DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

Dub13

Murph_D wrote: »

Looks like your pacing is about right - nice.

Cheers, it was also on the back of doing 3 15k runs. So the legs were feeling it but still grand. I was just looking at my times for those 3 15k lunch runs as I uploaded them today, seems I did my fastest one on the last day. Not sure what to make of that.

Tue 1:23:48 @ 9:00 min/mi
Wen 1:26:11 @ 9:15 min/mi
Thu 1:21:49 @ 8:47 min/mi

Ososlo

Dub13 wrote: »

Cheers, it was also on the back of doing 3 15k runs. So the legs were feeling it but still grand. I was just looking at my times for those 3 15k lunch runs as I uploaded them today, seems I did my fastest one on the last day. Not sure what to make of that.

Tue 1:23:48 @ 9:00 min/mi
Wen 1:26:11 @ 9:15 min/mi
Thu 1:21:49 @ 8:47 min/mi

Great running and lovely to see progress but I think you should be running most of your runs (unless they're specific tempo runs) a lot slower/easier. If you feel your mp is around 9 min/mile then the pace of today's run would be more like what you should be doing for the majority of your running or slower even.
How did you feel on those 3 runs? Did you feel very comfortable and would you have been able to chat easily?

Dub13

Ososlo wrote: »

How did you feel on those 3 runs? Did you feel very comfortable and would you have been able to chat easily?

Yes felt grand and would have been able to chat easily. Going to slow my runs down now as we were getting closer to the plan starting I want to be more on sync.

menoscemo

Ososlo wrote: »

Great running and lovely to see progress but I think you should be running most of your runs (unless they're specific tempo runs) a lot slower/easier. If you feel your mp is around 9 min/mile then the pace of today's run would be more like what you should be doing for the majority of your running or slower even.
How did you feel on those 3 runs? Did you feel very comfortable and would you have been able to chat easily?

+1. Reread what myself and ecoli wrote yesterday about most novices running easy runs too fast.
You should only be doing 1 run a week (if even that) at MP. You have just done 3 in a row. If your goal is a sub 4 marathon you should be doing most of your runs around 10 min/mile. The paces you posted above would be typical (and correct) for someone going for around 3:30.

Dub13

menoscemo wrote: »

+1. Reread what myself and ecoli wrote yesterday about most novices running easy runs too fast.
You should only be doing 1 run a week (if even that) at MP. You have just done 3 in a row. If your goal is a sub 4 marathon you should be doing most of your runs around 10 min/mile. The paces you posted above would be typical (and correct) for someone going for around 3:30.

Yes will start to slow them down now the closer we get. One question, how should I approach the Clontarf half on July 5th..? Go at MP...?

Ososlo

Dub13 wrote: »

Yes will start to slow them down now the closer we get. One question, how should I approach the Clontarf half on July 5th..? Go at MP...?

You might be selling yourself short on your mp.
That half will tell a lot so race is as a half marathon and then re-evaluate your mp.

menoscemo

Dub13 wrote: »

Yes will start to slow them down now the closer we get. One question, how should I approach the Clontarf half on July 5th..? Go at MP...?

It depends where it falls in the plan.
I think generally you should race sparingly but when you do race, give it 100%, and adjust your plan accordingly (take severaleasy days before and after)....You won't learn anything from running at MP when you could do that with your eyes closed.

Ososlo

Dub13 wrote: »

Yes will start to slow them down now the closer we get. One question, how should I approach the Clontarf half on July 5th..? Go at MP...?

Any idea of what you think you might be capable in the half? Just looking at your pb there from a few months back. 1:48. Nice one:)
What will you aim for do you think?

Dub13

Ososlo wrote: »

Any idea of what you think you might be capable in the half? Just looking at your pb there from a few months back. 1:48. Nice one:)
What will you aim for do you think?

Each time I do a half I seem to know about 2 min off my PB, would like to keep that up and get near 1:45 but you never know with running on the coast if the day is bad all plans go out the window.

Ososlo

Dub13 wrote: »

Each time I do a half I seem to know about 2 min off my PB, would like to keep that up and get near 1:45 but you never know with running on the coast if the day is bad all plans go out the window.

yeah from what I've heard it's not a pb course but I'd still say you'll knock a chunk off your time.
It'll be exciting to see what you'll do:D It's tricky alright trying to work out mp at the moment so just error on the side of caution for now so keep it comfortable.

menoscemo

Dub13 wrote: »

Each time I do a half I seem to know about 2 min off my PB, would like to keep that up and get near 1:45 but you never know with running on the coast if the day is bad all plans go out the window.

There'll be a couple of celebrity 1:45 pacers (well 1 celeb and 1 hanger on).

Darren 83

Quick question looking to use Clontarf as a mp course, say after a few miles should I push on if I can or just do the whole race at mp?

Ososlo

Darren 83 wrote: »

Quick question looking to use Clontarf as a mp course, say after a few miles should I push on if I can or just do the whole race at mp?

Just wondering why you want to do it at mp?

Darren 83

Ososlo wrote: »

Just wondering why you want to do it at mp?

Mainly to see can I do it and if the training is paying off

Ososlo

Darren 83 wrote: »

Mainly to see can I do it and if the training is paying off

Just my opinion but running 13 miles at mp is worlds apart from running 26 miles at mp so it doesn't really tell you anything except that you can run 13 miles at mp.
If it was me and I wanted to do the race I'd race it as a half and use the result to work out training paces for any mp work in the plan.

Ososlo

menoscemo wrote: »

There'll be a couple of celebrity 1:45 pacers (well 1 celeb and 1 hanger on).

You gonna keep us guessing? I'm thinking one of the 'clebs' must be your good self?

Darren 83

Ososlo wrote: »

Just my opinion but running 13 miles at mp is worlds apart from running 26 miles at mp so it doesn't really tell you anything except that you can run 13 miles at mp.
If it was me and I wanted to do the race I'd race it as a half and use the result to work out training paces for any mp work in the plan.

I'm already signed up, maybe do a few mp miles then race the rest dont want to over do it

menoscemo

Ososlo wrote: »

You gonna keep us guessing? I'm thinking one of the 'clebs' must be your good self?

Ah no, I'm doing 1:50. Claralara is pacing 1:45 with her chief hanger on :P.

@Darren +1 on Ososlo's advice. If you can't run 13.1 at MP now you certainly won't be running that pace for 26.2 in a few months.
The pace you 'can' run 13.1 at by definition is your Half Marathon Pace, not your Marathon Pace.

laura_ac3

Pacing Mule wrote: »

This sounds like a good plan to me. Was half thinking of doing the same. I am not 100% sure I have the required mileage in me to go with the boards plan. There is a more gradual build up mileage wise on the HH novice 2 plan in the first few weeks (as it factors in step back weeks on the LSR) but that does mean you are left a little shorter on the quantity of longer long runs. Tweaking a little extra onto each LSR to get in 2 x 20 milers would be a good compromise between the two.

That's what I'm thinking too. Will leave the cut back weeks as they are but with a bit of tweaking of a few others (nothing by more than an extra mile) it would allow for 2 x 20 and maybe the 18 and 19 still as per the plan or maybe just 2 x 18. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me if planned this far in advance but Ososlo or anyone else please shout if I'm talking crazy

Darren 83

menoscemo wrote: »

Ah no, I'm doing 1:50. Claralara is pacing 1:45 with her chief hanger on :P.

@Darren +1 on Ososlo's advice. If you can't run 13.1 at MP now you certainly won't be running that pace for 26.2 in a few months.
The pace you 'can' run 13.1 at by definition is your Half Marathon Pace, not your Marathon Pace.

I'm following the novice 2 plan, aiming for under 4 hours, pace runs dont go near 13.1 max I think is 8, am I overdoing it?

Ososlo

laura_ac3 wrote: »

That's what I'm thinking too. Will leave the cut back weeks as they are but with a bit of tweaking of a few others (nothing by more than an extra mile) it would allow for 2 x 20 and maybe the 18 and 19 still as per the plan or maybe just 2 x 18. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me if planned this far in advance but Ososlo or anyone else please shout if I'm talking crazy

not crazy at all. All sounds reasonable to me. Tweaking by a mile or two is no big deal.

menoscemo

Darren 83 wrote: »

I'm following the novice 2 plan, aiming for under 4 hours, pace runs dont go near 13.1 max I think is 8, am I overdoing it?

I'm not familiar with the plan. Is there a half Marathon in that plan? If so race the HM at clontarf and adjust your plan accordingly.
If you enter a race I say just race it. Clontarf is about 14/15 weeks out from DCM so I say just race it and make sure you run very easy the week after to recover.

Racing a Half Marathon later in the plan will compromise your training more in that it will eat into important training runs, but 14/15 weeks out it's not a problem. If you are to have a realistic chance of sub 4 I'd say you need to be able to run sub 1:50 HM at a minimum.

laura_ac3

Ososlo wrote: »

not crazy at all. All sounds reasonable to me. Tweaking by a mile or two is no big deal.

Good to hear! Being a passenger on a long drive to west cork from Dublin on a Friday night has given me plenty of time to consider my various options... I'd say Mr. Ac3 is delighted, he's been able to listen to his podcasts in peace for once!

Ososlo

laura_ac3 wrote: »

Good to hear! Being a passenger on a long drive to west cork from Dublin on a Friday night has given me plenty of time to consider my various options... I'd say Mr. Ac3 is delighted, he's been able to listen to his podcasts in peace for once!

lol, it'll be all marathon talk for the next few months so he'd best have some good podcasts lined up until November:D

Darren 83

menoscemo wrote: »

I'm not familiar with the plan. Is there a half Marathon in that plan? If so race the HM at clontarf and adjust your plan accordingly.
If you enter a race I say just race it. Clontarf is about 14/15 weeks out from DCM so I say just race it and make sure you run very easy the week after to recover.

Racing a Half Marathon later in the plan will compromise your training more in that it will eat into important training runs, but 14/15 weeks out it's not a problem. If you are to have a realistic chance of sub 4 I'd say you need to be able to run sub 1:50 HM at a minimum.

There is a half marathon in the plan, I am a bit ahead with the plan for injury/sickness.

AuldManKing

I'm just wondering if the novices know how lucky they are having the great Meno looking in and giving advice.

Thats the strange thing about boards.ie - you just dont know who you are taking advice from - but in this case Meno is one of the most experienced here & gives great advice.

(he just doesn't heed his own )

Pacing Mule

menoscemo wrote: »

I'm not familiar with the plan. Is there a half Marathon in that plan? If so race the HM at clontarf and adjust your plan accordingly.
If you enter a race I say just race it. Clontarf is about 14/15 weeks out from DCM so I say just race it and make sure you run very easy the week after to recover.

Racing a Half Marathon later in the plan will compromise your training more in that it will eat into important training runs, but 14/15 weeks out it's not a problem. If you are to have a realistic chance of sub 4 I'd say you need to be able to run sub 1:50 HM at a minimum.

On that subject ....

Would you consider it necessary to be able to hit that time now for the hm or be capable of it at the time of the marathon itself. Or would it be somewhere inbetween ?

menoscemo

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm just wondering if the novices know how lucky they are having the great Meno looking in and giving advice.

Thats the strange thing about boards.ie - you just dont know who you are taking advice from - but in this case Meno is one of the most experienced here & gives great advice.

aww shucks (I deleted the last part btw ). The great AMK is here now so I am backing away I Have had hardly any boards all week with work so having an overload tonight.

In fairness ososlo is giving great advice on this thread, almost everything I have said tonight she has posted simultaneously.

Ososlo

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm just wondering if the novices know how lucky they are having the great Meno looking in and giving advice.

Thats the strange thing about boards.ie - you just dont know who you are taking advice from - but in this case Meno is one of the most experienced here & gives great advice.

(he just doesn't heed his own )

+1. There's an opening for another glamorous assistant position if he's interested:P
Or maybe it's just a 'one night only' occurrence. Get your questions in quick folks!

menoscemo

Pacing Mule wrote: »

On that subject ....

Would you consider it necessary to be able to hit that time now for the hm or be capable of it at the time of the marathon itself. Or would it be somewhere inbetween ?

Ok, last one

You'd definitely want to be capable of a decent HM well in advance of the marathon otherwise you'll be playing catch up trying to improve your HM pace while building up 26.2 mile endurance. That's a difficult ask. Besides there's no point racing a HM the week before the marathon to make sure you are in XYZ marathon shape. That might be a little counterproductive

Ideally you should be capable of hitting an equivalent HM time 8-15 weeks out. The closer the HM gets to the big race itself the more it compromises marathon training. That's why you'll see a lot of more experienced runner doing HM's 4-6 weeks out but doing them at MP as part of a longer run (with maybe a 6-7 mile easy warm up)