DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

Ososlo

Dub13 wrote: »

Yes, I did nothing Sun & Mon then 15k Tue, Wen and Today. I would normally have either a rest day on Fri or a short run with a view to doing the LSR on Sat or Sun but this weekend is made busy so that's why I moved it to Friday.

Looks like I should have taken it easy today.

I think you know yourself that a lot of longer runs done in succession is not a great idea unless you're quite experienced. Hopefully you were running them nice and easy and will get away with it this time. It's always tricky trying to accommodate the runs when life gets busy so I can understand why you'd try to fit them all in but I'd error on the side of caution and skip one rather than squeezing too many in or just shorten them.
You know this yourself anyways I'm sure;)

Ososlo

How are our Hanson girls and what way are you thinking at this stage about your plans? Going to give it a go or thinking of alternatives?

RunRoryRun

RedRunner wrote: »

Yes, very valid point. This is why I reckoned he needs more midweek miles and the extra day as well as more longer runs. I definitely found doing more miles this year has helped my progress so I imagine that will also help Rory. The combination of more miles and more longer runs is what accounted for my big improvement this year, I'm sure of it.(And the expert advice of Menoscemo and Career_Move of course!;)) So I believe the same would apply to Rory. Everybody's different of course and I'm still searching for the magic formula with each attempt. That's the beauty of marathon running, you learn something new with each race and training block.There could also have been other factors on the day that we are not aware of.

Also I wouldn't want to appear to be criticising the novice plan for those that are running for first time as I'm purely speaking of my own experiences here and given that Rory has run two already and my experiences are very similar to his first two I thought it'd be useful to share what I know has worked for me.

Thanks AuldManKing, RedRunner and Ososlo!

This year will increase the number of days midweek (definitely 3, but will try to squeeze 4) and get more 20+ mile runs in the plan. The lack of mp miles hurt me last year so will have to work that into one midweek and some of the lsr.

Keep you posted as I go!

Laois_Man

3 test miles done
Felt OK apart from a sudden pain near the end of mile 2.
Was going to stop but slowed and stayed going.
It'll be interesting to see how I feel in the morning.

Im not getting enough miles in and speedwork is out of the question lately - so slightly frustrated

Pacing Mule

RedRunner wrote: »

This will make 4 cents so.

RunRoryRun

I've blown up in all three marathons I've done to date. Only difference with last one is I had some cramp issues and I fatigued a bit later than I normally do. My problem....endurance. My solution (I believe) more miles in the legs, more 20+ mile runs and more mp miles this year.

I did 4.45 off a 2:12 HM in my first marathon so I'm familiar with the territory you are in. My advice is more longer runs in your plan. Not sure what the novice plan has in store for you as I type but I think to accommodate more 18-20 mile runs you need more miles midweek too so I' d advise 5 days a week rather than 4 if can squeeze even a shortish run into the fifth day. Just my experience from last few years.

Just going to chime in on this in case it scares some of the novices following Hal Higdons plan here which has no pace miles.

The novices here traditionally followed Hal Higdons plan with good success rates. Last year it was put forward that perhaps this was not the best way forward for everyone (mainly because the spread of novices had increased dramatically) and a second plan was put in place which Ososlo has amended and crafted to include marathon pace runs.

I think it should be emphasised that MP runs are most definitely required for those for want of a better word pushing for a goal time that stretches them a bit. The Hal Higdon plan is a plan literally to get you around your first marathon. It's about time on your feet, getting you used to covering the distances required at a reasonably comfortable pace.

One of the plans will suit you depending on your circumstances, training background and targets. If it's the Hal Higdon plan marathon don't get too hung up on the lack of MP miles.

RedRunner

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Just going to chime in on this in case it scares some of the novices following Hal Higdons plan here which has no pace miles.

The novices here traditionally followed Hal Higdons plan with good success rates. Last year it was put forward that perhaps this was not the best way forward for everyone (mainly because the spread of novices had increased dramatically) and a second plan was put in place which Ososlo has amended and crafted to include marathon pace runs.

I think it should be emphasised that MP runs are most definitely required for those for want of a better word pushing for a goal time that stretches them a bit. The Hal Higdon plan is a plan literally to get you around your first marathon. It's about time on your feet, getting you used to covering the distances required at a reasonably comfortable pace.

One of the plans will suit you depending on your circumstances, training background and targets. If it's the Hal Higdon plan marathon don't get too hung up on the lack of MP miles.

Totally agree PM which is why I qualified my comment . i was speaking more in relation to Rory's particular situation having done two marathons, but well worth emphasising the point!:;)

RedRunner wrote: »

Also I wouldn't want to appear to be criticising the novice plan for those that are running for first time as I'm purely speaking of my own experiences here and given that Rory has run two already and my experiences are very similar to his first two I thought it'd be useful to share what I know has worked for me.

Pacing Mule

RedRunner wrote: »

Totally agree PM which is why I qualified my comment . i was speaking more in relation to Rory's particular situation having done two marathons, but well worth emphasising the point!:;)

Sorry mate. Tbh hadn't read your second post before posting mine. My bad. I would have included it in my post if I had.

My post though was aimed more in general to point out that there may be discussion here about aspects of the boards plan that could confuse if not scare those following the Hal Higdon plan and those following it need not be concerned.

Ososlo

RedRunner wrote: »

Totally agree PM which is why I qualified my comment . i was speaking more in relation to Rory's particular situation having done two marathons, but well worth emphasising the point!:;)

Absolutely. Rory isn't a novice in the true sense of the word and it's great that he can get advice from RR and AMK who have both done a few marathons.

Hal has worked over and over again on this forum for novices with great success. The other plan is just to have something on offer for those with a little more experience. Whatever plan you pick, have confidence in it.

Laois_Man

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Just going to chime in on this in case it scares some of the novices following Hal Higdons plan here which has no pace miles.

The novices here traditionally followed Hal Higdons plan with good success rates. Last year it was put forward that perhaps this was not the best way forward for everyone (mainly because the spread of novices had increased dramatically) and a second plan was put in place which Ososlo has amended and crafted to include marathon pace runs.

I think it should be emphasised that MP runs are most definitely required for those for want of a better word pushing for a goal time that stretches them a bit. The Hal Higdon plan is a plan literally to get you around your first marathon. It's about time on your feet, getting you used to covering the distances required at a reasonably comfortable pace.

One of the plans will suit you depending on your circumstances, training background and targets. If it's the Hal Higdon plan marathon don't get too hung up on the lack of MP miles.

Bravo!

I'm glad someone is saying - and I'm gonna be even less diplomatic. Not all, but the vast majority of TRUE novices who decide to follow the Boards plan are absolutely off their heads. I feel strongly that real novices should be actively steered away from it in all but the case of the very cream of the crop exception or two and I frankly don't care what kind of expert any mod on here thinks he is. I suspect if a novice or even for that matter, someone who had blown up in a previous Marathon or 2 had come along in the DCM 2011 or 2012 thread and announced their intention to follow Hal Higdons Advanced 2 plan, men in white coats would've been called pronto. Yet when you compare that plan with the Boards plan, it's actually the Boards plan that has the greater mileage across almost all weeks (albeit alot more slower miles). I don't agree with it at all and it's the last I'll say of it.

Ososlo

Laois_Man wrote: »

Bravo!

I'm glad someone is saying - and I'm gonna be even less diplomatic. Not all, but the vast majority of TRUE novices who decide to follow the Boards plan are absolutely off their heads. I feel strongly that real novices should be actively steered away from it in all but the case of the very cream of the crop exception or two and I frankly don't care what kind of expert any mod on here thinks he is. I suspect if a novice or even for that matter, someone who had blown up in a previous Marathon or 2 had come along in the DCM 2011 or 2012 thread and announced their intention to follow Hal Higdons Advanced 2 plan, men in white coats would've been called pronto. Yet when you compare that plan with the Boards plan, it's actually the Boards plan that has the greater mileage across almost all weeks (albeit alot more slower miles). I don't agree with it at all and it's the last I'll say of it.

But some novices did follow it last year and found it good and they were fairly new to running too. That's why I offered both this year and would strongly encourage inexperienced people to follow the Hal programme.

RedRunner

Laois_Man wrote: »

Bravo!

I'm glad someone is saying - and I'm gonna be even less diplomatic. Not all, but the vast majority of TRUE novices who decide to follow the Boards plan are absolutely off their heads. I feel strongly that real novices should be actively steered away from it in all but the case of the very cream of the crop exception or two and I frankly don't care what kind of expert any mod on here thinks he is. I suspect if a novice or even for that matter, someone who had blown up in a previous Marathon or 2 had come along in the DCM 2011 or 2012 thread and announced their intention to follow Hal Higdons Advanced 2 plan, men in white coats would've been called pronto. Yet when you compare that plan with the Boards plan, it's actually the Boards plan that has the greater mileage across almost all weeks (albeit alot more slower miles). I don't agree with it at all and it's the last I'll say of it.

Hi LaoisMan,

Your comments of course are welcome but I'm not really sure what you are getting at here. The mentored novice thread has been a forum for first timers and others who have run more than one marathon for the last few years and I thought Ososlo was being rather innovative here in offering alternative plans for those more experienced novices (for want of a better expression). And I believe the general advice thus far as I read it anyway for the first timers is to go with HHNovice and quite correctly so.

RunRoryRun came on here with a specific question and all I/we did was offer up some advice based on our experience. I don't see a conflict between the two here at all. I don't believe anyone is claiming to be an expert here , are they?

menoscemo

Laois_Man wrote: »

I suspect if a novice or even for that matter, someone who had blown up in a previous Marathon or 2 had come along in the DCM 2011 or 2012 thread and announced their intention to follow Hal Higdons Advanced 2 plan, men in white coats would've been called pronto. Yet when you compare that plan with the Boards plan, it's actually the Boards plan that has the greater mileage across almost all weeks (albeit alot more slower miles). I don't agree with it at all and it's the last I'll say of it.

I don't see where you are getting this from?
I just checked the Boards Plan Ososlo posted in first thread. It peaks at 45 mpw (or 40 if you cross train on recovery days).
HH advanced2 has 50+ miles most weeks.
HH novice 1 peaks at 40 mpw, so there is not a a great difference mileage wise with the boards plan.

FWIW I totally disagree with you. If you have blown up in 2 previous marathons and want to improve this time (i.e. not blow up) the solution is not to do less miles in training....

I have said it time and time again but the mistake I find most novices make with novice plans such as HH is that they do all/most of their runs at MP or faster thus making a relatively easy plan much harder than it should be.

By differentiating MP from easy pace in a slightly more advanced plan you are actually encouraging the novice to slow down on their other easy runs.

Pacing Mule

Laois_Man wrote: »

Bravo!

I'm glad someone is saying - and I'm gonna be even less diplomatic. Not all, but the vast majority of TRUE novices who decide to follow the Boards plan are absolutely off their heads. I feel strongly that real novices should be actively steered away from it in all but the case of the very cream of the crop exception or two and I frankly don't care what kind of expert any mod on here thinks he is. I suspect if a novice or even for that matter, someone who had blown up in a previous Marathon or 2 had come along in the DCM 2011 or 2012 thread and announced their intention to follow Hal Higdons Advanced 2 plan, men in white coats would've been called pronto. Yet when you compare that plan with the Boards plan, it's actually the Boards plan that has the greater mileage across almost all weeks (albeit alot more slower miles). I don't agree with it at all and it's the last I'll say of it.

I really need to be clear here

My point was not in any way a critique of the boards plan. I am not experienced enough / don't know enough personally to do so.

The boards plan contains MP miles. Hal Higdon doesn't. I just wanted to point out that the what I feel is indeed valid talk about having enough MP miles done is not relevant to those on the HH plan and not to get hung up on it. It was a struggle back in 2012 for our group of novices to get our heads around running all runs slower than MP on the HH plan. I would be fearful that the combined thread for the two plans here could cause a bit of confusion.

Murph_D

FWIW I followed Hal Higdon Novice 2 for my first marathon (DCM 2012). I'd been running 2-3 times a week for about a year at that stage so thought I could handle the step up from HHN1. I followed the plan pretty religiously (it's important to note that whatever plan you pick, you need to stick to it - mixing and matching makes for a different plan). AFAIK there weren't many MP miles in the long runs but there were some in the midweek runs. Enough to get a feel that it would not be easy to sustain for 26.2m.

My recollection of this first ever marathon training block were that my legs (and especially my knees) were sore the whole time. The long runs really took it out of me. In the end I was able to run a 4:02 (lost a good few mins in the last 10k, but ran the whole thing). My point is that the plan was a genuine challenge for a novice, but it produced its rewards in that I was very happy with how it went. I have to say I agree with Laois Man - when I saw last year's custom plan I thought it was too much for the average first timer.

There were a lot of great novices last year who got a lot out of the custom plan. I think as long as people understand what they are getting into and have a strong athletic background it will do the business for them for sure. Ososlo is right to encourage more inexperienced runners towards HHN1 though.

Ososlo

Again, I invite novices from last year to relay their experiences of the plan or I'll go through the thread tomorrow and find their posts again and put them up here but that plan seemed to work for those who chose it last year.

It's really not that difficult...
Look at both plans and choose the one that suits you best. From what I've seen of those who've posted so far (and I've been keeping a close eye on it) 2014 novices are not thick and have already picked the plan that suits them and their experience best. I don't think anyone is going to go for the Boards' plan if they're currently starting from a very low base and their main aim is to just complete the race.

SamforMayo

Ososlo wrote: »

Again, I invite novices from last year to relay their experiences of the plan or I'll go through the thread tomorrow and find their posts again and put them up here but that plan seemed to work for those who chose it last year.

It's really not that difficult...
Look at both plans and choose the one that suits you best. From what I've seen of those who've posted so far (and I've been keeping a close eye on it) 2014 novices are not thick and have already picked the plan that suits them and their experience best. I don't think anyone is going to go for the Boards' plan if they're currently starting from a very low base and their main aim is to just complete the race.

Well I followed the boards plan last year, I was running a little over a year, 1 HM and a few 10km was all I had behind me. I did what I was told, followed it to the letter, got great confidence from the structure of it and the couple of 20 milers and ran 3.58 without too much suffering. It worked for me.

ecoli

Laois_Man wrote: »

Bravo!

I'm glad someone is saying - and I'm gonna be even less diplomatic. Not all, but the vast majority of TRUE novices who decide to follow the Boards plan are absolutely off their heads. I feel strongly that real novices should be actively steered away from it in all but the case of the very cream of the crop exception or two and I frankly don't care what kind of expert any mod on here thinks he is. I suspect if a novice or even for that matter, someone who had blown up in a previous Marathon or 2 had come along in the DCM 2011 or 2012 thread and announced their intention to follow Hal Higdons Advanced 2 plan, men in white coats would've been called pronto. Yet when you compare that plan with the Boards plan, it's actually the Boards plan that has the greater mileage across almost all weeks (albeit alot more slower miles). I don't agree with it at all and it's the last I'll say of it.

I think this is a huge part of making it a safe and successful plan. There is no reason why the vast majority of people can't do this sort of mileage with minimal risk of injury as long as they keep the intensity low.

The fact is the majority of novices are coming from zero to minimal running background, One of the single greatest influential factors for marathon training is a persons aerobic capacity. You are never gonna develop to optimum levels in 18 weeks (which is why people often take chunks of marathon times after numerous cycles) but you need to get as much in as is possible while keeping injury risk low compromising aerobic capacity through loss of consistency.

The problem is for many novices (and indeed experienced runners if we are honest) ego can get in the way when it comes to pacing. We want to make ourselves believe that faster paces are within our realm of low intensity for numerous reasons (giving ourselves confidence in our ability, bragging rights etc) and as such overestimate our ability relative to pace and often run too fast for our "easy" runs. This is where many overuse injuries commonly associated with early running career injuries arise from.

McMillan calculator doesn't help in this regard either most first timers use their 5k/10k times as a marker for pace setting which spits out very aggressive targets for marathon for people new to the sport (and indeed for many who are still developing aerobically)

If someone is to follow this plan I think it is very doable for novices (and would leave you in a good position) but I would advise the following - if you feel easy on your runs, slow down, if it feel comfortable , slow down a little bit. You should always try to run a little slower than you think you are.

The consistency and mileage will yield huge gains for novices not the speed

Ososlo

Great post ecoli but I would still say that the Hal plan is a good plan and has served novice marathon runners very well too over the years both here and in general.
I can appreciate how the Boards' plan might appear a little intimidating for someone coming from a very low base who just wants to get around on the day so would still encourage those people to consider sticking with Hal.

Btw, your comment about running easy runs too fast is something that could be re-iterated every hour of every day on boards to every level of runner (not just novices) from what I see in the logs:D

menoscemo

Ecoli always explains things better than me

Ososlo

This very conversation arose last year and will arise next year again more than likely:D I thought that by having both plans we might avoid it but I guess not:D
It's good though to have it out like this and I would invite any novice who is unsure about what plan to follow to pop any concerns they might have up here as we still have 3 weeks or so before the plan starts so loads of time to make your choice.

Firedance

Ososlo wrote: »

How are our Hanson girls and what way are you thinking at this stage about your plans? Going to give it a go or thinking of alternatives?

just finished the book, also contacted the author with the comments here about it not being really suitable for beginners and i feel reassured by his feedback (i gave him my times & weekly milage) i also spoke more to the coach in the club. Yes it will be a challenge but hey its 26.2 miles, it was never going to be straightforward! Anyway, for me having a group of people who live close by to do all the runs with will help a lot. Meantime im doing my 2 club sessions a week & 3 road runs of varying distances & intensity. Legs are tired :-)

Ososlo

Firedance wrote: »

just finished the book, also contacted the author with the comments here about it not being really suitable for beginners and i feel reassured by his feedback (i gave him my times & weekly milage) i also spoke more to the coach in the club. Yes it will be a challenge but hey its 26.2 miles, it was never going to be straightforward! Anyway, for me having a group of people who live close by to do all the runs with will help a lot. Meantime im doing my 2 club sessions a week & 3 road runs of varying distances & intensity. Legs are tired :-)

Great stuff! That's very pro-active of you! I'm really excited to see how it goes for you. Please keep us posted once the plan proper starts! Or even better, start a log!

JMSE

Havent done anything since tuesday when I got a niggle 2 hrs after 3 mile run in the front lower right shin, not a pain but a something. Seems gone now already but 50/50 on whether I will go out tomorrow, it'll be offroad if I do. Dang being an impatient mistake making novice.......

laura_ac3

Ososlo wrote: »

This very conversation arose last year and will arise next year again more than likely:D I thought that by having both plans we might avoid it but I guess not:D
It's good though to have it out like this and I would invite any novice who is unsure about what plan to follow to pop any concerns they might have up here as we still have 3 weeks or so before the plan starts so loads of time to make your choice.

Was just about to pop out of the woodwork after reading the last few posts. I've actually recently been humming over which plan to do. Was initially think HH novice 1 coming into this but been properly looking at the boards plan now to see if it might actually suit me. Then these posts pop up as if reading my mind!!! I really just want to complete this marathon running as much, if not all, as a newbie and enjoy it as much as possible. Have completed 3 half marathons and about 12 other races varying distances from 5 to 10 miles in the last 2 years. As I said before I'm a bit of a plodder so would consider myself relatively inexperienced I think still compared to others. But barring a couple of injuries I have been running fairly consistently on average 3 times a week in that period albeit not at a high mileage unless I was training for the half marathons.

I like the idea of the couple of extra LSR in the boards plan compared to the HH one. Just for extra practice and confidence building I guess. But given my recent niggle I'm not sure if it would be a bit ambitious for me to start with it. So I've been considering HH novice 2 as a bit if a compromise between the two. Was interested to read murph_d's comments, thank you. Any guidance for me on what may suit or other feedback on HH 2 much appreciated!! Any more info needed about me - just ask

Dub13

I am actually thinking about switching to the boards plan, I was planning on doing the run Ireland novice plan but finding it hard to find reviews of that plan or talk to people who did it. How does the boards plan fit in for the 4 races in the Dublin race series..?

Pacing Mule

Ososlo wrote: »

This very conversation arose last year and will arise next year again more than likely:D I thought that by having both plans we might avoid it but I guess not:D
It's good though to have it out like this and I would invite any novice who is unsure about what plan to follow to pop any concerns they might have up here as we still have 3 weeks or so before the plan starts so loads of time to make your choice.

What would be the minimum recommended base for the boards plan?

Darren 83

Last night I did the clubs Graded meet for 1500 meters and 200. I didn't do a club session for at least 5 months because of my injury last year.

1500m was the first race I did think I was being a bit conservative didn't really know what I was capable off, every lap I did got a welcome back, the last 120 meters I just floored it passing another runner by 2 sec.

Time: 6:04:2

200m Just ran as fast as possible

Time: 33.6

So very happy with that


A good point to make after I got injured I only ever followed hals plans 10k plan and now Novice 2, The plans work trust in them

Ososlo

laura_ac3 wrote: »

I like the idea of the couple of extra LSR in the boards plan compared to the HH one. Just for extra practice and confidence building I guess. But given my recent niggle I'm not sure if it would be a bit ambitious for me to start with it. So I've been considering HH novice 2 as a bit if a compromise between the two. Was interested to read murph_d's comments, thank you. Any guidance for me on what may suit or other feedback on HH 2 much appreciated!! Any more info needed about me - just ask

Hi Laura
I think HH2 might suit you very well just by glancing at it. I'll have a more in-depth look at it later. After reading Murph's comments it looks like a very good plan which served him well.
By the way, there's no problem adapting any plan to include extra miles onto the lsrs. Instead of an 18 later in the plan you could do a 19 or 20.
I think we had some novices following the HH2 plan last year too so it'd be great if they could relay their experiences of the plan.

Ososlo

Pacing Mule wrote: »

What would be the minimum recommended base for the boards plan?

I would say it's not so much how long one has been running but how consistently and one would want to be very comfortable running 20 miles per week when the plan starts as opposed to Hal's plan which only reaches 20 mpw 5 weeks into the plan I think.
The boards' plan reaches 32 miles 5 weeks into the plan so I'd advise novices to look at the weeks ahead and see if you realistically think you can reach that mileage safely. It shouldn't be a huge struggle to reach that mileage, it should be quite comfortable.

Ososlo

Dub13 wrote: »

I am actually thinking about switching to the boards plan, I was planning on doing the run Ireland novice plan but finding it hard to find reviews of that plan or talk to people who did it. How does the boards plan fit in for the 4 races in the Dublin race series..?

It only includes the 10 miles and half marathon in the Race Series, but if you're doing the other races we can advise you the week before as to what kind of adjustments you should make to your week of training.