DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

aquinn

smashiner wrote: »

Hi Guys,
Is there going to be a 'Novice Boardies Pacing Group'?

I am running the DCM on my own (all together aawwwww...), as my two running friends ran across the hills screaming when I delared after the Clontarf HM that we should do the full DCM :-)

Thinking of setting up 'The going to have an honest bash at a sub 4 hour marathon but won't be too disappointed if we do a 4:15-4:30 on the day club'....we could call ourselves Team 'Sub4..ish' or 'TONKA' (Team Ososlo's Novices Kick Ass)...other crazy names welcome.

Plan would be line up behind the sub 4 hour group:
First 10K sloooowww at 57-58 minutes, HM pace for around 2 hours (negative split), lift the pace a small bit at Cherrytree Roundabout as it is flat/slight down hill for a few miles, get to 20 miles hopefully in or around 3 hours and see what is left in the tank and push for home, aiming for sub 4 or 4:10 depending on how the auld legs feel.
Was told by a number of people that have ran it that the first 13 miles are tougher as a course and to take it handy.

Anyone on for this madcap idea??

YES! Might be good though to stick with the pacers who know the route though and can advise and help as to what is coming up?
Presume pacers are all decided for the day?

adrian522

Yeah, the first half is certainly more challenging to my mind, if you get your pacing right a negative split should be on the cards. Go easy in the first half though.

hillsiderunner

smashiner wrote: »

Hi Guys,
Is there going to be a 'Novice Boardies Pacing Group'?

I am running the DCM on my own (all together aawwwww...), as my two running friends ran across the hills screaming when I delared after the Clontarf HM that we should do the full DCM :-)

Thinking of setting up 'The going to have an honest bash at a sub 4 hour marathon but won't be too disappointed if we do a 4:15-4:30 on the day club'....we could call ourselves Team 'Sub4..ish' or 'TONKA' (Team Ososlo's Novices Kick Ass)...other crazy names welcome.

Plan would be line up behind the sub 4 hour group:
First 10K sloooowww at 57-58 minutes, HM pace for around 2 hours (negative split), lift the pace a small bit at Cherrytree Roundabout as it is flat/slight down hill for a few miles, get to 20 miles hopefully in or around 3 hours and see what is left in the tank and push for home, aiming for sub 4 or 4:10 depending on how the auld legs feel.
Was told by a number of people that have ran it that the first 13 miles are tougher as a course and to take it handy.

Anyone on for this madcap idea??

The start of this is *exactly* as I plan to do it..... first 8 miles at 9:15 pace (note that gives 57:52 or so for the first 10k), aiming for next 10 at 9:05 pace, and final 8.2 at 8:55 pace (so averaging at 9:05 which is what is needed for sub 4hr). And I guess any of us that can push on, should push on....

I was planning on starting about 2mins behind the pacers so I wouldn't get caught in the crush that I've heard about. Have a A-goal of passing them in the final miles ...

Would be planning for 4:10 I hope as worst option (my 22.5 mile pace would have worked out at 4:17 for the 26.2, and I felt very comfortable during that run) ... but of course you never know on the day.

Will not be miserable running by myself but will be happy to have company - all depending on this leg getting back to 100%. Fingers crossed.

Laois_Man

Some taper advice from Catherina McKiernan

http://www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/fitness/easy-does-it-as-dublin-marathon-is-around-the-corner-30635579.html

The Dublin marathon is now only three weeks away. You've been on a long road and are almost there, so stay calm and focused. It is only natural that many preparing for a marathon run, particularly if it is a first one, are feeling a little anxious. Don't worry, this is quite normal.

It is important that you have confidence and say to yourself every day: "I am healthy, well prepared and I am going to arrive at the starting line rearing to go."

Looking back at my career, the races I was most relaxed for were the races I ended up doing well in. When I was training for marathons, the last three weeks seemed to drag on, and race day felt so near but yet so far. I had a lot of training done, a lot of miles in my legs but still a few more important sessions to do.

Sometimes we end up putting too much pressure on ourselves and this takes away from our performances. So, over the next three weeks you should look forward to the race and go into it with a nice relaxed state of mind.

Every good marathon training plan should have a 'taper' during these final 21 days. The taper portion of the marathon plan is also the time when runners make the most costly mistakes.

Getting out of your normal routine or getting too worked up about the race can ruin months of training. The taper gives your body and mind a chance to rest, recover and prepare for your marathon.

It is important to get the balance right in these final three weeks. Some people over taper leading up to the race. This can lead to you feeling sluggish on race day and increase the chance that you will come down with some type of sickness, as your immune system can crash due to the sudden change in activity and demands on the body.

You may feel some niggles during the taper period. Niggles are small pockets of undirected energy. Don't get concerned as they are more than likely caused by the anticipation of the race and you being a little anxious about the challenge ahead. They will be out of your system by the time race day comes.

Last week should have been your highest mileage week. This week stick with the same basic running schedule, but decrease your total mileage by about 80pc.

Your hardest training is definitely behind you, but if you have been doing some speed work I would advise you to maintain it for this week. For instance, you could do an 8-mile tempo run with the first 4 miles at marathon pace and the second 4 miles at your half-marathon pace. It can be good for your confidence to run quickly and finish strong and fast.

Another way to get a bit of life into your legs is to add some short strides to one of your runs during the week. Strides are not intense.

They are helpful in keeping a better running form and teach your muscles how to relax and maintain a good running rhythm at a higher speed. You could do six-to-eight 100m strides.

Murph_D

adrian522 wrote: »

Yeah, the first half is certainly more challenging to my mind, if you get your pacing right a negative split should be on the cards. Go easy in the first half though.

I've heard this too. But many of us end up hanging on in the final 10k so a negative split would be quite an achievement on the DCM course, especially if it's your first marathon. A "progression run" approach is doubly ambitious, in my humble opinion.

yaboya1

Murph_D wrote: »

I've heard this too. But many of us end up hanging on in the final 10k so a negative split would be quite an achievement on the DCM course, especially if it's your first marathon. A "progression run" approach is doubly ambitious, in my humble opinion.

What do you mean??
Surely anybody can run a negative split in a marathon? :pac: :pac: :pac:

hillsiderunner

Murph_D wrote: »

I've heard this too. But many of us end up hanging on in the final 10k so a negative split would be quite an achievement on the DCM course, especially if it's your first marathon. A "progression run" approach is doubly ambitious, in my humble opinion.

ok. Then if you mean what myself/smashiner are proposing is a "progression run" (our two plans are pretty close even on my calcs I'd hit 20miles at 3hours 2mins), we need to get the wise advice of Ososlo on this strategy.

PS smashiner, you didn't mean HM pace for the middle section really? I think you meant PMP? I could never do my half-pace in a marathon (my half pace is 8:21).

yaboya1

hillsiderunner wrote: »

ok. Then if you mean what myself/smashiner are proposing is a "progression run" (our two plans are pretty close even on my calcs I'd hit 20miles at 3hours 2mins), we need to get the wise advice of Ososlo on this strategy.

PS smashiner, you didn't mean HM pace for the middle section really? I think you meant PMP? I could never do my half-pace in a marathon (my half pace is 8:21).

I think what Murph is trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong Murph) is that running a negative split is much easier in theory than it is in practice. Unless you're running well below your current ability to that point, speeding up after
20 miles is a lot easier said than done, especially if you've never covered the marathon distance before (which almost all first time marathoners haven't). Ideally you want to run even splits for the entire race, but again it's easier said than done, and finishing stronger than you started is probably unlikely because of the reason given above. I've run 5 marathons and never had a negative split (hence my above comment taking the p*ss out of myself. I'm getting
closer though ). There's a fine line between selling yourself short (by running a big negative split) or running the perfect race (with a very small
negative split).

hillsiderunner

yaboya1 wrote: »

I think what Murph is trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong Murph) is that running a negative split is much easier in theory than it is in practice. Unless you're running well below your current ability to that point, speeding up after
20 miles is a lot easier said than done, especially if you've never covered the marathon distance before (which almost all first time marathoners haven't). Ideally you want to run even splits for the entire race, but again it's easier said than done, and finishing stronger than you started is probably unlikely because of the reason given above. I've run 5 marathons and never had a negative split (hence my above comment taking the p*ss out of myself. I'm getting
closer though ). There's a fine line between selling yourself short (by running a big negative split) or running the perfect race (with a very small
negative split).

I know. But I was being sensible I thought. The 2xHalf + 20 mins formula brings me just 1min under 4hours.... I'm borderline. So I was thinking that I was better starting off a little bit slower than that pace at 9:15 so I wouldn't commit the error of going-out-too-fast ... then I would try to do the next 10miles at 9:05 (which is 4hr pace, since we will cover slightly more than 26.2), and then pick-up a bit.

I was doing it so that if I'm not able for the sub-4hr, at least I'd bring it in around 4hr 5 or worst 4hr 10....
I used the start-a-bit-slow strategy at the DCHM and it worked well for that (mild negative splits).

No, I've never done a marathon before ... did 22.5 miles in training a week and a half ago, and was quite comfortable (but did it at 9:46 pace, so not the same).

Nicsx

No run for me on Monday so I slightly upped yesterday's to 8m. Was planning on going out now between finishing work & collecting kids but there is wet stuff falling from the sky!!! Having got completely drenched on Friday during my LSR I'm not keen on another soaking. Add to that, my head's feeling a bit woolly as if there's a cold brewing! :eek:

I know the wise woman would dose herself with lemsip & vit C and probably take it easy to make sure she gets her LSR in on Friday but now I'm worried about over tapering!!!! Of course the sane part of me knows that if this develops into the dreaded lurgy then that will wipe me out more than missing 2 5 milers but hey, it's not called taper madness for nothing. My poor family- they'll have this version of me for another 19 days!

yaboya1

hillsiderunner wrote: »

I know. But I was being sensible I thought. The 2xHalf + 20 mins formula brings me just 1min under 4hours.... I'm borderline. So I was thinking that I was better starting off a little bit slower than that pace at 9:15 so I wouldn't commit the error of going-out-too-fast ... then I would try to do the next 10miles at 9:05 (which is 4hr pace, since we will cover slightly more than 26.2), and then pick-up a bit.

I was doing it so that if I'm not able for the sub-4hr, at least I'd bring it in around 4hr 5 or worst 4hr 10....
I used the start-a-bit-slow strategy at the DCHM and it worked well for that (mild negative splits).

No, I've never done a marathon before ... did 22.5 miles in training a week and a half ago, and was quite comfortable (but did it at 9:46 pace, so not the same).

Judging on your HM time and if you've got the long runs in, I think you should go with the 4 hour pacers. They will run even splits all the way and being part of the group will make it that little bit easier. You also won't have to worry about watching the clock. If you're
feeling strong towards the end they'll encourage you to kick on, while they'll be of great moral support if you're struggling. Obviously it's entirely up to you what you want to do, but that's
just my opinion.

smashiner

hillsiderunner wrote: »

ok. Then if you mean what myself/smashiner are proposing is a "progression run" (our two plans are pretty close even on my calcs I'd hit 20miles at 3hours 2mins), we need to get the wise advice of Ososlo on this strategy.

PS smashiner, you didn't mean HM pace for the middle section really? I think you meant PMP? I could never do my half-pace in a marathon (my half pace is 8:21).

Hi hillsiderunner,
By HM I mean 'Half Marathon' at around 2 hours, sorry if that wasn't clear. I did 20.1 miles (the .1 was important) in 3:04 on Sunday, so I am a pretty similar pace to yourself I think. Never done 26.2 miles to date.

I am going to' give it a go' for sub 4 hours and see what happens when I press the 'Nitro' button at the top of Fosters Avenue (Nitro button may not exist, may just be a childhood memory of watching lots of 'The Dukes of Hazard' episodes)!!:):)

hillsiderunner

smashiner wrote: »

Hi hillsiderunner,
By HM I mean 'Half Marathon' at around 2 hours, sorry if that wasn't clear. I did 20.1 miles (the .1 was important) in 3:04 on Sunday, so I am a pretty similar pace to yourself I think. Never done 26.2 miles to date.

I am going to' give it a go' for sub 4 hours and see what happens when I press the 'Nitro' button at the top of Fosters Avenue (Nitro button may not exist, may just be a childhood memory of watching lots of 'The Dukes of Hazard' episodes)!!:):)

Ah you meant "13.1miles in 2hours" pace (which of course is just above 9min miles)... that sounds more normal.

If that 20.1 miles was a training run (which it probably was) you're probably in better shape than me - my Properly Long Runs have all been 9:30 pace minimum .... sounds like you will have no bother doing the sub 4hr!

Will mull over yaboya's advice on the official pacers...

smashiner

hillsiderunner wrote: »

Ah you meant "13.1miles in 2hours" pace (which of course is just above 9min miles)... that sounds more normal.

If that 20.1 miles was a training run (which it probably was) you're probably in better shape than me - my Properly Long Runs have all been 9:30 pace minimum .... sounds like you will have no bother doing the sub 4hr!

Will mull over yaboya's advice on the official pacers...

Sounds good, hopefully I will be close to the 4 hour mark on the day.

If anyone wants to meet up on the day, I will be the one wearing Asics runners.....I repeat Asics runners :).

More info to follow closer to race day!!

AdpRo

smashiner wrote: »

Hi hillsiderunner,
By HM I mean 'Half Marathon' at around 2 hours, sorry if that wasn't clear. I did 20.1 miles (the .1 was important) in 3:04 on Sunday, so I am a pretty similar pace to yourself I think. Never done 26.2 miles to date.

I am going to' give it a go' for sub 4 hours and see what happens when I press the 'Nitro' button at the top of Fosters Avenue (Nitro button may not exist, may just be a childhood memory of watching lots of 'The Dukes of Hazard' episodes)!!:):)

That's a 20.1m run at PMP you did there if I'm not mistaken, you should be easily able to go under 4. I am hoping for under 4 in Amsterdam next weekend but have been doing my LSR's at around 10.00 - 10.20 m/m with some PMP section towards the end. I have done 14 at PMP but not at all confident that I will last another 12.2!

Firedance

Over tapering???!!!!??? ah come ON! actually very interesting piece to read, was going to skip my club tempo run on Thursday but might do it now given what Catherina McKiernan says, although.... I was half thinking of running home from work on Friday eve as my LSR, the mileage is just right (around 13 miles), decisions decisions.

I too am trying to work out my pace / distance so I can tell my 'support team' where to be and roughly what time I'll get there at, I was looking at trying for negative splits too but given I've yet to ever do one in any race I might abandon that :-). If I calculate my best possible pace and my worst pace (hopefully no worse than that!) and give them the time difference between the two this might work.

annapr

yaboya1 wrote: »

What do you mean??
Surely anybody can run a negative split in a marathon? :pac: :pac: :pac:

I dunno, trying to remember a quote I heard somewhere.... Oh yeah, 'never underestimate the marathon'!

annapr

3 days into taper and I have a 4 year old puking and coughing on me... No imaginary bugs around here!

Firedance

'everything you need to know about DCM'

http://www.irishmirror.ie/whats-on/whats-on-news/dublin-marathon-2014-everything-you-4401725

Nicsx

annapr wrote: »

3 days into taper and I have a 4 year old puking and coughing on me... No imaginary bugs around here!

Yikes!!! I hope you're masked & double gloved whenever you come into contact with the germ carrier!

Murph_D

yaboya1 wrote: »

Judging on your HM time and if you've got the long runs in, I think you should go with the 4 hour pacers. They will run even splits all the way and being part of the group will make it that little bit easier. You also won't have to worry about watching the clock. If you're feeling strong towards the end they'll encourage you to kick on, while they'll be of great moral support if you're struggling. Obviously it's entirely up to you what you want to do, but that's just my opinion.

+1 to this.

If you want to break 4 hours, go with the pacers, that's always the best strategy, and the one that requires the least mental input from you on the day. It's hard to start re-computing your desired pace when you're tired, believe me, and if nothing happens when you press the nitro button at least you won't be alone.

That said, if for some reason you can't or won't run with pacers, give yourself a couple of minutes of leeway (e.g. if you're aiming for 4:05, pace it at 4:02 or so, to allow for a little bit of fade, or for the extra 300m you will probably run on the day.

And enjoy the experience!

annapr

Nicsx wrote: »

Yikes!!! I hope you're masked & double gloved whenever you come into contact with the germ carrier!

I wish! that might be just a bit harsh. Better now than in 2 weeks time though i suppose, building up my immunity!

smashiner

Murph_D wrote: »

+1 to this.

If you want to break 4 hours, go with the pacers, that's always the best strategy, and the one that requires the least mental input from you on the day. It's hard to start re-computing your desired pace when you're tired, believe me, and if nothing happens when you press the nitro button at least you won't be alone.

That said, if for some reason you can't or won't run with pacers, give yourself a couple of minutes of leeway (e.g. if you're aiming for 4:05, pace it at 4:02 or so, to allow for a little bit of fade, or for the extra 300m you will probably run on the day.

Thanks guys,
As always, solid and sensible advice. Might set up the Sub4..ish camp just behind the 4 hour pacers and attach a 5 foot rope to one of them....:-)
Really looking forward to this now....did a tough 10k uphill on the way home at a slightly faster pace just to get a bit of pace back in to the 'lsr' legs..knackered now :-)

gl0Rob

Hi All

Looking for some advice on a time to aim for. Ran Limerick marathon 5 months ago and finished in 4:45 (very enjoyable first 23 miles. Hell for the last 3).

Since then, I've lost a lot of the excess weight and improved my training and all my shorter distance times have come down as a result.

10k: 45:00
Half: 1:38:00 (Charleville)
30k last weekend: 2:27:30 (Human Race)

Longs runs have been for the last 6 weeks have been 19m , 20m, 22m, 22m, 23.5m, (19m race). All at 9:39 pace.

What should I be doing for my run this weekend? I do my LSR's on Saturdays so the Race been on a Monday has really confused me as to what I should be doing this weekend.

Thanks in advance.

adrian522

Most plans people are following here seem to have about 12-14 miles this weekend and then 8 to 10 miles the following weekend.

I do my LSR's on Saturday too, I don't think the race being on a Monday effects that at all.

adrian522

How many gels are people planning on carrying on the day of the race?

RunRoryRun

adrian522 wrote: »

How many gels are people planning on carrying on the day of the race?

I've been taking appr 4 gels on 20 - 22 mile runs so will carry that amount with me. If I feel I need another, I'll pick one up on the way.

gl0Rob

adrian522 wrote: »

How many gels are people planning on carrying on the day of the race?

12. I wont use 12 but I tend to lose one or two. In training I have used 1 every 10k - 15k. Racing I tend to use one every 5k, never had an issue. I won't be relying on what is available on coarse.

locombia

What if you've trained with something else other than water of pure Lucozade?? I've trained with diluted Lucozade and a nuun tablet and carried it in one of those hand held bottle thingys. I tend to only drink half of it (taking a sip at every mile once I've passed 3-4 mile mark) while running and half of it is gulped down as soon as I finish running. So for race day I plan on filling it up half way and discarding the bottle at about mile 18-19 to free up my arms for the last push...

Firedance

adrian522 wrote: »

How many gels are people planning on carrying on the day of the race?

4 - to be taken roughly 5, 10, 15 & 20 miles. I'll also give a few spares to family posted around the course.