DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

dcorcaigh

adrian522 wrote: »

Question on the Taper:

currently my plan has around 60 MPW.

So it looks like this from this week:

Sept 22nd 60
Sept 29th 60
October 6th 59
October 13th 52
October 20th 37

does this sound like a bit much particularly for the weeks beginning October 6th and 13th. I would have assumed the mileage would have started to decrease from 3 weeks out but currently it only decreases from 2 weeks out and then only slightly.

What changes if any would you make to the plan?

That does seem a little high.
my planned last 5 weeks are:
52
60
38
24
10+marathon
I am loosely following the P+D 55mile program. the idea of the taper is arrive at the start line fit and rejuvenated after a hard training program.

menoscemo

dcorcaigh wrote: »

That does seem a little high.
my planned last 5 weeks are:
52
60
38
24
10+marathon
I am loosely following the P+D 55mile program. the idea of the taper is arrive at the start line fit and rejuvenated after a hard training program.

That taper looks way too light. 10 miles in the week before the marathon is nothing and is more likely to leave you a little stale. I'd advise at least 20 miles but all easy (maybe 4 with 2 at MP midweek).

The General rule of thumb is that the week ending 3 weeks out being your peak week in terms of mileage then the taper mileage should be:
75% of Mileage on week 1 of taper, 55-60% on week 2 and 30-40% (pre marathon Marathon) on week 3.

So for soemone who peaked at 60 miles you are looking at approximately : Wk 1: 45 miles, Wk 2: 30-35 miles, wk 3: 20-25 miles

adrian522

menoscemo wrote: »

That taper looks way too light. 10 miles in the week before the marathon is nothing and is more likely to leave you a little stale. I'd advise at least 20 miles but all easy (maybe 4 with 2 at MP midweek).

The General rule of thumb is that the week ending 3 weeks out being your peak week in terms of mileage them the taper mileage should be:
75% of Mileage on week 1 of taper, 55-60% on week 2 and 30-40% (pre marathon Marathon) on week 3.

So for soemone who peaked at 60 miles you are looking at approximately : Wk 1: 45 miles, Wk 2: 30-35 miles, wk 3: 20-25 miles

Thanks, I had a 70 Mile week as my highest mileage week, the week before the half (week ending September 14th)

So should I go with something like 52/42/28 for the 3 taper weeks?

menoscemo

adrian522 wrote: »

Thanks, I had a 70 Mile week as my highest mileage week, the week before the half (week ending September 14th)

So should I go with something like 52/42/28 for the 3 taper weeks?

That looks good, but I would be doing 70 miles the week before taper in that case, so at least you are coming down from peak mileage.

* I know you posted elsewhere about your 20+ milers, I would also be doing or repeating my longest run at the end of that week (irregardless of how many 20+ milers you have already done). Otherwise you are risking having peaked too early. Of course this should also be balanced out by not overdoing it and burning yourself out.

*The above is just my opinion, if you are hapy following your own plan then do so.

adrian522

Thanks, I'll take another look at next week and trying to have that hit peak mileage.

dukeraoul

menoscemo wrote: »

That looks good, but I would be doing 70 miles the week before taper in that case, so at least you are coming down from peak mileage.

* I know you posted elsewhere about your 20+ milers, I would also be doing or repeating my longest run at the end of that week (irregardless of how many 20+ milers you have already done). Otherwise you are risking having peaked too early. Of course this should also be balanced out by not overdoing it and burning yourself out.

*The above is just my opinion, if you are hapy following your own plan then do so.

Kind of agree meno but don't think "peak milage" covers exactly what you're talking about. Example: my plan had me peak in milage around 8 weeks out from the marathon- the milage has dropped by a very small amount but the intensity/ amount of quality miles has gone way up and will likely peak 3-4 weeks out from the race...

I think a few book plans do something similar...

Darren 83

Ososlo wrote: »

I'm not saying it'll be a walk in the park but you should be very confident imo.
You've got the speed and you have a great endurance built up over the last few years.

Thanks Ososlo, I'll go for under four hours but ultimately I just want to finish it.

menoscemo

dukeraoul wrote: »

Kind of agree meno but don't think "peak milage" covers exactly what you're talking about. Example: my plan had me peak in milage around 8 weeks out from the marathon- the milage has dropped by a very small amount but the intensity/ amount of quality miles has gone way up and will likely peak 3-4 weeks out from the race...

I think a few book plans do something similar...

I get what you are saying and agree.
What I am getting at is if your mileage is at 60mpw@ 3 weeks out (even if you peaked at 70) then I would use the figure of 60 to calculate how much to drop off; so in that case 75% of 60 is around 45 MPW for the first taper week. I would still definitely try to get in a last 20+ miler 3 week out though.

adrian522

Thanks lads, I'll try and do a 20 this week followed by a 22 next week before starting the taper the following week. That would give me a total of 6 runs at 20 miles or longer.

NyOmnishambles

OK new problem

This hasn't happened before despite doing longer distances but since the Half Marathon I have had a bruise under the toe nail of my big toe (and a lesser one on the other foot under the nail of the toe beside the big toe)

Anybody know why this would have happened and what I can do to prevent it happening again and to get it to heal up
I was ok running today but it is a bit sore again after

frash

NyOmnishambles wrote: »

OK new problem

This hasn't happened before despite doing longer distances but since the Half Marathon I have had a bruise under the toe nail of my big toe (and a lesser one on the other foot under the nail of the toe beside the big toe)

Anybody know why this would have happened and what I can do to prevent it happening again and to get it to heal up
I was ok running today but it is a bit sore again after

Foot swelling maybe?
I was in Amphibian King the other day for new runners & they recommended getting a half size bigger than normal as I mentioned doing the marathon.

They didn't have that size in stock though.

neilthefunkeone

As above maybe your runners are slightly too small not allowing your feet to swell up on long runs and your toes being squeezed..

Getting a massage tonight as the legs have been incredibly tight over the last 2 weeks and constantly feeling heavy and sore.. Foam rolling doesn't seem to be hitting it so hopefully this will help me out..
Been missing some miles lately in what seems a pretty important time!!

Hopefully a 20 mile lsr at the weekend too!

Joleigh

NyOmnishambles wrote: »

OK new problem

This hasn't happened before despite doing longer distances but since the Half Marathon I have had a bruise under the toe nail of my big toe (and a lesser one on the other foot under the nail of the toe beside the big toe)

Anybody know why this would have happened and what I can do to prevent it happening again and to get it to heal up
I was ok running today but it is a bit sore again after

Tight runners, tight socks, long toe nails! I got new runners a few months ago and got a blister one 1 toe (which I don't usually suffer from). Loosened my laces all the way down but kept them tight enough at the top to keep them on and it seems fine now. My runners are also half a size bigger. If they are asics you def need a half size up.

Pacing Mule

Was out running today. Felt like a sniper had taken a shot at my calve. They've been too tight for weeks. Sudden shooting stinging and burning sensation radiating from the right calve. Pulled up and sat down close to tears - my DCM aspirations gone in one awful moment of a calve tear.

Then I found the puncture wound and realised I had been stung by a bee. Happy days !

Joleigh

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Was out running today. Felt like a sniper had taken a shot at my calve. They've been too tight for weeks. Sudden shooting stinging and burning sensation radiating from the right calve. Pulled up and sat down close to tears - my DCM aspirations gone in one awful moment of a calve tear.

Then I found the puncture wound and realised I had been stung by a bee. Happy days !

WOOHOO! Happiest ever Bee sting. Phew!!!

Pacing Mule

Joleigh wrote: »

WOOHOO! Happiest ever Bee sting. Phew!!!

I could have danced - a messed up uncoordinated limping dance - but I could have

SoundoftheSea

NyOmnishambles wrote: »

OK new problem

This hasn't happened before despite doing longer distances but since the Half Marathon I have had a bruise under the toe nail of my big toe (and a lesser one on the other foot under the nail of the toe beside the big toe)

Anybody know why this would have happened and what I can do to prevent it happening again and to get it to heal up
I was ok running today but it is a bit sore again after

Ingrown toenails!! This happened to me and I lost both toenails. Go see a chiropodist and she will trim the sides of your nails, Shouldn't be too painful and it should be ok to run on after a day or so.

aquinn

HERE I AM! Over the horror of Saturday and all positive. This is going to be a lot of copying and pasting so please be patient.

Ok so Saturday's Stats, as you can see Garmin had a fit just as I was about to leave the park. What I learnt is that if I stick with the pacers on the day this won't be a fret for me.

Summary 1:49:41.0 12.76 8:36
1 8:37.6 1.00 8:38
2 8:18.2 1.00 8:18
3 7:58.2 1.00 7:58
4 8:13.7 1.00 8:14
5 8:13.8 1.00 8:14
6 8:21.2 1.00 8:21
7 8:21.4 1.00 8:22
8 8:19.7 1.00 8:20
9 10:46.6 1.00 10:47
10 18:20.8 1.00 18:22
11 :09.3 1.00 :38
12 7:32.2 1.00 7:32
13 6:28.3 0.76 8:34

Thankfully after my cry I got over the horror and thankfully on Sunday I wasn't as sore as I thought I would be. Also realised after that it wasn't my legs that gave up, it was me. Also my only body issue after the race was a slightly sore toe nail so that's good going.
I'm thinking of trying jellies now rather than gels for the 20m LSR as I may have a fear of what the gels could do to me whereas I'm well used to Jellies.

I did a lovely evening Monday 4 mile at a pace of 8.40 and it was great that I enjoyed it. Kept it nice and flat on the seafront but no lasting horror.

Took last evening off for a mini cycle across town as per plan.

Tonight then I did my 8 mile 'easy' that went well. Loved the first 4 miles and was chuffed with myself as kept having to slow my pace down so confidence was back. Then of course turned at half way and realised the wind was behind me! That was harder but ok. Here is how it went:

1 8:53.3 1.00 8:53
2 8:47.4 1.00 8:47
3 8:54.2 1.00 8:54
4 8:54.4 1.00 8:54
5 9:22.0 1.00 9:22
6 9:10.6 1.00 9:11
7 8:38.8 1.00 8:39
8 9:03.6 1.00 9:03
Summary 1:11:48.5 8.01 8:58

I ran in shorts on both runs which I wouldn't normally do and they were fine but thinking I'd be better in something like a cycling short on the day so will go and check out Elverys. Anyone of the women tried the EVB's??? I picked up the blurb but not sure it is for me.

I'm not sure if I can do the 5 mile as per the plan tomorrow but I'm looking forward to doing the 20 on Saturday. I'm pondering putting up a group post in other recommended thread for a running partner (as I Know a few here are the same pace) but will see.

Oh and new runners arrived tonight and used them on the run and they were great. I cheated a bit and took the previous Brooks boxes out of the attic and ordered as per them as they were fitted by Runways and AK.

Only real issue then I'm having this week is weight gain as eating is out of control.

Thanks and I hope all are well.

Dub13

RedRunner wrote: »

Hi Dub13,

Everybody is different but this might be a useful reference since I think you and I are very similar in terms of times.

In April I did a 3:52 marathon. This was off a 1:39:50 HM 6 weeks earlier and a fairly uninterrupted training schedule (for a change!) with just one week of 17 missed due to illness. My 10k PB at that time was 46:42 (prev Nov).

In the marathon I had a few issues with cramping and fatigued badly in last 7k but otherwise was well on course for sub 3:45. If everything goes well for you on the day I reckon 3:50 is definitely on for you but i would put any thoughts of 3:36 right out of your head now. The marathon in April was my third marathon in four years. My current times suggest sub 3:30 on calculators but I would have been aiming for sub 3:40 in Dublin if I was running it.

This is not Gospel or anything but since your training is so similar and times, (we even have same address code!) I thought you might find it useful information.

Sorry for the delay in get back to you, when Liverpool are playing I am a busy man and tend to be away from here for a but.

Cheers for the advice, I was never thinking about using these calculators the plan was to always add at least 10 min onto the times they lash out for 2 reasons. 1) The times tend to be very aggressive and 2) its my first big one. The point I was unsuccessfully trying to make here was with the other distances on the estimator been so close to my Pb's you can see how people can get sucked into setting an unrealistic goal.

I have decided to go out with the 3:50 pacers and see how it goes, and this reevaluate around the 20/22 mile mark. You advice has helped me reaffirm I have made the correct choice.

annapr

aquinn wrote: »

HERE I AM! Over the horror of Saturday and all positive. This is going to be a lot of copying and pasting so please be patient.

Ok so Saturday's Stats, as you can see Garmin had a fit just as I was about to leave the park. What I learnt is that if I stick with the pacers on the day this won't be a fret for me.

Summary 1:49:41.0 12.76 8:36
1 8:37.6 1.00 8:38
2 8:18.2 1.00 8:18
3 7:58.2 1.00 7:58
4 8:13.7 1.00 8:14
5 8:13.8 1.00 8:14
6 8:21.2 1.00 8:21
7 8:21.4 1.00 8:22
8 8:19.7 1.00 8:20
9 10:46.6 1.00 10:47
10 18:20.8 1.00 18:22
11 :09.3 1.00 :38
12 7:32.2 1.00 7:32
13 6:28.3 0.76 8:34

Thankfully after my cry I got over the horror and thankfully on Sunday I wasn't as sore as I thought I would be. Also realised after that it wasn't my legs that gave up, it was me. Also my only body issue after the race was a slightly sore toe nail so that's good going.
I'm thinking of trying jellies now rather than gels for the 20m LSR as I may have a fear of what the gels could do to me whereas I'm well used to Jellies.

I did a lovely evening Monday 4 mile at a pace of 8.40 and it was great that I enjoyed it. Kept it nice and flat on the seafront but no lasting horror.

Took last evening off for a mini cycle across town as per plan.

Tonight then I did my 8 mile 'easy' that went well. Loved the first 4 miles and was chuffed with myself as kept having to slow my pace down so confidence was back. Then of course turned at half way and realised the wind was behind me! That was harder but ok. Here is how it went:

1 8:53.3 1.00 8:53
2 8:47.4 1.00 8:47
3 8:54.2 1.00 8:54
4 8:54.4 1.00 8:54
5 9:22.0 1.00 9:22
6 9:10.6 1.00 9:11
7 8:38.8 1.00 8:39
8 9:03.6 1.00 9:03
Summary 1:11:48.5 8.01 8:58

I ran in shorts on both runs which I wouldn't normally do and they were fine but thinking I'd be better in something like a cycling short on the day so will go and check out Elverys. Anyone of the women tried the EVB's??? I picked up the blurb but not sure it is for me.

I'm not sure if I can do the 5 mile as per the plan tomorrow but I'm looking forward to doing the 20 on Saturday. I'm pondering putting up a group post in other recommended thread for a running partner (as I now a few here are the same pace) but will see.

Oh and new runners arrived tonight and used them on the run and they were great. I cheated a bit and took the previous Brooks boxes out of the attic and ordered as per them as they were fitted by Runways and AK.

Only real issue then I'm having this week is weight gain as eating is out of control.

Thanks and I hope all are well.

I have no idea what EVB's are and will probably feel stupid when someone points it out, but elverys have good deals on shorts at the moment. I got a pair of Nike tempo ones (very popular I noticed on Saturday), wore them for the first time on my recovery run and they feel really light and comfortable... They are short though so maybe not ideal for October, but probably ok. elverys in the omni has a decent selection. Prices are as good as sports direct.

aquinn

Hey annapr. Thanks for that. EVB are developed for the support of pelvic floor muscle and the blurb has Mothers raving about them but they also say that it is great for back pain which is why I was interested. Long runs like Saturday though it was more my neck that was sore. I am still not convinced that I will be wearing shorts at the end of October.

denis160

aquinn wrote: »

Anyone of the women tried the EVB's??? I picked up the blurb but not sure it is for me.

Only real issue then I'm having this week is weight gain as eating is out of control.

hi aquinn, haven't tried the evb's, but tend to train the whole time now in the nike 8" filament shorts. Which are like their running leggings, but just sbove the knee. No chaffing on the long runs & a pocket in the back to hold the few bits!

I'm with ya on the eating, haven't stopped since Saturday

Joleigh

Glad you're over Saturday aquinn. It's so last week

Wore shorts for the race on sat but I still think I prefer running tights just below the knee. Unless the weather is above 20c! A lot of the shorts are very short!

Always hungry here too. Started to have a second brekkie of porridge mid morning in work and it really fills me up.

RedRunner

Dub13 wrote: »

Sorry for the delay in get back to you, when Liverpool are playing I am a busy man and tend to be away from here for a but.

Jeez...are you sure you're not my long lost twin brother?!:pac::D

Dub13 wrote: »

Cheers for the advice, I was never thinking about using these calculators the plan was to always add at least 10 min onto the times they lash out for 2 reasons. 1) The times tend to be very aggressive and 2) its my first big one. The point I was unsuccessfully trying to make here was with the other distances on the estimator been so close to my Pb's you can see how people can get sucked into setting an unrealistic goal.

I have decided to go out with the 3:50 pacers and see how it goes, and this reevaluate around the 20/22 mile mark. You advice has helped me reaffirm I have made the correct choice.

I didn't think you'd be aiming for 3:3x , just thought I should reinforce the point.:) I think you are definitely taking the right approach. Keep it up after DCM and I reckon there is definitely faster times again at all distances too.

adrian522

Joleigh wrote: »

Glad you're over Saturday aquinn. It's so last week

Wore shorts for the race on sat but I still think I prefer running tights just below the knee. Unless the weather is above 20c! A lot of the shorts are very short!

Always hungry here too. Started to have a second brekkie of porridge mid morning in work and it really fills me up.

I always have food 4 or 5 times per day. coffee in the morning when I get up, porridge with blueberries/honey once I get into work, toast with peanut butter about 10:30 or 11. Lunch at 12:30 or 1, banana at 3 or 4, and dinner post run, followed by espresso. Maybe a natural yoghurt or something afterwards.

Gotta keep that hunger at bay.

Dub13

Joleigh wrote: »

Wore shorts for the race on sat but I still think I prefer running tights just below the knee. Unless the weather is above 20c! A lot of the shorts are very short!

I nearly always wear shorts and tight cycling type tights, I feel it works best for me.

RedRunner wrote: »

Jeez...are you sure you're not my long lost twin brother?!:pac::D



I didn't think you'd be aiming for 3:3x , just thought I should reinforce the point.:) I think you are definitely taking the right approach. Keep it up after DCM and I reckon there is definitely faster times again at all distances too.

Are you also a Liverpool fan..? I run Irishkop.com so that keeps e very busy, it can be hard to fit in all the games. I am off to the Derby on Sat, the week after DCM I am off to Madrid for the game there. Perfect timing.

I hope to work on speed next year as this year has been all about the mileage, possibly to much.

Casey78

YNWA!

Laois_Man

'King Over Pope' end frequenters, that way to the soccer forum! ->^ :P

Had a good session with the physio last night who recommended a piece of kit for my knee that I hope to pick up today and which I hope will see me get through my LSR tomorrow night with no problems. Got a nice rub down too. I needed it coz pains have come back strong again in the last 2 runs. I think I'm gonna take 2 days away from running after these next 2 LSRs instead of just 1 - might help

I still haven't actually signed up for DCM. Will do it next Tuesday I hope. I'd leave it til October 26th if I could get away with it!

Vico1612

aquinn wrote: »

Hey annapr. Thanks for that. EVB are developed for the support of pelvic floor muscle and the blurb has Mothers raving about them but they also say that it is great for back pain which is why I was interested. Long runs like Saturday though it was more my neck that was sore. I am still not convinced that I will be wearing shorts at the end of October.

Mrs Vico has a pair and she has mixed feelings about them .
Yes they do provide good support but she says the elastic waist band caused a lot of chafing during her long runs. She decided not to wear them on D Day ...

Ososlo

On the topic of what you're wearing on marathon day, I'm surprised you all haven't decided yet on exactly what shorts and whether to wear tights or shorts.
There aren't that many long runs left and you'll really need to practice the exact outfit you'll be wearing on a few of the long runs. Get that one sorted very soon! Please!!!!
Of course it's a personal choice but I'd go for shorts rather than tights. It can get very warm running for hours and hours.

Also while on the subject of clothes, now is a good time to put aside some old clothes to wear over your marathon outfit while waiting around on the morning of the marathon so you can stay warm. You might be hanging around for an hour or so. You want an old loose top and pants that you're prepared to throw away when the race starts. Also a bin bag if wet.