DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

Ososlo

Mimojo wrote: »

Hi MLC, I think there is a lot to be said for going with a slower pace group & enjoying the experience. It has been mentioned here so many time about enjoying your first marathon, plenty of time to run a faster one! What worries me is the fear of the unknown, ie those last 6 miles, which I can only imagine are going to be hellish!! Even if the first 20 miles are ok going with faster pace group, those last miles will be the real challenge, so might be as well go a slower group & have something left to get through the end! I have to say I am very nervous...but very excited about the prospect of DCM - thinking about actually crossing the finish lines makes me want to cry (with joy!!)

The last six miles don't have to be hellish. It's not that way for everyone. I enjoyed the last six the most as I was running so easy up to that point I had plenty left in the tank and felt great.
If you're racing hard for a specific time that's a tad aggressive it might be hellish alright. Go out nice and gently and you can have a great enjoyable day and race the next marathon you do

Laois_Man

Firedance wrote: »

Am I missing anything?

Nutrition

Good document attached.

Edit: I am posting this while gobbling up half a pack of Fruit Pastilles

adrian522

RedRunner wrote: »

Hi Dub13,

Everybody is different but this might be a useful reference since I think you and I are very similar in terms of times.

In April I did a 3:52 marathon. This was off a 1:39:50 HM 6 weeks earlier and a fairly uninterrupted training schedule (for a change!) with just one week of 17 missed due to illness. My 10k PB at that time was 46:42 (prev Nov).

In the marathon I had a few issues with cramping and fatigued badly in last 7k but otherwise was well on course for sub 3:45. If everything goes well for you on the day I reckon 3:50 is definitely on for you but i would put any thoughts of 3:36 right out of your head now. The marathon in April was my third marathon in four years. My current times suggest sub 3:30 on calculators but I would have been aiming for sub 3:40 in Dublin if I was running it.

This is not Gospel or anything but since your training is so similar and times, (we even have same address code!) I thought you might find it useful information.

Hi RR, thanks for your input, it is very interesting. What sort of mileage would you have been doing when training for the marathon in April?

laura_ac3

Some of the posts this afternoon summed up exactly my nerves and excitement about it all!! The calculators have me around 4.37/4.40 based on my half of 2.13. Which was consistent with my other races this summer across varying distances.

Reading Ososlo's post about what to add on I feel like I fall between the stools. I've been running and doing races for 2 years with 4 half marathons now done. But after an interrupted winter of training due to niggles I don't feel that the step up in mileage this spring and summer was as natural a progression as it could have been had I not gotten injured just before Christmas.

So based on that and the fact I'd like to hover near a pace group I think I'll go somewhere near the 5 hour ones. I think 4.50 might be tight and too unrealistic. For my first one I think I'd like to enjoy it as much as possible. I'd prefer to come away with that and a slight regret about not going a bit faster than to have a horrific experience and still not have a brilliant time. The last 6 miles are and the whole thing I suppose are an unknown. So hopefully there'll be more in the future which can be improved with the value of this experience.

Any thoughts on whether I'm right in thinking 4.50 is too unrealistic?

yaboya1

laura_ac3 wrote: »

So based on that and the fact I'd like to hover near a pace group I think I'll go somewhere near the 5 hour ones.

If you do that, you'll have annapr's personal pacer (Murph_D) to pull you around

Ososlo

laura_ac3 wrote: »

Some of the posts this afternoon summed up exactly my nerves and excitement about it all!! The calculators have me around 4.37/4.40 based on my half of 2.13. Which was consistent with my other races this summer across varying distances.

Reading Ososlo's post about what to add on I feel like I fall between the stools. I've been running and doing races for 2 years with 4 half marathons now done. But after an interrupted winter of training due to niggles I don't feel that the step up in mileage this spring and summer was as natural a progression as it could have been had I not gotten injured just before Christmas.

So based on that and the fact I'd like to hover near a pace group I think I'll go somewhere near the 5 hour ones. I think 4.50 might be tight and too unrealistic. For my first one I think I'd like to enjoy it as much as possible. I'd prefer to come away with that and a slight regret about not going a bit faster than to have a horrific experience and still not have a brilliant time. The last 6 miles are and the whole thing I suppose are an unknown. So hopefully there'll be more in the future which can be improved with the value of this experience.

Any thoughts on whether I'm right in thinking 4.50 is too unrealistic?

To be honest with you, I think you're well capable of 4:50 from reading about your training and general attitude since you started posting here. However, I can see what you're saying. You can play it really safe and go with 5hrs and I know you'll have a wonderful experience and you could push on at 18 or 20 if feeling good (which I know you will;)). Plenty of time to decide.

Ososlo

crisco10 wrote: »

OK....so back on this thread after a torrid 5 weeks. Long story short, missed most of August and early September with a hamstring strain.

I don't think I'm in too bad shape but maybe I'm delusional. The last week in July, I did a 19 miler lsr; did rock'n'roll half in August in 90mins. It all went downhill then. Got a couple of 10 mile LSRs in in August...That was basically it until lat week where I got another 10 miler in followed by a 16 mile LSR yesterday (feel fine today).

Each of these weeks, my other mileage roughly matched the lsr. (no speedwork though) But there have been a few zero (or close to) weeks in there. My plan was to get in 2 or 3 more 18-20 miles lsr. Then have a 2 or 3 week taper. Is that enough? (taper and long runs...)

at this stage, I'm forgetting about target times and just thinking about finishing in a "decent" time.....Are the odds likely that I'm in for a painful race if I go?

How's the injury now? Completely gone? I wouldn't concern myself about speed work at all from here on if I were you.
If you recover well from the 16, then you could do 18 at the weekend but do try to get in a few short easy runs on other days too (recovery effort).
If your injury is not an issue any more and you get in a few decent weeks and do at least 2 x 18 runs and a few decent-ish medium long runs over the next few weeks and you're going out to just enjoy the day and not race a time then I think you'll be fine.
The boards plan has the following lsrs between now and the big one:
20, 18, 14, 8
Medium long runs are
8, 7, 5, 4
If you can do something similar (without any pain) and fit in a few easy days around that (really really easy effort) I think you'd be ok.
But obviously if things start hurting you gotta review it again.

Ososlo

Mimojo wrote: »

Cheers Ososlo for the very informative post of calculating target marathon time, brilliant as always, think you deserve a medal at this stage for all the invaluable advice, support & encouragement given in this thread, super super stuff.

Looking at my time from the Half, 2:09:30, I have put this into the various calculators and coming out with a predicted time around 4:30. I feel like the half didnt go that well for me & I might have done it a little bit faster, so I am hoping to aim to go with the 4:30 pacers on the day, I hope that this is achievable.

My longest run so far is 20 Miles and that took me 3hr 40 (Pace of 11) so if I had done another 6 miles would have added about another 66 minutes to that time, so would have ended in 4hr 46min. I know that this is all hypothetical, but just trying to evaluate what I am able for!

Hoping on the day would be a little bit quicker, so hoping that 4hr 30 is achievable & relatively comfortable. I dont want to go out too fast (like in the other races) so think that following the pace group will help me.

I read in a post above that the race "only starts at 20 miles"....this sentence really scares me!!!

This is my first marathon & I am only properly running a few months so all I want to do is finish the marathon in one piece & enjoy the experience. I dont want to set myself an unrealistic goal so any advice is appreciated!

Also I am away next weekend so planning on swopping the 20 mile and 13 miles around, so planning a 20 mile this Sat, and 13 the following weekend. I did the half at the weekend so think I should be ok for 20 on Saturday. I am wondering if it possible to do a final 20 mile on Saturday 11th Oct or is this too close to the race? Plan was to do last lsr then so would have 1 x 18.5 & 3 x 20 under my belt, and taper from there. I missed an lsr a few weeks ago with injury which was a pity but couldnt be helped.

I think that 20 would be a bit too much too close to the race. I wouldn't do more than 14/15 that week. You'll have 2 x 20 done which I think is plenty and you have the 18.5 and I'm sure plenty of other slightly shorter runs close to that distance too.
As you're not running very long I'd be looking more at 4:40. I'm not saying you wouldn't be capable of 4:30 but I'd worry it might be a tiny bit of stretch off your half time and the fact that you're new to running. Maybe around 4:35 but I know you wanted to run with the pacers.
Just my opinion btw! Ignore if you wish!
ps thanks for your lovely comments

Ososlo

Mimojo wrote: »

No moisture left for tears, holy moly!!! Ya I keep telling myself “shur it cant be that bad”, but I am pretty sure it really is that bad, and more! But then again look at all the people who successfully completely a marathon, if they can do it we can do it too! Plus all the training for the past few months will stand to us, again stuff I keep telling myself when the doubts creep in!

Great advice, I am going to start hydrating from today so, I should all set for the 27th! Slow and steady seems to be the way to go, I am eager to stick with the pacer group as my last 2 races I took off like a mad yolk and paid the price at the end. I doubt I will be able to push as much as a feather in the final miles, I just hope to shuffle along! I hope I can remember all of this on race day, I can image the excitement and nerves when the day does roll around, it will be hard to stay focused and remember all of the bits of advice within this thread, think I might have to write it all down and recite it as I go around!

Great to hear that Ososlo will be waiting with stretchers for us all lol!! If she could also have a stiff drink ready for me that would be super! :D:D

stiff drinks and stretchers are all part of the service:D Get your orders in now folks!

Pacing Mule

Ososlo wrote: »

stiff drinks and stretchers are all part of the service:D Get your orders in now folks!

Stick me down for a stiff one and a stretch.

SoundoftheSea

I will be the last one home by all the calculations. Clontarf half 2:29 but I was carrying the number of the beast lol.
So if you don't mind waiting around Ososlo I will have a B&C whenever your finished serving Mr PM

Mimojo

Ososlo wrote: »

I think that 20 would be a bit too much too close to the race. I wouldn't do more than 14/15 that week. You'll have 2 x 20 done which I think is plenty and you have the 18.5 and I'm sure plenty of other slightly shorter runs close to that distance too.
As you're not running very long I'd be looking more at 4:40. I'm not saying you wouldn't be capable of 4:30 but I'd worry it might be a tiny bit of stretch off your half time and the fact that you're new to running. Maybe around 4:35 but I know you wanted to run with the pacers.
Just my opinion btw! Ignore if you wish!
ps thanks for your lovely comments

Ososlo wrote: »

stiff drinks and stretchers are all part of the service:D Get your orders in now folks!

Cheers Ososlo, I think you are spot on, 4:40 would be much more comfortable & as I am really lacking experience I think it will make for a much better and achievable DCM, and if there is anything at all left in the tank towards the end I could try & push on!

I dont have to go with the pacers, just feel that it would help me as my pacing so far has really been all over the shop. I think I will try to start off with them anyhow & see how I get on.

I really ment what I said, the information within this thread is absolutely brilliant, its such a great resource & all the encouragement is brill too!

Cheers for the stiff drink & stretcher offer by the way, think mine will be a double!! Although in all fairness think we should all be buying you a large one for all the help!!

RedRunner

adrian522 wrote: »

Hi RR, thanks for your input, it is very interesting. What sort of mileage would you have been doing when training for the marathon in April?

I've copied this extract from my log which was two weeks out from big day. Didn't get to do as much as I would have liked over last two weeks due to a touch of Plantar Fasciitis but thankfully it cleared in time for the marathon. Did 2 x 50 mile weeks, 1 x 55 and one 7 day period where I did 66miles cos did LR on a Monday.

*************************************************

Weight in January (mid)= 15st 3 lbs
Weight now = 14st 6lbs

Not a huge loss, but a few people have mentioned recently that I look like I've lost a lot of weight. Remember I'm 6'4" and a bit so it's easier to hide it!
My target for DCM was 14st 10lbs so I'm ahead of that one.


No. of runs since plan started on Dec 16th is 92

Total miles run since beginning of plan is 660

Highest mileage month is March with 222

Breakdown of LSRs completed:

14 miles = 5

16 miles = 1

17 miles = 2

18 miles = 3

19 miles = 1

20 miles = 1

22 mile = 2


Missed 1 long run of 14 due to illness

********************************************************
But enough about me ......trust in your training. I'm expecting great things from this group!

adrian522

Thanks, just trying to settle on a target time myself, I was thinking 3:45 or 3:50, my training would be similar to yours but obviously this is my first marathon. I've 4 20 mile runs, with maybe 1 more to go.

I'd like to push myself but not go through hell for the last few miles either. 604 miles so far in the training plan with 5 weeks to go.

hillsiderunner

Hi Laois_Man, that's a good idea. Here is mine - bear in mind that I only started thinking of DCM as a possibility towards the end of July, and only started adding "proper long runs" around mid-August. I've numbered the weeks with numbers (weeks to DCM) and they start on a Monday, with the LSR being done towards the end of that week. In fact ... occasionally the week starts on a Tuesday (and in one case a Wednesday) if the previous week's long run had been delayed. I had been away on a long-distance cycling holiday for "week -18" and I think the endurance from that helped me jump up to 12-mile Long Runs when I arrived back home.

Week|Date|LSR Distance|Distance all Week|% LSR Week Total
-17|June 30|12|21|57%
-16|July 8|10.5|15|70%
-15|July 15|11.5|27|42.5%
-14|July 22|12.5|28|48%
-13|July 29|12|24.5|49%
-12|Aug 4|13.1 (HM)|24.5|53%
-11|Aug 12|15|31|48%
-10|Aug 19|6 (lazy)|12|50%
-9|Aug 25|17|37.5|45%
-8|Sep 1|19|37.5|50%
-7|Sep 10|12 (itb)|17|70%
-6|Sep 15|19.7 (DCHM)|35|56%
-5|Sep 23|21|43|49%
-4|Sep 29|21|43|49%
-3|Oct 6|17|37|46%

Not brilliant mileage, and not enough "proper long runs" but I am improving. Started this week already this evening ... pushed myself out the door for 4x650 intervals with 5.6 comfortable w/u and c/d miles.

RedRunner

adrian522 wrote: »

Thanks, just trying to settle on a target time myself, I was thinking 3:45 or 3:50, my training would be similar to yours but obviously this is my first marathon. I've 4 20 mile runs, with maybe 1 more to go.

I'd like to push myself but not go through hell for the last few miles either. 604 miles so far in the training plan with 5 weeks to go.

You are well set Adrian. Just resist the temptation to do too much over the next week or two.

annapr

frash wrote: »

With a time I've 2:09 I'd have thought you'd be more comfortable with the 4:40 pacers.
I ran a 2:02 on Saturday & I'm leaning more towards the 4:40 than the 4:30 pacers right now but I'll see how this week's 20m LSR goes.

Frash, I did 2:01 on Saturday and calculators predict 4:16 marathon... I am thinking about trying to go with the 4:20 pacers... but maybe that's too ambitious....? i haven't done a 20 miler yet (next week on the HH1 plan) so i might reserve judgment until after that.

annapr

yaboya1 wrote: »

If you do that, you'll have annapr's personal pacer (Murph_D) to pull you around

I can highly recommend his pacing skills :-) and patience!

adrian522

RedRunner wrote: »

You are well set Adrian. Just resist the temptation to do too much over the next week or two.

Cheers. The plan calls for 18 this week and 16 next week, I was thinking of upping those to 20 and 18 , is that what you mean by doing too much?

I was a week early with my last 22 miler as I had the half last week so was thinking one more 20 would be a good idea but maybe it's a bit of overkill.

laura_ac3

Ososlo wrote: »

To be honest with you, I think you're well capable of 4:50 from reading about your training and general attitude since you started posting here. However, I can see what you're saying. You can play it really safe and go with 5hrs and I know you'll have a wonderful experience and you could push on at 18 or 20 if feeling good (which I know you will;)). Plenty of time to decide.

Ok, interesting. Food for thought! Have two more LSRs anyway so will see how they go. And from the sounds of things you might need to have your own stretcher bearers organised to help carry you home after all these large drinks from the group

RedRunner

adrian522 wrote: »

Cheers. The plan calls for 18 this week and 16 next week, I was thinking of upping those to 20 and 18 , is that what you mean by doing too much?

I was a week early with my last 22 miler as I had the half last week so was thinking one more 20 would be a good idea but maybe it's a bit of overkill.

No, I don't think there'd be any problem with that plan. There is always the temptation to try cram more miles in mid week in the lead up to taper so I'd say you are ok with the proposed 20 and 18 so long as it is a vanilla 20 this week, ie just easy as last weekend's race will probably still be in the legs but don't tamper with your plan for the rest of the week.

ciaranmac

Well the LSR on Sunday didn't go to plan, and I was feeling down about it until I read the posts on here and got a whole lot of inspiration and positivity.

I went out the door just after midday and the sun was beating out of the sky, it was 23 degrees and a fabulous clear day. The run didn't work out at all, at the start I just thought I was slow warming up but I never got to the comfortable phase of trotting along that normally kicks in after about a mile. It felt like the first few runs I did back in January when I started back, or like the end of last week's run from 19-21 miles. I decided to cut my losses, went home and did some overdue DIY instead.

In all of this there are good things to learn. I started out feeling like the end of the last LSR and still clocked up 5 miles, so that says to me I can grind out the hard yards at the business end. And that was pretty much how I felt running at all 8 months ago, so it's a measure of how far I've come. Compared to some on this thread I can still count myself lucky. I didn't get sick or injured or anything, so it doesn't interfere with the goal.
I've 271 miles up since the start of June, a 2:24 half marathon PB in August, a 19 and a 21 done this month, and I've this week and Athlone still to come before taper. Maybe a rest wasn't a bad idea as I'd planned to step back this week but the body decided it would go early.

Fingers crossed the next few runs go OK and that there isn't a heat wave on race day!

frash

annapr wrote: »

Frash, I did 2:01 on Saturday and calculators predict 4:16 marathon... I am thinking about trying to go with the 4:20 pacers... but maybe that's too ambitious....? i haven't done a 20 miler yet (next week on the HH1 plan) so i might reserve judgment until after that.

we might meet in the middle at 4:30?

I haven't done a 20 miler yet either (have tried but quit at 18.5).
Have done 1 other 18 miler.

Gonna try to get 2 * 20 in now in the next 2 weekends.

McMillan has me around 4:18 but I can't see that happening to be honest. I've had to skip a few of the mid week runs due to a niggle in my foot. Am also concerned about stamina.

Am still leaning towards 4:40 but it's early days still.

Corrib man

Just entered athlone 3/4 then I looked at course profile! Looks tough, anybody run this before??

yaboya1

Corrib man wrote: »

Just entered athlone 3/4 then I looked at course profile! Looks tough, anybody run this before??

Yes. It's as tough as it looks :O

crisco10

Ososlo wrote: »

How's the injury now? Completely gone? I wouldn't concern myself about speed work at all from here on if I were you.
If you recover well from the 16, then you could do 18 at the weekend but do try to get in a few short easy runs on other days too (recovery effort).
If your injury is not an issue any more and you get in a few decent weeks and do at least 2 x 18 runs and a few decent-ish medium long runs over the next few weeks and you're going out to just enjoy the day and not race a time then I think you'll be fine.
The boards plan has the following lsrs between now and the big one:
20, 18, 14, 8
Medium long runs are
8, 7, 5, 4
If you can do something similar (without any pain) and fit in a few easy days around that (really really easy effort) I think you'd be ok.
But obviously if things start hurting you gotta review it again.

Yeah, the injury is gone. Not a twinge in 2 weeks. Think I should be able to fit in all those runs (injury permitting obviously). Picking a pace that will allow me enjoy the day, but also "do myself justice" might be tricky. After the 1:30 half in August, I had 3:15 in my head...so I'll have to figure out how much to downgrade that by...3:30, 3:40??

Maybe I'll know after the 20 miler!

Darren 83

Signed up for DCM today no going back, Id love to get under 4 hours but will not by any means be a easy task.

Joleigh

All of the calculators seem to be giving me in around 4.08 / 4.11 for my marathon time based on my half time of 1.59.17. considering this is my second marathon I would be hopeful that I can get close to it! I would be over the moon with under 4.15 but I know these calculators are based on keeping an even pace, and it will be very crowded at the start so first mile will be slow. Also it doesn't allow for a pee break in the park! My first marathon was 6 years ago and I was only running 11 months at the time. My time was 4.38 and I hadn't a clue back then (I know it all now ) Either way I will be happy to finish! But to beat my previous time would be brilliant.

Still plenty of training to be done before the taper. 2 big weeks of running ahead for me. Good luck with the lsr's everyone. I'm feeling nervous!

adrian522

Question on the Taper:

currently my plan has around 60 MPW.

So it looks like this from this week:

Sept 22nd 60
Sept 29th 60
October 6th 59
October 13th 52
October 20th 37

does this sound like a bit much particularly for the weeks beginning October 6th and 13th. I would have assumed the mileage would have started to decrease from 3 weeks out but currently it only decreases from 2 weeks out and then only slightly.

What changes if any would you make to the plan?

Ososlo

Darren 83 wrote: »

Signed up for DCM today no going back, Id love to get under 4 hours but will not by any means be a easy task.

I'm not saying it'll be a walk in the park but you should be very confident imo.
You've got the speed and you have a great endurance built up over the last few years.