date
- Great aerobic workout (need to take the recovery into account though)
- Way of breaking up the plan
- Mental training of working hard when you are hurting
- Race day practice (adrenaline, fueling etc)

In terms of from a strictly physiological standpoint yes focusing on the race day as a single focus is probably more ideal but with all the other variables sometimes the race is the right answer depending on the person.

This is something that was debated recently from a few of the more seasoned runners on the forum (ill see if I can drag out the link)

Thanks, that all makes sense and I suppose you’re right there is no one size fits all. The debate you’re referring to I think is the same one that Ososlo mentioned earlier, it was in relation to the Athlone HM from last week. I did read that but there were good cases for and against racing it.

Ososlo wrote: »

There is no definitive answer:) It's a personal choice at the end of the day, just look at all the different opinions/comments and do what you feel is best for you!

Cheers – I’ll do that, still a few days to go before I have to decide either way. Thanks.

ecoli

Kop On wrote: »

Thanks, that all makes sense and I suppose you’re right there is no one size fits all. The debate you’re referring to I think is the same one that Ososlo mentioned earlier, it was in relation to the Athlone HM from last week. I did read that but there were good cases for and against racing it.

Actually different one from the Spring, found link here some pretty good info regarding racing in general in build up to race

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88857784

(Bit of trolling in the start that can be ignored)

Belgo

dukeraoul wrote: »

I know it seems counter intuitive to run LSR's slower than PMP but trust me its important. The last 7-8 miles of a marathon are pretty ridiculous and if you don't have the time on feet you need to train your body to use glycogen efficiently and burn fat for energy- you'll hit the wall and it really ain't pretty.

Really the biggest PMP workout you wanna do is 15 or 16 and you really need to make sure you recover well after it.

Hsve a go in the next while at trying out PMP for 3:30 and see what that feels like over pretty short distances like 3-6 miles. If it feels fairly comfortable maybe try to hit one 11-15 PMP workout before DCM.

Will bear all of this in mind over the coming weeks, last thing I want to do is literally crawl over the line on race day - thanks for the advice!!

SeanPuddin

Okay racing a HM on Oct 5th, 3 weeks out from the marathon. Now I'm starting to think this could be a bad idea??

dukeraoul

SeanPuddin wrote: »

Okay racing a HM on Oct 5th, 3 weeks out from the marathon. Now I'm starting to think this could be a bad idea??

Yeah. I wouldn't do that- just too close not enough time to properly recover...

SeanPuddin

dukeraoul wrote: »

Yeah. I wouldn't do that- just too close not enough time to properly recover...

Cool that's that then. The race has a 30K option, so as a few others have said already, I'll do 20K LSR pace and last 10K at marathon pace.

Thanks for swinging it for me.

dukeraoul

SeanPuddin wrote: »

Cool that's that then. The race has a 30K option, so as a few others have said already, I'll do 20K LSR pace and last 10K at marathon pace.

Thanks for swinging it for me.

Hahaha - not trying to be a tool here but honestly even 30k w/ 10k @MP sounds a bit heavy for 3 weeks out... Maybe some of the other experienced posters could chime in here though as may be ok? Any option in the race to race a 10k? That could be beneficial.

SeanPuddin

dukeraoul wrote: »

Hahaha - not trying to be a tool here but honestly even 30k w/ 10k @MP sounds a bit heavy for 3 weeks out... Maybe some of the other experienced posters could chime in here though as may be ok? Any option in the race to race a 10k? That could be beneficial.

There's a 18 mile LSR in the plan for that day so I thought it wouldn't be a bad replacement to do 5 or 6 of those miles at MP. I'm pretty sure I'm able for it and can't see recovery time being a factor as 18 miles is still hefty enough. I wanted to do the HM to get a monkey off my back but realise now it's way too close to be messing around.

I'm going to stick with 20K LSR and 10K MP (for now). For me I think it'll give just as much of a confidence boost as a good HM time. Especially as a last run before tapering.

If anyone thinks I should do differently please tell me as now I haven't a feckin clue

dukeraoul

SeanPuddin wrote: »

There's a 18 mile LSR in the plan for that day so I thought it wouldn't be a bad replacement to do 5 or 6 of those miles at MP. I'm pretty sure I'm able for it and can't see recovery time being a factor as 18 miles is still hefty enough. I wanted to do the HM to get a monkey off my back but realise now it's way too close to be messing around.

I'm going to stick with 20K LSR and 10K MP (for now). For me I think it'll give just as much of a confidence boost as a good HM time. Especially as a last run before tapering.

If anyone thinks I should do differently please tell me as now I haven't a feckin clue

Cool. If your plan says 18 doing the 30k should be no harm... Sounds sensible enough what you're doing.