DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

SoundoftheSea

3.18 miles this morning. Legs a bit sore as a had a very painful but lovely leg massage at the physio yesterday. Best 40 euros spent. Was happy to hear I have no major problems just need to do more stretching with stretchy band and tennis ball.
Happy days

Pacing Mule

6 miles @ the more optimistic end of MP range this evening. Feels like I am getting back on track now.

adrian522

11 Miles MLR run this evening.

Idea was to go Marathon Pace +60 secs, I probably went a bit fast but it was my first tie trying to run this pace so it will take some practice.

Next 2 days are easy runs.

Dub13

JohnDozer wrote: »

Tough and challenging, in every aspect! Planning the time for the runs and executing the runs... One of the major changes for me is changing paces in runs. Before I would have done a range of run lengths and paces, but the pace stayed the same from start to finish of each individual run. Changing gears is proving difficult.

Liking doing the higher mileage, although I do feel at times with this plan that its a fine line between finding your limit and getting the most out of yourself while leaving yourself fresh for next week.

I like the feel of the plan, in the way it builds the MP miles into the runs...

The results will tell all I guess...

I am the same, would have ran decent millage each week before but the tempo runs are though enough. I am feeling them more then the LSR. But over all I am happy with the plan, I think it was the right fit for me as I have the time to run 6 days a week and fit most runs in before I get home from work.

Ososlo wrote: »

Question for the guys doing the BAA plan.
How do you pick your marathon pace? Is it your 'aspired to' marathon pace?

training mp I mean..

Started off with my 'aspired to' pace but turns out to be close enough to Mcmillan. Off a half and 10k time Mcmillan has me down for a 3.43 time, I am going to target a 3:55 finish time.

Laois_Man

Is anyone else getting frustrated because they're getting slower?

When I decided to go for DCM last April, I could knock out a sub 7 minute mile. It was really hard for me, but I could do it. Now I don't think I could knock out a sub 8 minute mile at all - a sub 9 minute mile is harder than it ever was and I don't even think I could run any more than 3 or 4 consecutive sub-10 minute miles at the moment.

I did 8 miles earlier and I was incredibly sluggish. Although I didn't actually want to go fast, I don't think I could have if I did want to.

It seems I have gotten so used to running 10:xx minute miles, I can't do faster anymore and my initial goal of a sub 4 hour marathon seems utterly hilarious now. At this rate, sub 5 hours will be the height of my aims. Disillusioned.

menoscemo

Laois_Man wrote: »

Is anyone else getting frustrated because they're getting slower?

When I decided to go for DCM last April, I could knock out a sub 7 minute mile. It was really hard for me, but I could do it. Now I don't think I could knock out a sub 8 minute mile at all - a sub 9 minute mile is harder than it ever was and I don't even think I could run any more than 3 or 4 consecutive sub-10 minute miles at the moment.

I did 8 miles earlier and I was incredibly sluggish. Although I didn't actually want to go fast, I don't think I could have if I did want to.

It seems I have gotten so used to running 10:xx minute miles, I can't do faster anymore and my initial goal of a sub 4 hour marathon seems utterly hilarious now. At this rate, sub 5 hours will be the height of my aims. Disillusioned.

It might feel like that but you are definitely not getting slower if you are putting in more miles than before. It's just that you are carrying residual fatigue into each run and also your short runs are longer than before. You said last nights run was 8 miles; did you used to run 8 miles sub 7? More likely they were 2 or 3 mile runs.
Have you any races coming up? Take it easy for a few days in the lead up and I guarantee you will smash your PB. I think this is why having the odd race in marathon training can be good: it will give you confidence that the training is working.

Nicsx

Laois_Man wrote: »

Is anyone else getting frustrated because they're getting slower?

When I decided to go for DCM last April, I could knock out a sub 7 minute mile. It was really hard for me, but I could do it. Now I don't think I could knock out a sub 8 minute mile at all - a sub 9 minute mile is harder than it ever was and I don't even think I could run any more than 3 or 4 consecutive sub-10 minute miles at the moment.

I did 8 miles earlier and I was incredibly sluggish. Although I didn't actually want to go fast, I don't think I could have if I did want to.

It seems I have gotten so used to running 10:xx minute miles, I can't do faster anymore and my initial goal of a sub 4 hour marathon seems utterly hilarious now. At this rate, sub 5 hours will be the height of my aims. Disillusioned.

I completely understand where you're coming from. I did the Wexford half in April & was SO proud of my sub 2 (9.06 pace)!

I did the Boards run last night 6m pace with 1m w/u & c/d with PMP of 9.30 & found it tough. I keep thinking how on earth did I knock out 13.1 at 9.06 not so long ago & more to the point how on earth am I going to do 26.2 at 9.30 or 9.45 or even at any pace.

xyz123

long time lurker, first time poster in the forum. following the boards plan. after last nights mp run I was convinced I was getting slower. guess I'll just to keep the faith....but certainly felt a long way from beating any pbs.

ChadHogan

menoscemo wrote: »

It might feel like that but you are definitely not getting slower if you are putting in more miles than before. It's just that you are carrying residual fatigue into each run and also your short runs are longer than before. You said last nights run was 8 miles; did you used to run 8 miles sub 7? More likely they were 2 or 3 mile runs.
Have you any races coming up? Take it easy for a few days in the lead up and I guarantee you will smash your PB. I think this is why having the odd race in marathon training can be good: it will give you confidence that the training is working.

This is something I keep thinking about, and have been having similar doubts myself, so this is good to hear. I've only run about 4 miles in the last 3 months at anything close to 8 minutes/mile - but that's the plan and I've been doing my best to get on board with trusting the plan.

I'm going to have a good cut running sub-80 minutes at the 10 mile next week which would be an improvement of about 20 seconds on last year and see where I am. If I blow up or I'm a few minutes slower than last year I won’t be too upset. I'm trying to stay focused on the marathon which I can tell I'm making progress towards. There'll be plenty of 10 miles and halfs between the end of the year and early next year if I want to do them.

JohnDozer

I think it's about the specific training we are all doing now, we are all training our bodies to run the entire distance of 26.2 miles. When I started running first which isn't that long ago, I was setting times for all the distances up to half marathon that I can't get near now. But I also hope that because of this training that I am going to be a good bit faster over the 26.2 miles than my one and only previous attempt. I also hope that when Dublin is over and the mileage demands decrease, that I'm going to be much quicker over the shorter distances again. I feel much slower than before, but much quicker over the marathon distance than before. I would say stick with it as I think it's natural to feel slower over the shorter distances when putting so much effort into running slower for longer...

Ososlo

You're more than likely a little bit fatigued all the time. You've never run this much in your lives before. It's completely natural to feel like this.
But if you look back through this thread, you'll see novices setting pbs over shorter distances constantly, whether they're following the Hal Plan or the Boards Plan or any other training plan. It's purely down to tiredness to feel this way in my opinion.
If you've a race coming up, you'll taper well for it so will feel fresher on the startline than you do currently. The idea of any marathon training plan is so that you're running on slightly tired legs all the time so you're training your body to be able to keep going when the going gets tough. It's a completely different type of training to anything you've done before.
I personally set pbs at all distances all my way through training last year and I know most of the other novices did too.

adrian522

I took 3 and a half mins of my 10K PB last Monday. I took 2 days off prior to the race so I wasn't already tired.

I think the mini taper is the key to running fast times to be honest. I don't think you can compare a training run where you are already tired to a race situation where you have rested up before hand and are raring to go.

As mentioned above, trust in your plan and the times will improve.

Nicsx

Ososlo wrote: »

You're more than likely a little bit fatigued all the time. You've never run this much in your lives before. It's completely natural to feel like this.
But if you look back through this thread, you'll see novices setting pbs over shorter distances constantly, whether they're following the Hal Plan or the Boards Plan or any other training plan. It's purely down to tiredness to feel this way in my opinion.
If you've a race coming up, you'll taper well for it so will feel fresher on the startline than you do currently. The idea of any marathon training plan is so that you're running on slightly tired legs all the time so you're training your body to be able to keep going when the going gets tough. It's a completely different type of training to anything you've done before.
I personally set pbs at all distances all my way through training last year and I know most of the other novices did too.

You're right of course! I've done the grand total of 2 Parkruns since my half back in April due to a combination of time constraints & fatigued legs from LSRs but I did knock 1 minute off my 5K pb which had stood for over a year & I had felt I'd never get near it again.

New mantra to self - "Keep the faith, keep the faith. They know what they're talking about."

frash

Laois_Man wrote: »

Is anyone else getting frustrated because they're getting slower?

When I decided to go for DCM last April, I could knock out a sub 7 minute mile. It was really hard for me, but I could do it. Now I don't think I could knock out a sub 8 minute mile at all - a sub 9 minute mile is harder than it ever was and I don't even think I could run any more than 3 or 4 consecutive sub-10 minute miles at the moment.

I did 8 miles earlier and I was incredibly sluggish. Although I didn't actually want to go fast, I don't think I could have if I did want to.

It seems I have gotten so used to running 10:xx minute miles, I can't do faster anymore and my initial goal of a sub 4 hour marathon seems utterly hilarious now. At this rate, sub 5 hours will be the height of my aims.
Disillusioned.

I mentioned I was feeling this way last month - see here

But then I went on holidays & wasn't doing as much running - I came back and ran well (not a PB though) in the DLR10k so I think as others have said it's all the running on tired legs we are doing.

Proper tappering will hopefully have us all set on the day (if we make it)

JohnDozer

frash wrote: »

I mentioned I was feeling this way last month - see here

But then I went on holidays & wasn't doing as much running - I came back and ran well (not a PB though) in the DLR10k so I think as others have said it's all the running on tired legs we are doing.

Proper tappering will hopefully have us all set on the day (if we make it)

If we survive the 'taper madness' that is!!!

Laois_Man

I was being a bit of a diva last night wasn't I?
I think part of my struggles last night is that I was at a work doo on Tuesday night coz of people visiting from America and the ol' diet wasn't too good even though I successfully avoided the alcohol.

But I do still feel much slower all the time. Yeah I do have the FD10 coming up in 10 days too - I've never raced 10 miles before so a PB is guaranteed as long as I finish....but there'll still be such a thing as a disappointing time

It's just, if it were a 10K race instead of 10 mile, I don't think I'd get anywhere near the sub 50 minute I ran in March and so the racing strategy for it is a bit of a head scratcher for me at this point. McMillian says I should be able to go 8:18 pace. Yeah, funny joke Mac!

But shur, I'll plug away and see what happens. After DCM, and a good rest and some speedwork over the winter, I know I'll be much faster after it all. It's very confusing what to be aiming for in DCM and although I have been highly reluctant to do a HM so late in the plan, I might decide to take the plunge and go for the DCHM on Sept 20 in the end and hope to get a confidence boost.

menoscemo

Laois_Man wrote: »

a thing as a disappointing time

It's just, if it were a 10K race instead of 10 mile, I don't think I'd get anywhere near the sub 50 minute I ran in March and so the racing strategy for it is a bit of a head scratcher for me at this point.

I really think you are wrong on that point. Running lots of slow miles is a good strategy even when training for 5-10k.
Have you seen Yaboya1's log? He had been spending months running by the Hadd Programme which basically means running lots of miles at a very low HR. So You will typically see him running the vast majority of his runs at 8:30-9:30 min/mile yet in that time he has been improving all his pb's knocking out 36:xx 10ks, sub 30 5 milers etc.

Most of us have a bit of natural speed (i.e. could belt out a fast enough 400m) but fall down on not having endurance. Even a 5k is 90+% aerobic; i.e. fast twtich fibres won't help a lot. The trick is to be able to hold a decent pace for a sustained period. This is where lots of slow miles come in. All the speedwork in the world won't help if you have a poor aerobic base; it's like putting the chassis of a ferrari over the engine of a fiat panda!!

SeanPuddin

I'd be surprised if you didn't go sub 50 in a 10K race with a handful of rest days. I'm far from an athlete but with a very easy week before the 8K race on Saturday, I flew it at 7:40 pace. Only possible due to the slow miles. Ran 6 miles at MP (10:00ish )yesterday and struggled a lot. I think it's just a case of my legs being knackered.

Why not do a race and see

Laois_Man

menoscemo wrote: »

I really think you are wrong on that point. Running lots of slow miles is a good strategy even when training for 5-10k.
Have you seen Yaboya1's log? He had been spending months running by the Hadd Programme which basically means running lots of miles at a very low HR. So You will typically see him running the vast majority of his runs at 8:30-9:30 min/mile yet in that time he has been improving all his pb's knocking out 36:xx 10ks, sub 30 5 milers etc.

Most of us have a bit of natural speed (i.e. could belt out a fast enough 400m) but fall down on not having endurance. Even a 5k is 90+% aerobic; i.e. fast twtich fibres won't help a lot. The trick is to be able to hold a decent pace for a sustained period. This is where lots of slow miles come in. All the speedwork in the world won't help if you have a poor aerobic base; it's like putting the chassis of a ferrari over the engine of a fiat panda!!

Love the analogy at the end!
I am running lots of slow miles. But I don’t believe a race day is another good time to do it. I could stay at home and run more slow on my own, not bother pay the entry fee or travel to Dublin.

But I get where you’re coming from. And although I’d like to feel I COULD run a lot faster right now, I’m not about to throw my toys out of the pram and give up or anything!

Ososlo

Are you doing any of your training faster than 'easy' pace Laois_Man?

bucketybuck

I definitely feel like I'm getting slower rather than faster, but this is where I win as a first timer, I don't care how long it takes me to finish the DCM!

Joleigh

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one struggling with speed! I ran 14 miles on sat at 10mm pace and enjoyed every minute of it. Lastnight I ran 7 miles at an average page of 9.49mm and it was a struggle. No idea what pace to go with for 10 mile next week. Did it at 9mm last year but right now that doesn't seem so do-able. Feeling wrecked today. Think I have a stomach bug coming on My banana is calling me but I'm afraid to eat

KillianByrne

We are training for a marathon though, while previous efforts could have knocked out a quick 7min mile, back then could you string 5mp miles at 8.30pace?

Thats what we are training for now so the effort is weighted towards sustained pace rather than firing the fast twitch fibres.

I don't think I could match my previous mile pace, but Ive knocked nearly 5mins off my 10k time.

Trust your training!

Laois_Man

Ososlo wrote: »

Are you doing any of your training faster than 'easy' pace Laois_Man?

Not really - coz speedwork aggravates my injuries. So I try to keep it slower than 9:45 - but hoping to be able to try a little bit of speed again soon.

Ososlo

Joleigh wrote: »

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one struggling with speed! I ran 14 miles on sat at 10mm pace and enjoyed every minute of it. Lastnight I ran 7 miles at an average page of 9.49mm and it was a struggle. No idea what pace to go with for 10 mile next week. Did it at 9mm last year but right now that doesn't seem so do-able. Feeling wrecked today. Think I have a stomach bug coming on My banana is calling me but I'm afraid to eat

Maybe take a few days off if you feel something coming on. That could be why you struggled last night. A few days off could make a world of difference.

If you have done a race recently then McMillan is good for predicting your 10 mile time based on that.

aquinn

I did it, I ran 17 miles, can't believe it. Not much more to add :-)
Summary Time:2:47:21.1 Distance:17.01 Pace 9:50 - Elevation Gain: 144 m Elevation Loss: 144 m
Min Elevation: 4 m
Max Elevation: 57 m

Started off very nervous and afraid then very early on, at half a mile above my left knee a very nasty sudden weakness/twinge that happened a few times. Suggestions please?
I'm nervous now going back to racing for the 10 mile as all long runs are now done slow.
Kept watching watch to keep pace around 10mpm. Hated the first 6 miles but finally settled.
I thought I'd look a feel 8 stone after that. I don't even feel like I ran off lunch! I took a gel with me and didn't feel any need for it. I had a lite isotonic drink and barely touched it.
Would recommend if anyone needs it the Brooks nightlife essential run Jacket II. I got it for a very good price on Amazon.
I skipped the speed session this week and did 4 easy miles Monday and Wed.
Physio recommended deep tissue massage as body all spasms/knots. The pain in working them out, tears in eyes.

Casey78

Well done aquinn. I've a 15 mile on Sunday which will be the furthest I've ever run.
My youngest sons christening is on Saturday so Sunday morning should be fun for a run...Not!

Ososlo

aquinn wrote: »

I did it, I ran 17 miles, can't believe it. Not much more to add :-)
Summary Time:2:47:21.1 Distance:17.01 Pace 9:50 - Elevation Gain: 144 m Elevation Loss: 144 m
Min Elevation: 4 m
Max Elevation: 57 m

Started off very nervous and afraid then very early on, at half a mile above my left knee a very nasty sudden weakness/twinge that happened a few times. Suggestions please?
I'm nervous now going back to racing for the 10 mile as all long runs are now done slow.
Kept watching watch to keep pace around 10mpm. Hated the first 6 miles but finally settled.
I thought I'd look a feel 8 stone after that. I don't even feel like I ran off lunch! I took a gel with me and didn't feel any need for it. I had a lite isotonic drink and barely touched it.
Would recommend if anyone needs it the Brooks nightlife essential run Jacket II. I got it for a very good price on Amazon.
I skipped the speed session this week and did 4 easy miles Monday and Wed.
Physio recommended deep tissue massage as body all spasms/knots. The pain in working them out, tears in eyes.

Well done on the 17! Fantastic! That's great going!
The knee could be due to a tight IT band. I really don't know to be honest with you. You'd have to get a physio to diagnose it. If it's related to the IT band then you could try foam rolling the TFL (google where it is-top of leg, don't foam roll IT band itself) and it might relieve it. It's really only guesswork on my part but I did have knee twinges in the past which were to do with my tight IT band.
Have a really good taper now next week leading up to the 10 Mile and you'll likely surprise yourself with how good you feel racing on fresh legs.

ccrccs

Hi decided to sign up and give my pennys worth in prep for Dcm2014
5k pb 20 44. 10k 44.20 I have never done any other long runs.Decided to do dcm as a personal achievement.i was never any good at sport of any kind and for me this would brilliant.started training on July 12th.i am following Carrie s plan as featured on the Irish Runner magazine.i have so far run 15miles on sunday

laura_ac3

Hey guys,

Quick question - anyone able to recommend any good exercises for strengthening glutes? And while I'm here sure any stretches as well?

Cheers.