DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

thehookster

Not a bad weekend for me, did a 3mile fartlek run on friday and that went better than i thought, usually not fond of the fartlek run but really enjoyed this one.

My LSR yesterday was 8 miles, i actually did the first 2.5m with a local group who are training for a half marathon, and then did the rest on my own. i took off a little fast as i got caught at the top of the group which previously has left me suffering towards the end but not yesterday....i kept up the pace for majority of the run which surprised me no end.......really enjoyed it and hopefully i continue to enjoy the runs.

adrian522

Managed 8 miles this evening as part of an Interval session involving 5K pace intervals.

Went very well despite the rain. Didn't feel too tough at all. The day off yesterday did me a lot of good I think. A few easy miles planned for tomorrow.

Laois_Man

My PMP is 9 minute miles (I hope) but with the injury that wont fully feck off, that pace seems to give me pain at the moment so I am trying to slow it down and find a pace for myself that doesn't cause pain - just for 3 weeks or so and then maybe try 9:00 miles again after that. So last night I did 5 miles at 9:30 pace - and afterwards there was a tiny bit of pain. Might slow the PMP runs down again another tiny bit for a while and see how it goes. And maybe then try 9 minutes again. It seems to be the pace that causes issues - but I ran a 10K at under 8 minutes per mile pace recently with no issues at all during the race or in the training before it or for a long while after it

I had 4 miles on my plan for last night but I felt good and went to 5.
Could have gone further but held back.
Do others do extra miles much?
Am I needlessly denying myself extra preparation by holding back?
I'm thinking there's maybe not enough miles on my plan for the weekdays!

laura_ac3

Laois_Man wrote: »

Could have gone further but held back.
Do others do extra miles much?
Am I needlessly denying myself extra preparation by holding back?
I'm thinking there's maybe not enough miles on my plan for the weekdays!

I don't do extra miles. I tweaked the plan a bit at the start to push some of the long runs out by a mile so I can get an extra 20 mile in as a compromise between my hhn2 plan and the boards one in terms of lsrs. I ran it past here and got an ok for it.

But I wouldn't be pushing myself by adding extra miles randomly even when I feel fresh on a run. I'm trying the trust in the plan approach and the getting to the start line is half the battle thing! Maybe everyone is different and I'm sure the wise heads here can comment on the wisdom of it but for me personally that's what I'm doing as I'm a novice to this marathon lark and not chasing a world beating time.

Ososlo

Laois_Man wrote: »

My PMP is 9 minute miles (I hope) but with the injury that wont fully feck off, that pace seems to give me pain at the moment so I am trying to slow it down and find a pace for myself that doesn't cause pain - just for 3 weeks or so and then maybe try 9:00 miles again after that. So last night I did 5 miles at 9:30 pace - and afterwards there was a tiny bit of pain. Might slow the PMP runs down again another tiny bit for a while and see how it goes. And maybe then try 9 minutes again. It seems to be the pace that causes issues - but I ran a 10K at under 8 minutes per mile pace recently with no issues at all during the race or in the training before it or for a long while after it

I had 4 miles on my plan for last night but I felt good and went to 5.
Could have gone further but held back.
Do others do extra miles much?
Am I needlessly denying myself extra preparation by holding back?
I'm thinking there's maybe not enough miles on my plan for the weekdays!

I think the Number 1 priority for you Laois_Man is to establish a pattern of 'no pain' running - whatever pace you're running at. That should be your sole focus really at the moment and to hold back on the pace as you're doing.
No harm doing an extra slow mile or two here and there if it's not causing you any pain but don't increase too dramatically. You want to save most of your energies for the long slow run as it's the most important run of the week.
What plan are you following? Does one of the mid-week runs get progressively longer so it's a medium-long run?

Laois_Man

Ososlo wrote: »

I think the Number 1 priority for you Laois_Man is to establish a pattern of 'no pain' running - whatever pace you're running at. That should be your sole focus really at the moment and to hold back on the pace as you're doing.
No harm doing an extra slow mile or two here and there if it's not causing you any pain but don't increase too dramatically. You want to save most of your energies for the long slow run as it's the most important run of the week.
What plan are you following? Does one of the mid-week runs get progressively longer so it's a medium-long run?

Well, I am following HHN2 but because my LSR was already up to 13.1 miles before the plan started, I fecked around with it coz I didn't want to have my LSR being 55% to 60% of my weekly mileage which is what it would have been...so I have already added extra miles to the weekdays to bring that percentage down - my 14 mile LSR last Saturday still wasn't that far off 50% of my weekly total (even counting in the quickly aborted 4 mile run on Thursday) which is another reason why I am thinking there's not enough miles on my weekday runs as I certainly don't want to be reducing my LSR distances.

EDIT: Yeah my Wednesday run gets progressively longer but never goes over 10 miles even on weeks 14/15

Ososlo

Laois_Man wrote: »

Well, I am following HHN2 but because my LSR was already up to 13.1 miles before the plan started, I fecked around with it coz I didn't want to have my LSR being 55% to 60% of my weekly mileage which is what it would have been...so I have already added extra miles to the weekdays to bring that percentage down - my 14 mile LSR last Saturday still wasn't that far off 50% of my weekly total (even counting in the aborted 4 mile run in Thursday) which is another reason why I am thinking there's not enough miles on my weekday runs as I certainly don't want to be reducing my LSR distances.

Well if you really don't think you're getting enough weekly miles in and you're happy sticking with that plan in the main, then I don't see any problem tweaking it a bit to add on a few but I'd keep any extras as easy miles, especially with your potential injury worries and keep a close eye on things.

RedRunner

Ososlo wrote: »

I think the Number 1 priority for you Laois_Man is to establish a pattern of 'no pain' running - whatever pace you're running at.

You took the words right out of my mouth!...so to speak.;)

I'd forget about paces and get back running without pain, even if that means enforced rest. You may think it's ok in training at a certain pace but that is not a good predictor for marathon day. You could be causing a bigger problem to develop and long term could end up being out for a long time and it would be very difficult to predict at this stage whether you will get through DCM at a certain "pain-tolerant" pace. That goes for even the HM attempt if that is your fall back plan.

Laois_Man

RedRunner wrote: »

You took the words right out of my mouth!...so to speak.;)

I'd forget about paces and get back running without pain, even if that means enforced rest. You may think it's ok in training at a certain pace but that is not a good predictor for marathon day. You could be causing a bigger problem to develop and long term could end up being out for a long time and it would be very difficult to predict at this stage whether you will get through DCM at a certain "pain-tolerant" pace. That goes for even the HM attempt if that is your fall back plan.

Very good advice. Thanks so much. That's been in the back of my mind too....Doing the 26.2, even only at LSR pace on Oct 27th could be big trouble!

With a period of enforced rest, I'd fear I'd have to throw my hat at it altogether. The pain is only a niggle right now, so I think I'll stay going but at no more than 9:45 pace at most (and rarely even that fast) and decide at the end of the first week of August or so how it really is and take it from there. Even if it's OK and completely pain free at that point (and I am confident that it will be), I have the Frank Duffy 10 for August 23rd on my plan and I think that will be the big key pointer for me.

RedRunner

Laois_Man wrote: »

Very good advice. Thanks so much. That's been in the back of my mind too....Doing the 26.2, even only at LSR pace on Oct 27th could be big trouble!

With a period of enforced rest, I'd fear I'd have to throw my hat at it altogether. The pain is only a niggle right now, so I think I'll stay going but at no more than 9:45 pace at most (and rarely even that fast) and decide at the end of the first week of August or so how it really is and take it from there. Even if it's OK and completely pain free at that point (and I am confident that it will be), I have the Frank Duffy 10 for August 23rd on my plan and I think that will be the big key pointer for me.

I hear ya. I often ignored my own advice and others advice and paid for it in the end. I've been in your position many a time so I appreciate you are best placed to understand the problem and it's severity and I assume you've sought professional advice too. If it is only a niggle then I hope it clears up soon. I usually have a list of niggles. I wouldn't feel normal without them at this stage :-)

adrian522

7 Easy miles done tonight.

Very nice run, pace was 9:49 m/m. HR was 145BPM or 77% of Max which is what I expect from an easy run. Hopefully I'll have many more runs like tonight and few enough like last Saturday's!

JohnDozer

Nice 7ish miler tonight too... Chose a hilly enough route, first four up and then three down so kept it nice and steady and the last three were very enjoyable. Just a 5k easy run yesterday as the calf muscles were letting me know they had a tough weekend! Moved around the workouts on the plan a bit this week to allow an extra easyish day as a result... Might tackle the intervals tomorrow when I know how I feel. I find these the most intimidating, I can handle a run where I know what pace I'm keeping on average throughout the run. Changing up and down the gears during a run is new territory so will take a bit of getting used to!

Ososlo

JohnDozer wrote: »

Nice 7ish miler tonight too... Chose a hilly enough route, first four up and then three down so kept it nice and steady and the last three were very enjoyable. Just a 5k easy run yesterday as the calf muscles were letting me know they had a tough weekend! Moved around the workouts on the plan a bit this week to allow an extra easyish day as a result... Might tackle the intervals tomorrow when I know how I feel. I find these the most intimidating, I can handle a run where I know what pace I'm keeping on average throughout the run. Changing up and down the gears during a run is new territory so will take a bit of getting used to!

Enjoy and report back:D

SeanPuddin

Anyone know a 13 miles run near or in Rosscarbery, Cork? Thinking in the owenahincha direction...

Ososlo

Refuelling after a lsr/race/hard workout

Not sure if we covered this already, we probably did, but just in case...

In order to recover well from a long run or race or any kind of harder workout, you need to refuel with some good carbs and protein within 20 mins of finishing your run. This is very important as the long runs get longer. So have a snack in the car or back home quickly and try to have a decent meal within an hour or so.
Some ideas for quick handy post-running snacks:

Banana & drink of milk
Sandwich with meat, fish, cheese or egg
Rice cakes with hummus
Smoothie with yogurt and banana
Chocolate milk
And of course, lots of water!

Anyone doing Fingal at the weekend, obviously don't do your lsr on top of that! Do 1-2 very easy/recovery effort warm up miles with a few strides, the race, and a few cool down miles and you're sorted with your lsr for the week. Take it easy in the days leading up to the race to ensure you're nice and fresh and give it your best shot!

JohnDozer

Ososlo wrote: »

Enjoy and report back:D

Won't I be doing them wrong if that happens??? :-)

Ososlo

JohnDozer wrote: »

Won't I be doing them wrong if that happens??? :-)

Fair point;) You'll enjoy having done them though!

adrian522

Ososlo wrote: »

Refuelling after a lsr/race/hard workout

Not sure if we covered this already, we probably did, but just in case...

In order to recover well from a long run or race or any kind of harder workout, you need to refuel with some good carbs and protein within 20 mins of finishing your run. This is very important as the long runs get longer. So have a snack in the car or back home quickly and try to have a decent meal within an hour or so.
Some ideas for quick handy post-running snacks:

Banana & drink of milk
Sandwich with meat, fish, cheese or egg
Rice cakes with hummus
Smoothie with yogurt and banana
Chocolate milk
And of course, lots of water!

Anyone doing Fingal at the weekend, obviously don't do your lsr on top of that! Do 1-2 very easy/recovery effort warm up miles with a few strides, the race, and a few cool down miles and you're sorted with your lsr for the week. Take it easy in the days leading up to the race to ensure you're nice and fresh and give it your best shot!

I'm a big fan of post workout smoothies, lots of things that can go in there, as mentioned above, banana, Yoghurt etc are good. I always have some frozen berries or grapes that can go in. Sometimes go with a bi of honey or peanut butter too.

Chocolate milk is a good one too, especially if you are going to be a while before you get home.

laura_ac3

Ososlo wrote: »

Refuelling after a lsr/race/hard workout

Chocolate milk


Anyone doing Fingal at the weekend, obviously don't do your lsr on top of that! Do 1-2 very easy/recovery effort warm up miles with a few strides, the race, and a few cool down miles and you're sorted with your lsr for the week. Take it easy in the days leading up to the race to ensure you're nice and fresh and give it your best shot!

Thanks Ososlo. I keep hearing about chocolate milk from other people in work too. I started trying the strawberry milk after the last few runs....haven't tried the chocolate one yet.

I've been thinking about my week plan with the race on Sunday. My lsr this week is supposed to be 13 miles but weekly cycle I'm working off at the moment finishes on Saturdays. I've been doing my lsrs after work on Fridays and Thursdays the last two weeks for various reasons (weddings etc). I was thinking of dropping one of my short runs this week (3 miles), doing my lsr of 13 miles on Thursday. Then resting Friday and Saturday. I'm resting today as well.

Next weeks plan (due to start Sunday) actually calls for a 6 mile pace run and I was thinking of counting the fingal run as the pace run and not going all out. I don't think I'm likely to be beating last years PB at this point in time. So I was thinking of going out closer to my marathon pace and using it as practice for going out at that pace and not going out too fast in race conditions, atmosphere on the day etc.

Would that be all wrong? Just a thought I was having...open to suggestions and might consider the approach you suggested above.

Ososlo

laura_ac3 wrote: »

I've been thinking about my week plan with the race on Sunday. My lsr this week is supposed to be 13 miles but weekly cycle I'm working off at the moment finishes on Saturdays. I've been doing my lsrs after work on Fridays and Thursdays the last two weeks for various reasons (weddings etc). I was thinking of dropping one of my short runs this week (3 miles), doing my lsr of 13 miles on Thursday. Then resting Friday and Saturday. I'm resting today as well.

Next weeks plan (due to start Sunday) actually calls for a 6 mile pace run and I was thinking of counting the fingal run as the pace run and not going all out. I don't think I'm likely to be beating last years PB at this point in time. So I was thinking of going out closer to my marathon pace and using it as practice for going out at that pace and not going out too fast in race conditions, atmosphere on the day etc.

Would that be all wrong? Just a thought I was having...open to suggestions and might consider the approach you suggested above.

It's a race and I think you should race it:)
Otherwise you're just paying money to do a training run. It's good to practice racing at this point and I think it'll serve you better. A 10k race is a really good workout and now is a good time to keep in touch with your speed.
I think 13 on Thursday is too close to the race if you want to do well.
I'd do 5/6 max on Thursday, have the race as your lsr (you can make it 10 with just 2 miles either side w/u c/d), but don't worry about being a mile or two/three off the 13.
You'll probably be ok to do that pace run by Wednesday or Thursday and slot back into your plan then.
That's just what I'd do!

AuldManKing

What she said ^^

laura_ac3

Ososlo wrote: »

It's a race and I think you should race it:)
Otherwise you're just paying money to do a training run. It's good to practice racing at this point and I think it'll serve you better. A 10k race is a really good workout and now is a good time to keep in touch with your speed.
I think 13 on Thursday is too close to the race if you want to do well.
I'd do 5/6 max on Thursday, have the race as your lsr (you can make it 10 with just 2 miles either side w/u c/d), but don't worry about being a mile or two/three off the 13.
You'll probably be ok to do that pace run by Wednesday or Thursday and slot back into your plan then.
That's just what I'd do!

Thanks very much for the advice. Kind of had a feeling you might say something along those lines. Keeping in touch with my speed...Hmmm...not sure I ever had much of that feeling even less confident in that regard lately!

I can run home on Thursday after work which would bring me close to 5 miles so might do that.

aquinn

Morning,
I tried this last night: 1m w/u, 4m pace, 1m c/d
Advice, don't do the 4m pace up the seafront and into the wind. That didn't go well at all but I did try.
I'm doing the Fingal 10km on Sunday and so was going to do the LSR of 13 tomorrow night and then do a big cycle on Saturday. You then don't recommend the LSR this week? Am afraid after last week that if I don't attempt it I'll lose my nerve. I did a lovely 4m on Sunday morning and then a 20m cycle and then last nights attempt. Also I nearly entered DCM on Monday but lost my nerve when they asked for a finishing time.

crisco10

Got my LSR in last night after work. Was tough, I was just pacing by heart rate at start but whatever mood I was in, the pace was more 5:00/km than 5:30/km which it usually is!!!! Forced a slow down from 3 or 4km in...

Anyway, lots of hills in this run in the Phoenix Park which was nice change from flat seafront running. Accelerated a bit in second half to get negative split for the run.

Then a gentle recovery run this morning. Calf a bit stiff but had loosened up nicely within 10 mins of the run...times like that you really feel the positive effects of active recovery.

Ososlo

laura_ac3 wrote: »

Thanks very much for the advice. Kind of had a feeling you might say something along those lines. Keeping in touch with my speed...Hmmm...not sure I ever had much of that feeling even less confident in that regard lately!

I can run home on Thursday after work which would bring me close to 5 miles so might do that.

Speed is all relative
Put in a good 10k effort and it'll serve you well. Keep Thursday's run nice and easy.

Ososlo

aquinn wrote: »

Morning,
I tried this last night: 1m w/u, 4m pace, 1m c/d
Advice, don't do the 4m pace up the seafront and into the wind. That didn't go well at all but I did try.
I'm doing the Fingal 10km on Sunday and so was going to do the LSR of 13 tomorrow night and then do a big cycle on Saturday. You then don't recommend the LSR this week? Am afraid after last week that if I don't attempt it I'll lose my nerve. I did a lovely 4m on Sunday morning and then a 20m cycle and then last nights attempt. Also I nearly entered DCM on Monday but lost my nerve when they asked for a finishing time.

No 13 would be too close to the race. Unless you're very experienced you might not have recovered sufficiently so you might not do your best in the race and are leaving yourself susceptible to injury having two hard runs so close together. I'd take the cycle very easy on Saturday also.
Well done on the pace run. Main thing is you put in the effort so don't worry about exact paces.

adrian522

So, I have a week booked off from work after the Dublin Half Marathon. I'm looking for suggestions on where to go. The plan calls for mostly easy runs that week, but I would be running most days.

So somewhere in Europe, where I can get a bit of R&R and also get some good runs in.

Not too hot hopefully.

I was thinking somewhere like the Basque region could be a good shout. Any ideas?

ciaranmac

Haven't posted here in a week or two - last time I mentioned problems with keeping a steady pace. I've been working on that the last few weeks while extending the distances as well. I ran 10k a week ago at a nice steady pace with no stopping or walking, which I was well pleased with. The following day I did 5k with some strides and then went for a walk with my OH. The LSR on Sunday was 3 laps of 7.1k which involved some short walking breaks as well as stopping to adjust glasses/shoes and twice to get water from the bottle in the car, but it was still 4 minutes faster than the half marathon PB I made a month ago. The breaks are getting shorter and farther between, and I'm keeping strong to the end of each run.

frash

Developing a pattern whereby my mid-week runs are turning into recovery runs from the LSR at the weekend.

Running along comfortably but can't get pace faster than 11min/mile which is almost my LSR pace - body just says no

Hoping to do DCM in 4:30 which would be a pace of 10:18

LSR up to 16 miles now

I know it's all about time on your feet at this stage but before I started pushing out the LSRs I was doing a 6 miles in around 55 mins which is 8:51min/mile

Getting a bit frustrated now on the mid-week runs.
Is the above normal enough?

Edit: - planning on taking a step back for a couple of weeks as I'm off to France for 2 weeks on Friday.
Still planning on getting some runs in but they probably won't be more than 6 miles or so. Hopefully that will get me back on track.

Ososlo

frash wrote: »

Developing a pattern whereby my mid-week runs are turning into recovery runs from the LSR at the weekend.

Running along comfortably but can't get pace faster than 11min/mile which is almost my LSR pace - body just says no

Hoping to do DCM in 4:30 which would be a pace of 10:18

LSR up to 16 miles now

I know it's all about time on your feet at this stage but before I started pushing out the LSRs I was doing a 6 miles in around 55 mins which is 8:51min/mile

Getting a bit frustrated now on the mid-week runs.
Is the above normal enough?

Are you referring to mp mid week runs?
Seems like the lsr is taking a lot out of you. Make sure you're eating and sleeping well and hydrating well all week. People's bodies react differently to the long runs I guess.
Have you any shorter races planned soon? Might be good to see where your speed is at in a race setting.