DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

scheister

is their anyone in here following the DCM training plan that was laid out in the last Irish runner?

bucketybuck

It has been pointed out to me that I made a mistake when drawing up my training plan, based on the Higdon novice plan I am still on week 2 when I should have been on week 3! :pac:

If I stick with the current plan I will have the 32 km run on the 11th October, 19km run on 18th, and the Marathon will be the following weekend. The question is, is this enough rest time or tapering time after the 32km run?

Or, should I skip forward a week now? I was expecting the 8km run next weekend but it wouldn't really be an issue to make it the 14km run instead. I don't really want to skip weeks, but will the missing week of tapered running hurt me come the actual marathon?

Dub13

Looking for advice for next week as I am running the Swords 10k on Sunday on July 20th.

I am doing 20k LSR later this evening, then a handy enough recovery run tomorrow. Here is what the BAA plan has me down for next week..

Monday Rest Day - 0 to 3 miles
Tuesday Interval - 7 to 9 total. 3 x (800m-600m-600m) at 5K pace, 90 seconds recovery, 4 minutes between sets.
Wednesday Distance - 4 to 7 miles
Thursday Tempo - 7 to 9, with 2 x 15 minutes in the middle at marathon pace, 5 minutes recovery.
Friday Distance - 4 to 7 miles
Saturday Distance - 2 to 5 miles
Sunday MLR - 10 to 12 miles, easy pace

I am off work Monday so will not rest as it would be a wasted day. I am thinking about doing the plan as is up to Thursday, then on Friday do the 10 to 12 miles and rest Sat. Race Sun and sure Mon is a rest day anyway the following week. Any thoughts..?

ecoli

Dub13 wrote: »

Looking for advice for next week as I am running the Swords 10k on Sunday.

I am doing 20k LSR later this evening, then a handy enough recovery run tomorrow. Here is what the BAA plan has me down for next week..

Monday Rest Day - 0 to 3 miles
Tuesday Interval - 7 to 9 total. 3 x (800m-600m-600m) at 5K pace, 90 seconds recovery, 4 minutes between sets.
Wednesday Distance - 4 to 7 miles
Thursday Tempo - 7 to 9, with 2 x 15 minutes in the middle at marathon pace, 5 minutes recovery.
Friday Distance - 4 to 7 miles
Saturday Distance - 2 to 5 miles
Sunday MLR - 10 to 12 miles, easy pace

I am thinking about doing the plan as is up to Thursday, then on Friday do the 10 to 12 miles and rest Sat. Race Sun and sure Mon is a rest day anyway the following week. Any thoughts..?

Why not push the long run to monday? alot of people tend to work off 7 day cycles for training but personally I find there is much more to be gained by looking at training in 10 day - 2 week blocks being able to adjust accordingly.

Also with the race effort you will get a good hard stimulus so perhaps drop the 5k paced session and plan the week something like this

Monday Rest Day - 0 to 3 miles
Tuesday Interval - Tempo - 7 to 9, with 2 x 15 minutes in the middle at marathon,5 minutes recovery.
Wednesday Distance - 4 to 7 miles
Thursday 4 to 7 miles easy
Friday Distance - 2-5 miles easy
Saturday Distance - 0 to 3 miles recovery
Sunday Race
Monday MLR - 10 to 12 miles, easy pace
Tuesday OFF

Takes a bit of jiggling but you can get in the work or if you struggle with recovery after the Race push the LR to Tuesday and take the day off

Dub13

ecoli wrote: »

Why not push the long run to monday?

That's something I will consider, it did not even come into my head to do the LSR the day after racing. With me been off work this coming Monday I will definitely be doing something that day as otherwise it would be a wasted day, So I was thinking of just pulling back the plan by a day next week and doing something like this....

Monday Interval - 7 to 9 total. 3 x (800m-600m-600m) at 5K pace, 90 seconds recovery, 4 minutes between sets
Tuesday 4 to 7 miles
Wednesday 7 to 9, with 2 x 15 minutes in the middle at marathon pace, 5 minutes recovery
Thursday 2 to 5 miles
Friday 10 to 12 miles, easy pace
Sat Rest or very light run.
Sun Swords 10k

menoscemo

Dub13 wrote: »

That's something I will consider, it did not even come into my head to do the LSR the day after racing. With me been off work this coming Monday I will definitely be doing something that day as otherwise it would be a wasted day, So I was thinking of just pulling back the plan by a day next week and doing something like this....

Monday Interval - 7 to 9 total. 3 x (800m-600m-600m) at 5K pace, 90 seconds recovery, 4 minutes between sets
Tuesday 4 to 7 miles
Wednesday 7 to 9, with 2 x 15 minutes in the middle at marathon pace, 5 minutes recovery
Thursday 2 to 5 miles
Friday 10 to 12 miles, easy pace
Sat Rest or very light run.
Sun Swords 10k

2 sessions, 1 long run and a 10k race is way too much to cram into a 7 day period IMO.
There is no 10k race in your plan so if you are going to add it in you must ditch 1 or even both the sessions. You can't just add hard races into the plan and try to do all the other hard runs as well.

As AMK is continually saying, races are like mega sessions and your body needs appropriate recovery.

menoscemo

FWIW I would probably add a few miles to the midweek MLR so do it as 10-12 miles with 2 x 15min @ MP. Now you have your LR with MP added

I would ditch the 5k pace session altogether as the 10k race will replace that and more in terms of stimulus. You should be doing at least 1 mile warm up + cool down (possibly 2) so you will be running 8-10 miles for the 10k race anyway (equivalent to your planned MLR in terms of mileage but with 10k of 'speedwork').

All other runs should be easy and I would generally make sure to have at least 2 easy/recovery days after the race.

Ososlo

bucketybuck wrote: »

It has been pointed out to me that I made a mistake when drawing up my training plan, based on the Higdon novice plan I am still on week 2 when I should have been on week 3! :pac:

If I stick with the current plan I will have the 32 km run on the 11th October, 19km run on 18th, and the Marathon will be the following weekend. The question is, is this enough rest time or tapering time after the 32km run?

Or, should I skip forward a week now? I was expecting the 8km run next weekend but it wouldn't really be an issue to make it the 14km run instead. I don't really want to skip weeks, but will the missing week of tapered running hurt me come the actual marathon?

I'd skip forward to Week 3. The taper weeks in October are really important.
If you really don't think it's an issue for you to do 14km next weekend then there really is no problem.

Ososlo

frash wrote: »

Did a 16 mile LSR run today with an average pace of 11:30

I did (probably stupidly) do the first 2 miles at PMP (10:20 min/mile) just to see if I could after the very slow recovery from last week's Clontarf Half.
Towards the end the last 2 miles were 12+ min including a very brief bit of walking

Also took a gel at 10 miles as an experiment - first time taking one with caffeine in it - went fine.

Anyway glad I got the distance in this weekend as there probably won't be a LSR next weekend.
This time next week I'll be on a ferry approaching the Bay of Biscay with 3 kids & a sea-sick wife!

Reverse that strategy the next time and you'll be flying it. If you want to do some pmp miles in the lsr, always keep then towards the end of a run. Always start out very gently.

Ososlo

Nicsx wrote: »

Good point re one of us having a slight 'off' day. Did my recovery run this morning & I might postpone the knee replacements for a while yet. :-)

With regard to the gels - is there any particular brand I should look out for or is it a case of trial & error & just try to find the least disgusting ones? Thanks again.

Great stuff:D
Trial and error with the gels I'm afraid. Your stomach is going to be different to anyone else so you just got to see what suits you personally.
I used Powerbar and found them good from the start. DCM have High 5 on the route but I wouldn't recommend anyone depending on getting these on the day. It's good to know they're there in case you lose yours or aliens come and take them from you on the day:D but don't depend on getting them as they might run out. Bring everything you think you'll need yourself except water.
Whatever gels you try, make sure you can purchase them easily enough. Sometimes you can find a good one that suits but it's a nightmare trying to buy them locally, so consider that too when deciding on what to use on the day. Health food shops and sports shops stock them so check out your local one. No point buying a big load online if they end up not suiting you.
Lucozade sport is available on the day too so good idea getting used to drinking this.

adrian522

Not a great day for me I'm afraid. Knocked out 12 miles but it was a particularly unpleasant experience. I've posted on my log a bit about it but for now I just want to recover and forget about it.

I'm hoping it was just one of those days, as I've run that distance at higher paces many times in the past. I know it was warm today but it wasn't that bad was it?

Ososlo

adrian522 wrote: »

Not a great day for me I'm afraid. Knocked out 12 miles but it was a particularly unpleasant experience. I've posted on my log a bit about it but for now I just want to recover and forget about it.

I'm hoping it was just one of those days, as I've run that distance at higher paces many times in the past. I know it was warm today but it wasn't that bad was it?

It is very humid today so that will have an effect on you. Hopefully it's just a bad day for you.
Wearing the heart rate monitor every day last year taught me a few things about easy paced running. On a very warm or humid day, my pace could be up to 1 min per mile slower than on a cool day. We had a particularly hot summer last year and my paces did increase dramatically for the same effort (75% of max hr) on hot days. When the weather cooled down I was running much faster for the same effort so it can make a big difference.
Keep a close eye on things as I recall you saying you've had a few runs lately that you weren't happy about. Maybe reconsider the plan you're following and if there might be a more suitable one for you. Marathon training for a novice marathon runner doesn't need to be complicated at all. It's really all just about time on your feet and building up the miles and throwing in some mp work to challenge yourself a bit more if you want.

Tigerandahalf

Ososlo wrote: »

I used Powerbar and found them good from the start. DCM have High 5 on the route but I wouldn't recommend anyone depending on getting these on the day. It's good to know they're there in case you lose yours or aliens come and take them from you on the day:D but don't depend on getting them as they might run out. Bring everything you think you'll need yourself except water.
Whatever gels you try, make sure you can purchase them easily enough. Sometimes you can find a good one that suits but it's a nightmare trying to buy them locally, so consider that too when deciding on what to use on the day. Health food shops and sports shops stock them so check out your local one. No point buying a big load online if they end up not suiting you.
Lucozade sport is available on the day too so good idea getting used to drinking this.

If lucozade sport and water are available is there any need to be taking a belt with bottles of electrolyte etc. For me these are just extra weight to carry. I was thinking of taping the energy gels to my arm or something. Do most runners carry some form of belt?

KillianByrne

12m LSR this morning, really enjoyable, probably due to me running it slower than planned, finishing up at 10.05 avg instead of 9.48. Took a gel at 6m and ran with the camelbak which worked well.

I wasn't that pushed at the slow time really, I normally pick things up for the last two miles but finished the run with another lad who looked as if he was struggling to finish his run and we had a great chat on the last leg.

Glass of wine earned now, all in all a good end to a decent running week.

frash

Ososlo wrote: »

Reverse that strategy the next time and you'll be flying it. If you want to do some pmp miles in the lsr, always keep then towards the end of a run. Always start out very gently.

I know that makes more sense but doubt I would have had the PMP in me at that stage.
You're right though, I need to start off slower.

Ososlo

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

If lucozade sport and water are available is there any need to be taking a belt with bottles of electrolyte etc. For me these are just extra weight to carry. I was thinking of taping the energy gels to my arm or something. Do most runners carry some form of belt?

I just wore shorts with lots of pockets for gels and key etc and never bothered with belts. Link to shorts at end of post one.

SeanPuddin

Back on the wagon after missing some key runs. Moving house took 4 or 5 days and really took it out of me, body is still sore.

Went out for the LSR 13 miler after lunch and managed grand, must slow down more though my average pace was 6min/km. All in all I couldn't do it, I only made 11.6 miles. Stopped at a Topaz half way for wine gums (30 seconds). I'm a bit pissed off with the short distance to make up but you can't win them all, still learning my new neighbourhood.

8 cans of Canadian coming up. Hope it stops there!

Laois_Man

14 Mile LSR completed this morning - for once I got to do my LSR on a Saturday morning! Did this on a nearly empty stomach too.

I didn't experience anything that I would call pain during the run. But I did experience a bit of discomfort in the gammy leg a few times. It's in a little bit of pain now though. Seems to be getting worse too. I'll do a bit of stretching work and foam rolling on it in a while.

Pace was good throughout. Every mile except a slow last mile (on purpose) was in the range of 9:49 and 10:23 averaging out at 10:07 for those. I'd like to have felt a bit stronger at the end of it though.

Somewhat happy - but would be ecstatic if I could get this feckin pain to go away and stay away.

Hopefully stepping it up to 15 miles next weekend - Might start trying the energy gels then.

Dub13

menoscemo wrote: »

FWIW I would probably add a few miles to the midweek MLR so do it as 10-12 miles with 2 x 15min @ MP. Now you have your LR with MP added

I would ditch the 5k pace session altogether as the 10k race will replace that and more in terms of stimulus. You should be doing at least 1 mile warm up + cool down (possibly 2) so you will be running 8-10 miles for the 10k race anyway (equivalent to your planned MLR in terms of mileage but with 10k of 'speedwork').

All other runs should be easy and I would generally make sure to have at least 2 easy/recovery days after the race.

Cheers, I agree looking at it now that 2 sessions, 1 long run and a 10k race is way to much. I will do the above so cheers.

denis160

You know when you asked that question ososlo....'do you need to take walking breaks'? Well I said no, but now it seems I'll have to take it back
After 10 weeks of good structured training, I ran my worse half marathon so far and I'm gutted. Best time so far for a half is 1.57, I really thought i'ld have no bother doing that and maybe even a little bit better today, but I just didn't have it in me. I actually added 4 minutes to that and finished after the 2 hours. The course was grand, few hills but they didn't bother me as I've been including hills in all my lsr's, weather was very clamy but I couldn't get myself going for the first half, I walked, nearly cried, walked again but then put me arse in gear & totted on to the finish. On the way around & even coming home in the car I questioned whether i'ld be able for another half never mind a full? But I am, I'm gonna give it a lash anyway, maybe its a good thing that happened, maybe I need to take a step back, look at what i did/didn't do enough & try to make it better. So role on tomorrow for what I know will be a slooooow recovery run and back on the training wagon!
/rant over, thanks for reading
D.

Ososlo

denis160 wrote: »

You know when you asked that question ososlo....'do you need to take walking breaks'? Well I said no, but now it seems I'll have to take it back
After 10 weeks of good structured training, I ran my worse half marathon so far and I'm gutted. Best time so far for a half is 1.57, I really thought i'ld have no bother doing that and maybe even a little bit better today, but I just didn't have it in me. I actually added 4 minutes to that and finished after the 2 hours. The course was grand, few hills but they didn't bother me as I've been including hills in all my lsr's, weather was very clamy but I couldn't get myself going for the first half, I walked, nearly cried, walked again but then put me arse in gear & totted on to the finish. On the way around & even coming home in the car I questioned whether i'ld be able for another half never mind a full? But I am, I'm gonna give it a lash anyway, maybe its a good thing that happened, maybe I need to take a step back, look at what i did/didn't do enough & try to make it better. So role on tomorrow for what I know will be a slooooow recovery run and back on the training wagon!
/rant over, thanks for reading
D.

Sorry to hear that denis but look on the positives today of which there are many.
You were struggling badly in the first half but managed to pick it up and finish in a really decent time. I know it's off your pb, but all things considered it's still a really good effort.
It's great race experience and you'll have learned a lot from today to take with you into the rest of your marathon training and the next few races you do.
Of course you can do a marathon. Race a few more longer distances before the big one and you'll gain lots more racing confidence.
It was very humid today. It won't be as warm or humid at the end of October so it'll be a lot easier.
Did you have a good taper leading up to the race? Why do you think you struggled today yourself?
I hope you recover well and you seem to have a good attitude in that you're back on the wagon straight away again. Run easy now until at least Thursday/Friday and you should be grand for the lsr by the weekend.
Well done on completing a really tough run.

KillianByrne

Don't underestimate the energy sapping effect this weather has on runners, especially novices who haven't the experience others might have. If you're training to pace, don't be afraid to switch to training to effort of your pace is going haywire because you're hot/sweaty/sticky/clammy whatever.

Time on the feet is the benefit, not reaching & holding your set pace. Always be ready to reassess what you're doing while you're doing it.

denis160

Thanks ososlo,
Legs are grand today, does that mean I didn't push myself enough yesterday .
I'ld say yesterday was a combination of a lot if things, not enough sleep in the days leading up to the run (kids'll do that to ya), not eating properly Friday (not to healthy lunch & no tea) & short run on Thurs @ pmp, usually I leave the 2 days before with no running but because I missed a run on Wednesday I felt I had to get out & do it.
Thanks for advice, there's a lesson to be learnt in everything! On & up from here.

laura_ac3

Ahoy all.

Busy week this week so knew there wasn't much wiggle room to swap any runs around if I missed them. Found a couple of them tough.

Sun - rest
Mon- 3 miles. Did this faster than I should have (just shy of 10 min miles). Late home from work and Had a lasagna in the oven so had a 30 minute window for a run...flew out the door shouting instructions at the OH about when to check it etc. think my rush to get back in case he burnt it spurred on my pace. Enjoyed it though,until....

Tues - 6 mile pace run. I hated every minute of this one. Think I was feeling the effects of the previous night. Was so tempted to bail at nearly 3 miles close to home and switch it another day of the plan but kept thinking "no, on the day, you can't bail when you might be struggling through the last 3 miles so suck it up and count it as practice". Had to stop at a shop for a drink and a snack and that seemed to help. I normally know which distances I can get away without carrying water, perhaps it was the heat. My resolve was tested though when with 2 miles to go I saw himself sitting in the car at a red light, thought about jumping in to get a lift home. But instead I gave him a wave and carried on, finished strongly incorporating some hills at the end so happy overall. Managed to keep the pace steady but it was a struggle.

Wed - rest.

Thurs - 11 mile LSR. Set out in the torrential rain but wasn't too bad. Did ok up until mile 8, then started struggling and blew up for the last 2 miles and had to resort to a walk/run strategy to get home. Think I probably went out too fast. Was the same pace as my LSR last week though but maybe I couldn't sustain it for longer this week. Disappointing but will slow down next week and hope it goes better. Woke up that morning not feeling 100% and the OH hasn't been well recently so maybe it was just one of those things.

Friday 3 miles recovery run.

Saturday - technically a rest day. But a significant amount of dodgy dancing was done as I was at a wedding. So between that and wearing heels I'm not sure how rested my legs actually are after it!!!

So a week of ups and downs with good and bad elements but have hopefully taken away a couple of things to work on and remember for the rest of the plan. Happy running everyone....

Dub13

Instead of doing a recovery run today after a 21k LSR yesterday I went for a handy 20k cycle. Its the first time I did this instead of a recovery run and feel great after it. Its something I may doing going forward.

I may also do it on rest days is this a good idea..? Thinking of maybe cycling in and out of work on my running rest days, it would also be about 20k (10k in & another 10k out). Not sure if this is a good idea as the BAA plan has me running 6 days a week as it is so should I rest proper as in doing nothing on days off..?

Ososlo

Dub13 wrote: »

Instead of doing a recovery run today after a 21k LSR yesterday I went for a handy 20k cycle. Its the first time I did this instead of a recovery run and feel great after it. Its something I may doing going forward.

I may also do it on rest days is this a good idea..? Thinking of maybe cycling in and out of work on my running rest days, it would also be about 20k in and out. Not sure if this is a good idea as the BAA plan has me running 6 days a week as it is so should I rest proper as in doing nothing on days off..?

No, I don't think you should do nothing on rest days unless you feel you really need complete rest. Some days you might find you really do need a day off from any exercise so listen to your body carefully for signs.

The cycling shouldn't wear you out though. Keep most of your energy for your running so take it fairly handy with the cycling I'd say. Don't go hell for leather.

vitani

Just over 10 miles today at an average of 9.54 min/miles - probably a bit too fast, tbh, but it didn't take too much out of me. Was able to pick it up to PMP for the last few hundred metres and felt fine. I don't usually bring drinks with me but because it was so close and muggy, took a bottle of Lucozade Sport Lite mixed with water. Good decision. Next step will be to try out some gels.

adrian522

I cycle in and out of work, 20 mins each way, take it very easy, I don't find it impacts my running too much as it is very low intensity.

It is rated as a good cross training activity but I would keep it low intensity or might end up as a Triathlete if you are not careful.

Ososlo

Week 4 here we come! Only 14 weeks to go!:eek: I don't mean to alarm you sorry:D There's ages to go!

Great going around these parts lately. Very impressive racing and long slow runs, and great commitment shown in general.

Things to consider during your working week
This is taken from P&D Marathon Training book but I thought it might be useful for you to read as the training intensifies and the long runs get longer.

Hydration: Always have a water bottle at your workstation, and commit to draining it several times a day.
Calories: Keep healthful foods at work so that you can graze throughout the day as opposed to getting so famished that you hit the vending machines in desperation. [fruit, seeds, nuts, etc are good]
Posture, part I: Make sure your computer screen is at eye level and not too far away so that you don't sit with your head tilted and thrust forward all day.
Posture, part II: Even if your computer is set up ideally, it's still easy to sit with a slumped upper body when you're at a desk all day. Sit with your head, shoulder, and hips aligned, and with a slight curve in your lower back. Good posture at work translates into fewer biomechanics woes on the run.
Move: Get up and walk around at least once an hour to lessen the strain on your lower back and hamstrings. If the smokers in your office are allowed to leave their desks throughout the day to tend to their habit, then you should be able to stand and stretch your legs to tend to yours.

Good luck with the week everyone. Week 4 is up on the tracker.
Keep the questions coming!

laura_ac3

adrian522 wrote: »

I cycle in and out of work, 20 mins each way, take it very easy, I don't find it impacts my running too much as it is very low intensity.

It is rated as a good cross training activity but I would keep it low intensity or might end up as a Triathlete if you are not careful.

Dub13: I also cycle every day as my commute and consider it second nature at this stage so kind of forget about it when noting any exercise I do. It's about 15k total a day. Don't find it impacts on my running either. But I've been doing it for 5 years so something I'm well used to.

Sorry Adrian...meant to reply to the original question from dub13