DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

Ososlo

adrian522 wrote: »

I don't think measuring your LSR, or any run purley on HR is a good idea.

Too many external factors can influence your heart rate from the weather to how you feel to how much running you have done recently to how accurate your HR monitor is.

I think monitoring your HR can be hugely beneficial but I would pace myself based purely off heart rate.

That's just me though.

I think if you have an accurate max and are working at your 'real' easy pace (sub 75 or 70% of max) then it's very beneficial for marathon training. I did all my marathon training by heart rate last year and ran on average 50 miles per week from May to the beginning of October. I couldn't have handled that mileage if I was working too hard.
If the weather was warmer or if I was very tired, then my heart rate would be higher, so I would still be working to the correct effort (slower).
When people are running by the watch, they're trying to hit a certain pace regardless of conditions/how they're feeling so might be working too hard.
I think it's a good approach once the person has a very accurate max (gained through a few fitness tests or a few races) and has worked out efforts accordingly.

adrian522

Well I disagree, your HR can be artificially increased or decreased or reported incorrectly for a whole host of reasons meaning you would be running at the wrong pace or wrong effort or whatever.

I don't understand how running slower is somehow the correct effort.

Being a slave to a particular pace or HR is never a good thing in my opinion.

Ososlo

adrian522 wrote: »

Well I disagree, your HR can be artificially increased or decreased or reported incorrectly for a whole host of reasons meaning you would be running at the wrong pace or wrong effort or whatever.

I don't understand how running slower is somehow the correct effort.

Being a slave to a particular pace or HR is never a good thing in my opinion.

If you're tired/hungover/it's hot then your resting heart rate may be higher - therefore your running heart rate is higher. If you're running for instance at 135bpm on a cool day, you might run generally at 10 min/mile pace. If it's hot/you're hungover/tired then at the same pace, your heart rate may be higher. But you don't run to the higher heart rate, you run to the easy heart rate, which might mean 10:40 or 11 min/mile.
I did this for every single run last year so do have a little knowledge about it and was guided very closely in it with someone experienced.
Of course the hr monitor might be acting up on a particular day (I personally didn't have these problems except for the first mile of a run). But one takes those things into account on the day.
Running a lot with a hr monitor makes one really good at judging what's really 'easy' pace or 'recovery' pace if you have a correct max.
Anyways, just my opinion. Of course you're entitled to your own.

adrian522

I've sometimes found the HR monitor reporting high readings while I know in my heart (pardon the intentional pun!) that I am running at an easy conversational pace. In that case I'm more likely to run to feel and keep the easy pace rather than slowing it down just to get the HR reading I was hoping for.

I still take the HR monitor on most runs though.

Jelly Legs

Hi everyone. Week one done, total of 23 miles to include the 5 Mile yesterday. Did it in 44:45 which I was happy with. My last race in the park was a disaster so had set a 45 min target for this one. Did the recovery run this morning nice and easy but legs are still tight and achy so will be spending some quality time with the foam roller

Tigerandahalf

Did a 5k recovery run this evening. It was a splendid evening to be out running. If the summer keeps like this it will be lovely to run. Took the heart rate monitor again. Again I had to slow myself down not to run too fast as the rate was too high. To finish I did 10x5 chinups, 50 pushups, plank for a minute, side planks for 30 seconds each and 15x3 leg ups (not sure if that is right name). This is the most I have done in a core strengthening session so I am progressively getting stronger. Feeling good now this evening, beer in hand watching the soccer.

Laois_Man

Having not run since a 3 miler last Tuesday, my leg is feeling OK at the moment...hoping it will still feel OK after a mile or two running!

No LSRs for the last 2 weekends in a row now so I am starting to get very pissed off. Was going to go back at it last night with a slow 3 miles but had a terrible migraine all day - couldn't even do my resistance band training or AIS. Still have a trace of the migraine this morning but if it clears up, I'll go this evening. Fingers crossed there'll be no pain at all. If there's even a bit of discomfort/pain, it'll probably mean I have to take another few days off rather than forcing it and ending up back at square one again. (See, idiots can learn from mistakes sometimes)

vitani

vitani wrote: »

2.4 very easy recovery miles for me following yesterday's LSR. Going to follow the plan as outlined for Week 1 this week, but take Thursday at a recovery pace, and then do the 5 mile race on Saturday with at least a 1 mile w/u and c/d. I don't think I'm on track for a PB on Saturday - the end of that route in the Phoenix Park is my racing nemesis - but I'll give it my best shot. Sorry everyone, but I'm also crossing my fingers for rain on Saturday.

I wanted rain but that shower afterwards was something else... Can feel myself coming down with the beginnings of a cold today. Hopefully I can run it out over the next few days.

Firedance

Happy enough with week one, got out running 5 days low mileage & easy enough pace except for the club session on Thursday and Saturday's run where I pushed a bit more, finding the recovery pace difficult to get the hang of I seem to have to change the way I run to slow down to recovery pace which just shows I've never truly done them before.... Ended up in AK ashtown yesterday eve and bought new runners and mini grid foam roller/torture device which seems to take foam rolling to a whole new level of pain! looking forward to trying the new runners for this evenings run. Hope we all have a injury/pain free week 2.

Pacing Mule

Coming back from a lay off attempting to clear up a long term niggly injury (unsuccessful I may add !) so mileage last week and over next few weeks will be lower than the plan whilst I gradually catch up.

frash

Just in from 5 miles & was going to update the tracker but the names are gone for the 2nd week.

SeanPuddin

Haven't posted here in a while might keep it a weekly post. Sorry if this is long winded but need stuff off my chest.

Been under an awful lot of pressure lately with really serious crap involving court rooms, interviews, job hunting, moving to a new city. I had a week on the smokes, scary how fast I was chuffing away 20 a day again. It was only 5 days of smoking but by feck I'm back to square one with my breathing and heart rate.

Tuesday's easy 3miles was the day I stopped smoking again. So be it though I made it through 22 miles this week. I'm far less stressed out running. The boards.ie plan is really brilliant, I felt like Mo Farah on the 5x20 second sprints after 3 miles.

Best of luck to all in week 2.

JohnDozer

frash wrote: »

Just in from 5 miles & was going to update the tracker but the names are gone for the 2nd week.

I noticed that too, was going to put in just my own name, but then I thought that some Higher Power might be cutting and pasting the names in... so I didnt! I also dread f*@king up the Google Doc so I left well enough alone to see what happens....

Dub13

I did 17k this morning 5k at MP, a great day out there for running. I will taper off for the rest of the week with the Clontarf half on Saturday. Thinking of doing a slow 10k tomorrow, and another very slow 7/10k on Wednesday and then rest Thursday & Friday.

17k Run 5k @ MP
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/531671575

Darren 83

Dub13 wrote: »

I did 17k this morning 5k at MP, a great day out there for running. I will taper off for the rest of the week with the Clontarf half on Saturday. Thinking of doing a slow 10k tomorrow, and another very slow 7/10k on Wednesday and then rest Thursday & Friday.

17k Run 5k @ MP
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/531671575

what's your target for clontarf?

Dub13

Darren 83 wrote: »

what's your target for clontarf?

My PB for the half is 1:48, I plan to go out with the 1:45 pacer and see how it goes.

Darren 83

Dub13 wrote: »

My PB for the half is 1:48, I plan to go out with the 1:45 pacer and see how it goes.

No bother to you with the sessions you post here, have you done Clontarf before

Dub13

Darren 83 wrote: »

No bother to you with the sessions you post here, have you done Clontarf before

Yes it was my first ever half back in November, that time I was hoping for under 2 hour's. Went out with the 1:50 pacer and was grand till I lost him about the 19k mark, I did not have the leg's. I finished it in 1:51 which I was over the moon with but I was a bit disappointed to lose the pacer so close to the end.

Darren 83

Hoping to hit get under 1:50, would there be any point taking water I know there are four stations are they well stocked

Dub13

Darren 83 wrote: »

Hoping to hit get under 1:50, would there be any point taking water I know there are four stations are they well stocked

It's up to yourself but I never run with water, the stations are grand have a look at the map and see were they are as this will help.

Ososlo

frash wrote: »

Just in from 5 miles & was going to update the tracker but the names are gone for the 2nd week.

Sorry guys, my mistake. Any problems let me know but I think it's all adding up now.

JohnDozer

Week One most definitely down and really enjoying the experience of the plan overall and think I've picked one to suit me. Figuring a few things out so far as well, I hit the miles I wanted to hit and managed to do the workouts as prescribed. Learning how to set up the workouts on the Garmin was as much of a challenge as anything else. In saying that, sitting down this morning and trying to plan the week ahead and try and move runs and other stuff around is testing too. Work and other stuff means any longer stuff on Tuesday or Thursday this week is out, so I had to try and move workouts. It is here I realise I have no idea how much of an overall impact this has on the plan when you start moving stuff around. I had originally moved Tuesday workout to today, and Thursdays to Wednesday. I then realised I hadn't the workout on the Garmin so brought Thursday forward to today as I couldnt figure out how I might do it 'on the fly'. I have no idea if this has an impact or not...

I'm also seeing short races (5k/4mile) all over the place that are tempting me and I would like to do, but I know I'm risking overdoing it too... Don't short races offer some benefit if they can be inserted instead of a workout? What I need to figure out is which ones can be dropped for a race and which ones shouldnt! So much to figure out its intimidating...

Lastly, I really really need to learn how to slow down at least 2 runs a week... I've one LSR each week in the plan, which I know I can can keep at proper LSR pace. There is also 2 workouts that have paces already prescribed so I'm ok there. The other 3/4 runs I normally run at an easy pace, but I don't think they're slow enough to constitute recovery. This is down to a few different things such as trying to run at lunch which places time limits. I need to discipline myself to slow 2 runs down but am yet to figure out how to do it. I'm not a fast runner by any stretch but I do enjoy running what feels like fast to me, much much more than having to be always conscious of slowing it down, even though I know its wrong to do it. I would appreciate all thoughts and advice on any of the above!

I'm getting royally sucked into the plan, calculating paces, reading logs and all other info.... I think I may be developing a full-scale problematic addiction... I presume I'm not alone in this

Ososlo

JohnDozer wrote: »

Week One most definitely down and really enjoying the experience of the plan overall and think I've picked one to suit me. Figuring a few things out so far as well, I hit the miles I wanted to hit and managed to do the workouts as prescribed. Learning how to set up the workouts on the Garmin was as much of a challenge as anything else. In saying that, sitting down this morning and trying to plan the week ahead and try and move runs and other stuff around is testing too. Work and other stuff means any longer stuff on Tuesday or Thursday this week is out, so I had to try and move workouts. It is here I realise I have no idea how much of an overall impact this has on the plan when you start moving stuff around. I had originally moved Tuesday workout to today, and Thursdays to Wednesday. I then realised I hadn't the workout on the Garmin so brought Thursday forward to today as I couldnt figure out how I might do it 'on the fly'. I have no idea if this has an impact or not...
No problem moving sessions around the place as long as you have adequate recovery between harder workouts imo (lsr/speedwork).

I'm also seeing short races (5k/4mile) all over the place that are tempting me and I would like to do, but I know I'm risking overdoing it too... Don't short races offer some benefit if they can be inserted instead of a workout? What I need to figure out is which ones can be dropped for a race and which ones shouldnt! So much to figure out its intimidating...
Yes but not too often. Maybe give us a specific example of the type of workout and what race you'd like to replace it with.

Lastly, I really really need to learn how to slow down at least 2 runs a week... I've one LSR each week in the plan, which I know I can can keep at proper LSR pace. There is also 2 workouts that have paces already prescribed so I'm ok there. The other 3/4 runs I normally run at an easy pace, but I don't think they're slow enough to constitute recovery. This is down to a few different things such as trying to run at lunch which places time limits. I need to discipline myself to slow 2 runs down but am yet to figure out how to do it. I'm not a fast runner by any stretch but I do enjoy running what feels like fast to me, much much more than having to be always conscious of slowing it down, even though I know its wrong to do it. I would appreciate all thoughts and advice on any of the above!
If you run the easy/recovery stuff at the right easy effort, then you'll be fresher for the harder stuff (lsr, speed/pacework). If you run them too hard, you won't be rested enough to run the harder stuff (lsr, speed work etc) to the best of your ability as you may be slightly fatigued. Also, if you're trying to fit in a run in a lunch break or whatever, set out to run for a certain amount of time, and not a specific amount of miles so you're under less pressure to run faster. Think of the recovery/easy runs as the time when your body is giving itself the chance to adapt to all the wonderful training you've done in the previous week. Easy runs easy, hard runs hard.

I'm getting royally sucked into the plan, calculating paces, reading logs and all other info.... I think I may be developing a full-scale problematic addiction... I presume I'm not alone in this No you're not alone. But you're in the correct place to feed your addiction. It's part of who you are now, so just accept it

some thoughts in response to your queries in bold above John.

gingersnap

Only got two runs in last week. Did 8 miles on Saturday and got caught in the rain. At one point I couldn't even see where I was going, it was lashing so bad!
Plan to get 4-5 miles in tomorrow and then I'll rest until Clontarf on Saturday.
Feeling a bit nervous about the half. I thought I would train up to 13 miles LSR before it but on my longest run my legs just died on me at about 11 - 12 miles and I had to walk. Fingers crossed the atmosphere and adrenaline will keep me going on Saturday.

Ososlo

gingersnap wrote: »

Only got two runs in last week. Did 8 miles on Saturday and got caught in the rain. At one point I couldn't even see where I was going, it was lashing so bad!
Plan to get 4-5 miles in tomorrow and then I'll rest until Clontarf on Saturday.
Feeling a bit nervous about the half. I thought I would train up to 13 miles LSR before it but on my longest run my legs just died on me at about 11 - 12 miles and I had to walk. Fingers crossed the atmosphere and adrenaline will keep me going on Saturday.

I wouldn't worry about not having covered the full half distance before the race. I did similar to you (11 miles I think) before my first half and the distance wasn't a problem on the day. Just pace yourself correctly (don't start out too fast) and you'll be fine.
Looking forward to reading all about it on Saturday! Make sure you take it fairly handy tomorrow and no harm getting out for 2 or 3 recovery paced miles on Thursday if you wanted. Do what feels most comfortable for yourself.

JohnDozer

@Ososlo... Thanks for the response, in relation to the replacing a workout with a race, next week has a workout which contains 4 X 1 mile @ MP with 3 mins recovery on Tuesday. There is a 4 mile race on Monday. If I did this with a 2 mile warm up and cool down would it be of similar benefit? 4 mile pace would be about 45 - 60 secs below PMP. I would do my LSR Saturday morning early so have 60 hours recovery and have another easy day on Tuesday so I should be on recovery wise?

In relation to easy runs, I'm doing them all at 45 seconds below MP. Is this ok or should be looking to go closer to the 90 as recommended in the 45 - 90 second window with a few of them?

Ososlo

JohnDozer wrote: »

@Ososlo... Thanks for the response, in relation to the replacing a workout with a race, next week has a workout which contains 4 X 1 mile @ MP with 3 mins recovery on Tuesday. There is a 4 mile race on Monday. If I did this with a 2 mile warm up and cool down would it be of similar benefit? 4 mile pace would be about 45 - 60 secs below PMP. I would do my LSR Saturday morning early so have 60 hours recovery and have another easy day on Tuesday so I should be on recovery wise?

I don't know if would be similar benefit. I'll leave that one to someone more knowledgeable. You'll be working an awful lot harder for that race than that session. Maybe AMK or Meno or someone can help out with that. Even though you'll be working harder it might still fit in well with your plan even though it's a completely different session. I wouldn't see any harm in doing the odd race instead of a mp session. I'd welcome imput from others on that though.
The 60 hours recovery sounds absolutely fine.

JohnDozer wrote: »

In relation to easy runs, I'm doing them all at 45 seconds below MP. Is this ok or should be looking to go closer to the 90 as recommended in the 45 - 90 second window with a few of them?

To be honest with you, I'd do them slower. I'd do easy runs over a minute slower than mp and as for recovery runs, well, you can't do them slowly enough imo. They should be like a fast walk really and you shouldn't concern yourself with pace at all. Try and do them on grass if possible, forget the watch and concentrate on maintaining good running form whilst taking it very easy. Yeah, something that feels like 90 secs slower would be fine.

neilthefunkeone

4.25 miles on my lunch break today.. got home and out for 50k on the bike.. was lovely up wicklow mountain way.. ill give myself a break tomorrow and back out wed and thurs.

anyone run along the canal.. from inchicore out towards adamstown? What's it like for surface? Suitable to cycle on too as the gf cycles along beside me for long runs!

Laois_Man

3.78 Miles

No pain

Wooohooo

Now feckin STAY THAT WAY!!!!!

frash

neilthefunkeone wrote: »

anyone run along the canal.. from inchicore out towards adamstown? What's it like for surface? Suitable to cycle on too as the gf cycles along beside me for long runs!

Have ran from Inchicore to out past Clondalkin.
Surface is fine - not sure what it's called but it's grand for running on.

Watch out for the rats crossing the path though.