DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

Mimojo

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Was about to reply to you on your other thread

Your LSR pace looks very good to me. It's about 10:45 pace (miles that is) You would typically hit that pace now if aiming for an actual on the day pace around 9:45 / 10:00 which would take you home in a very respectable 4:15 ish. Don't knock that at all. It's a super goal time given your history.

Quick edit. I would be wary of the gym instructors advice. Intervals and hills plus a long run is effectively 3 hard sessions a week. As mileage increases in coming months I personally think that is a recipe for injury disaster. Have a look at the plans linked in first post. The base novice 1 HH plan will have no sessions at all just concentrating on building mileage, the slightly more advanced boards plan you will see still has a majority of easy runs. It's about mileage building now which takes a lot to get over. Throwing multiple sessions in on too of that is probably not a good idea.

Ososlo wrote: »

Hi Mimojo, I have no doubt you can do it but you need to take a very different approach to marathon training than you are currently doing, especially for a first marathon where half the battle is getting to the start line injury free.
Have a look at week 9 of both plans listed at the end of post one and read post 2 about pacing your runs very closely and see how you might slot into one of those plans. As PM stated, you currently doing too much hard stuff when the focus should be on the easy stuff and building up the miles and time on your feet.
Have a read of posts one and two and check out week9 of the plans and get back to us with your thoughts. Personally I think you could easily do dcm if you take the correct approach from here on.
Well done on all you've achieved so far. Pretty impressive stuff!!!

Thanks for your replies and advice, very much appreciated. I felt like I didnt really know what I was doing up to this point, if the interval and hill sprint sessions were the way to go, but from the advice above it seems that what I need to do instead is focus on building up my mileage rather than these sessions, SO glad I found this thread! Feeling a hell of a lot better about it now, and feel like it is achievable. If I could slot into the beginners plan from here on in, while continuing to increase my lsr from where I am now I would be delighted, and feel that I can do it.

This morning legs were still pretty tired from Saturday so did a nice easy 4km and feeling a lot better now. Just wasnt able for an interval session as I knew it would be too tough. I see now I have been trying to kill myself with what I was doing, it is just too much on top of the long runs, will def be making changes from today, so glad I found this amazing thread!

Ososlo

Mimojo wrote: »

Thanks for your replies and advice, very much appreciated. I felt like I didnt really know what I was doing up to this point, if the interval and hill sprint sessions were the way to go, but from the advice above it seems that what I need to do instead is focus on building up my mileage rather than these sessions, SO glad I found this thread! Feeling a hell of a lot better about it now, and feel like it is achievable. If I could slot into the beginners plan from here on in, while continuing to increase my lsr from where I am now I would be delighted, and feel that I can do it.

This morning legs were still pretty tired from Saturday so did a nice easy 4km and feeling a lot better now. Just wasnt able for an interval session as I knew it would be too tough. I see now I have been trying to kill myself with what I was doing, it is just too much on top of the long runs, will def be making changes from today, so glad I found this amazing thread!

Exactly. You need to enjoy the majority of your running and it shouldn't be a chore as if it is then it's very hard to stick with it long term which is what it's all about really and not just one marathon. You shouldn't be killing yourself on every run.
The main focus should be the lsr and building weekly miles around that. If you want to do a little bit of pace work then you could consider the Boards plan.
I'm sure you'd be well able for it.
Any more questions just ask.

RunRoryRun

Have had a rubbish week. Only got one 6 mile pace run in midweek and no long run. Was coming off the back of a 19mile LSR last sunday and feeling good. Moving house so the last week was a lot of shopping / moving / furniture assembly / looking after junior (6 months old) and couldn't squeeze in any time for running. Almost finished now, so hopefully by midweek I'll be back in the running routine again. Find myself a lot grumpier the longer I don't run, and I don't like that!!!

Mimojo

Ososlo wrote: »

Exactly. You need to enjoy the majority of your running and it shouldn't be a chore as if it is then it's very hard to stick with it long term which is what it's all about really and not just one marathon. You shouldn't be killing yourself on every run.
The main focus should be the lsr and building weekly miles around that. If you want to do a little bit of pace work then you could consider the Boards plan.
I'm sure you'd be well able for it.
Any more questions just ask.

Thanks a mill for the advice, very much appreciated. Will make the necessary changes going forward and all going well will be at the start (and finish!) line of DCM!

I have started to use the gels over the past few weeks which is going well & do find them a good help & give a good boost of energy. At the moment using High 5 Orange Isogel & find them pretty ok on the stomach. I did find at the weekend that I was really hungry towards the end of the run so for this weeks lsr I am going to bring something to eat, is an energy bar the way to go here, or jelly beans? I invested in a running belt so have gotten used to this, but the bottles that came with it are tiny so also carry a bottle with me, but still find that I am really thirsty towards the end.

Also I have read here that it is Lucozade orange that is given out during DCM so I am going to start carrying this also. Do they also give our energy gels along the way or do you just bring your own? Just wondered what brand they are.

Finally sometimes during the lsr I can feel my legs muscles are very tight, so from time to time I take a quick 20 second break (maybe 2-3 times during the run in total) to have a stretch and continue on and I have found in the last few weeks it really helps. I know this is a totally daft question but is it ok to stop like this during the marathon itself?!

Sorry if all these questions have been asked already!

Laois_Man

In my experience, jelly beans and gels are utterly atrocious when mixed together in the stomach. May be different for others though!

DCM provides High 5 gels but I have no idea what flavor.

I expect you'll see many people stopping for a stretch or a puke during the marathon. I doubt it would be unusual.

Might be an idea to test if the lucozade sport bottles handed out in the marathon can slip into the holders in your running belt - see can you run with them in it.

Ososlo

High 5 but bring your own as you can't rely on them having enough. Practice practice practice carrying everything you'll bring on the day in your training lsrs.

Experiment with gels and try real food like bananas if you want but consider how convenient it will be to carry. Gels are most convenient as light and easily digestable for most people.

Course it's fine to stop but time will be ticking by so keep in a forward motion if you can. Try not to stop towards the end of race as you might find it hard to get going again.

ciaranmac

16 mile LSR on Saturday, including a wrong turn and unplanned 6 mile loop. I hadn't gone over 8 miles since I was sick a month ago, and hadn't done nearly enough easy runs in the meantime. The last 5 miles were pretty tough, my calves and plantar fascia were pretty sore and I needed a few walking breaks towards the end. Still it's done now and I think I'm back on track.

Firedance

Hi folks, I'm back :-) well I've been lurking here for the last few weeks and slowly building back up into the training schedule - and jealously reading all the fab training that's been going on, fair play to everyone that's a lot of mileage and hard work to date.

I am way too far behind the club training to catch up but am not too far off HH2 so I'm going to use that as my base from this week, one of the reasons for that is that the Athlone half and the Athlone 3/4, both of which I signed up for slot nicely into the mileage. My foot is good not bad these days, final diagnosis was a dropped metatarsal so I'm still getting physio and my feet are getting an unreal amount of pampering!

I've also discovered clif shot gels which fingers crossed seem to be working for me so I'm really happy about that. How is everyone feeling in the days after their long runs? I noticed that while I felt great after I'd finished on Saturday morning, by Saturday afternoon/evening I was very very tired & same on Sunday (despite early night) to the extent that I was super cranky.. I was the same earlier in the year when training for the half so any tips for quick recovery would be very welcome.

Hopefully I'm not jinxing my recovery by saying I'm back now

Ososlo

Welcome back Firedance!
I'm not sure there is a quick way to recovery but there are things you should do to help aid recovery. Everyone's different and will recover at different rates.
Sleep is key, both before and after. Try get to bed an hour earlier each night.
Eat well with immune boosting foods. Lots of greens.Plenty of protein and good carbs.
Fuel yourself as you run with sports drink to replenish lost salts. Drip feed yourself throughout the run to keep levels topped up.
When you're finished eat something small like a banana and glass of milk within 20 mins. Have a good meal as soon as you can.
If you feel awful the evening of the run you could try a dioralyte sachet. I find them great to revive myself after a hard run.
Get your oh or friend to do all the house work of course and treat you like a queen too:D

Joleigh

The tiredness is unreal! I will be going to bed early tonight. I thought it would be a great idea to hit the shops yesterday after my 15 miler. I was wrecked walking around. I defo need dioralite. I haven't lost a pound since I started marathon training. I must have big muscles instead of fat

laura_ac3

Firedance wrote: »

Hi folks, I'm back :-) well I've been lurking here for the last few weeks and slowly building back up into the training schedule - and jealously reading all the fab training that's been going on, fair play to everyone that's a lot of mileage and hard work to date.

I am way too far behind the club training to catch up but am not too far off HH2 so I'm going to use that as my base from this week, one of the reasons for that is that the Athlone half and the Athlone 3/4, both of which I signed up for slot nicely into the mileage. My foot is good not bad these days, final diagnosis was a dropped metatarsal so I'm still getting physio and my feet are getting an unreal amount of pampering!

I've also discovered clif shot gels which fingers crossed seem to be working for me so I'm really happy about that. How is everyone feeling in the days after their long runs? I noticed that while I felt great after I'd finished on Saturday morning, by Saturday afternoon/evening I was very very tired & same on Sunday (despite early night) to the extent that I was super cranky.. I was the same earlier in the year when training for the half so any tips for quick recovery would be very welcome.

Hopefully I'm not jinxing my recovery by saying I'm back now

Since I hit 14/16 miles I find I'm quite tired the rest of the day after. Went for a power nap after the 16 miles and was in bed early Saturday night after the 18 miles. Stiff the day after especially getting up but loosen out as the day goes on.

I have noticed various people telling me recently I look tired (charmers!) but that could be from everything - running, work and general busyness at home. Could be better at getting more early nights to he honest.

Ososlo

laura_ac3 wrote: »

Since I hit 14/16 miles I find I'm quite tired the rest of the day after. Went for a power nap after the 16 miles and was in bed early Saturday night after the 18 miles. Stiff the day after especially getting up but loosen out as the day goes on.

I have noticed various people telling me recently I look tired (charmers!) but that could be from everything - running, work and general busyness at home. Could be better at getting more early nights to he honest.

They're just jealous cause you're running a marathon and they're not;)

I think it was ultraman1 who said on another thread that if you can get one extra hour a night then that adds up to a whole extra night per week!!! That's a good way to look on it and would do wonders for recovery. Unless you're an insomniac of course

Firedance

Ososlo wrote: »

Welcome back Firedance!
I'm not sure there is a quick way to recovery but there are things you should do to help aid recovery. Everyone's different and will recover at different rates.
Sleep is key, both before and after. Try get to bed an hour earlier each night.
Eat well with immune boosting foods. Lots of greens.Plenty of protein and good carbs.
Fuel yourself as you run with sports drink to replenish lost salts. Drip feed yourself throughout the run to keep levels topped up.
When you're finished eat something small like a banana and glass of milk within 20 mins. Have a good meal as soon as you can.
If you feel awful the evening of the run you could try a dioralyte sachet. I find them great to revive myself after a hard run.
Get your oh or friend to do all the house work of course and treat you like a queen too:D

Thanks Ososlo! I had a nunn tablet in my water so hopefully that will sort out the salts, I'm not overly fond of sports drinks in general but think you're right about drip feeding throughout the run I'll def try that at the weekend and make sure to have a good meal afterwards. Sounds like its all part of the fun though if others are feeling it too, so basically write off weekends between now and the end of October!

annapr

Delighted with another week done last week... all the HH1 miles plus a little hill walk thrown in.

LSR yesterday (Sunday) was 13.06 miles. Before yesterday, I had only run that distance once, last year's race series Half Marathon -- I fell over the line at that, having to resort to walking the upper glen road, and felt it was the hardest thing I had ever done but was happy enough with 2:19.

Yesterday, I set off facing into a gale force wind and a long slow climb followed by a bloody big hill. I was dreading the thought of coming back over the same big hill on the way home (worse than the Zurich marathon, honest!). The first half felt like a really hard slog, and not for the first time, I thought, I'll never be able to get to 13 miles. When I turned around, looking forward to the wind at my back, it was actually buffeting me from the side... but when I crested that hill on the way home (at around 10 miles) I felt like I had just won an Olympic gold and flew (mostly downhill) for the last 5k. The last mile was the fastest at 9:04.

Every bone and muscle from butt to toes ached for the rest of the day, and I feel a bit stiff today but not bad at all.

Best of all, 13.06 miles in 2:11; avg speed of 10:04min/mile or 6:15 min/K (I still think in km). The pace felt really comfortable and at times very slow, slowest Km (yes near the top of the hill) was 7:01, but other than that quite consistent.

I didn't have any gels, brought a water belt which I sipped about 250ml. I looked like a 'whin bush' as they say here in Donegal by the end (as if I'd been through some mad blow dryer)... and my only regret is that my favourite running hat blew away somewhere in the bog above Glenties, never to be seen again, at least by me.

I'm still marvelling at how the training works... blindingly obvious I know, but if you do the training it appears you can do the miles! (hope this holds true all the way to October). Really looking forward to Frank Duffy on Sat now.

Gavlor

AuldManKing wrote: »

that means you have 60 days messing left and then 10 days training. You'll be grand.

160k cycle this weekend = 20 mile lsr.

That only leaves 1 20 mile lsr after that.

Am I doing this right?

Ososlo

Gavlor wrote: »

160k cycle this weekend = 20 mile lsr.

That only leaves 1 20 mile lsr after that.

Am I doing this right?

Maybe check the rules, as last time I checked they said something about bikes not being allowed on the course. You best tell meno too in case he was looking to hitch a lift on the back

Gavlor

Ososlo wrote: »

Maybe check the rules, as last time I checked they said something about bikes not being allowed on the course. You best tell meno too in case he was looking to hitch a lift on the back

We're going to blow the hell out of the theory that you need 16 weeks of progression training to run a marathon!

9 weeks from a standing start, jumping in from 12 miles, incorporating 2 20 milers and a 2 week taper. How ya fixed meno?

menoscemo

Gavlor wrote: »

We're going to blow the hell out of the theory that you need 16 weeks of progression training to run a marathon!

9 weeks from a standing start, jumping in from 12 miles, incorporating 2 20 milers and a 2 week taper. How ya fixed meno?

Yeah that's my plan pretty much, hopefully I will get a gig pacing the Athlone 3/4 to tick off one of the 20 milers.
Don't think I will be having any taper though tbh, no real point. Maybe take it easy the 5 days before the race (easy runs) but I will likely run at least 18 miles the week before.
Just got back into it this week, culminating in a 10 mile LSR today, should be grand. :pac:

Edit: Maybe we should set up a couch to 3:40 Marathon in 10 weeks thread?

Gavlor

menoscemo wrote: »

Just got back into it this week, culminating in a 10 mile LSR today, should be grand. :pac:

Show off

menoscemo

Gavlor wrote: »

Show off

Building up to the 12 next week You've been doing more fitness stuff than me

AuldManKing

I see that my pacing colleagues are filling our Novices with a lot of confidence in our abilities!

menoscemo

AuldManKing wrote: »

I see that my pacing colleagues are filling our Novices with a lot of confidence in our abilities!

Oops; don't worry as previously stated I am 24-0 on pacing gigs (unlike my rookie colleagues ), I'll be fine and If I feel I am not in at least 3:20 marathon shape a week or two before I would obviously swap with one of the guys/gals doing one of the lower bands.

Gavlor

menoscemo wrote: »

Oops; don't worry as previously stated I am 24-0 on pacing gigs (unlike my rookie colleagues ), I'll be fine and If I feel I am not in at least 3:20 marathon shape a week or two before I would obviously swap with one of the guys/gals doing one of the lower bands.

And I've already ran a sub 3 marathon only a few weeks ago and have been merely maintaining my fitness with avg 200km per week!

It'll be alright on the night......

I'd NEVER ask for someone to take my place!!

Hard to believe that I'm the nice guy of our group

Ososlo

AuldManKing wrote: »

I see that my pacing colleagues are filling our Novices with a lot of confidence in our abilities!

Nobody needs to worry if they're following the Three Wise Men for a 3:40 time;) These are highly conditioned slick athletes who will reach the peak of their fitness on the eve of the 26th of October. Between them they have decades and decades of experience (maybe one:D) and are a credit to the world of long-distance running and pacing. You should feel privileged to be able to follow this group of inspiring elite endurance athletes on the 27th.

if they make the startline

Gavlor

Ososlo wrote: »

Nobody needs to worry if they're following the Three Wise Men for a 3:40 time;) These are highly conditioned slick athletes who will reach the peak of their fitness on the eve of the 26th of October. Between them they have decades and decades of experience (maybe one:D) and are a credit to the world of long-distance running and pacing. You should feel privileged to be able to follow this group of inspiring elite endurance athletes on the 27th.

if they make the startline

You forgot to mention that we are by far and away the best looking pacer group also.

Ososlo

Gavlor wrote: »

You forgot to mention that we are by far and away the best looking pacer group also.

Ladies (and gentlemen if you're so inclined), you're in for a big treat;) Only problem is you'll want to stay behind:P for the duration, even if you have the legs to pass at 20 miles. If I were you and I was on the fence about doing 5hrs or 3:40, I'd give 3:40 a shot, even if you can only hang on for a few miles:D

rockwell

Evening Ososlo and all, just looking for some advise regarding some races and the HAL1 plan. There is a local 5mi race on Sunday the 31st Aug which I'd like to support and race if i could but i have the 15mi LSR the day before so should i just forget about this time round? The other event is the Cork to Cobh 15mi race on Sunday 28th Sept. People i've spoken to say it is a good one to do ahead of the DCM. Should i taper down the miles a bit that week or would Fri and Sat be enough for rest days ahead of the event?

Ososlo

rockwell wrote: »

Evening Ososlo and all, just looking for some advise regarding some races and the HAL1 plan. There is a local 5mi race on Sunday the 31st Aug which I'd like to support and race if i could but i have the 15mi LSR the day before so should i just forget about this time round? The other event is the Cork to Cobh 15mi race on Sunday 28th Sept. People i've spoken to say it is a good one to do ahead of the DCM. Should i taper down the miles a bit that week or would Fri and Sat be enough for rest days ahead of the event?

Ok, well definitely don't do the 2 things (race and 15 mile lsr the day after).
If you have your heart set on the 5mile race and you have done most of your long runs to-date, then you could do, 2 mile warmup, 5 mile race and 2-3 mile cool down and still get in a decent length run with some great race-pace work in there.

The 15mile race on the 28th sounds like a great idea as prep for DCM. Definitely taper before it. Have a look at the amendments I've done for the taper for those following the Hal Plan who are doing the 10mile and half marathon races and do something similar the week of your race.

laura_ac3

But confused by something, looking to see if anyone has experienced anything similar.

I got new runners in April in AK so got the analysis done etc and went with the recommendation. Little later in May I was in America and picked up the same runners to have a spare pair as they were cheaper - got the same size, same make and model and even down to the same colour. Tried them on there and wore them around sightseeing for a couple of days. Kind of forgot about them until recently.

So I've been running in the first pair ever since I got them with no problems - have clocked up about 250 miles in them. Decided recently I'd start easing the others in so I'd be ready before the big day. But the problem is they're not comfortable at all. Tried wearing them on a couple of short runs and they just don't feel right with tonight being the worst. Uncomfortable at best and sore at times. I've tried loosening them, tightening them, adjusting the laces and nothing seems to help. In fact my legs in general didn't feel right.

Previously when I bought runners it was always a new make or model but given that this time it was a continuation of the same shoe I thought I wouldn't notice a major difference. Maybe a bedding in period to phase them in but nothing too major.

Has this happened to anyone before where there's just a breaking in to be done as the body gets used to the new shoe? Or you've purchased the exact same shoe type only to find the next one just isn't the same? I've even double checked to make sure it's not an issue with the European verus American sizing but they're identical.

Obviously I can go buy another new pair of shoes but just looking for any possible similar experiences first. Nervous about possibly trying an unknown shoe at this stage as my first pair have been great but now I'm confused about buying the same ones again which is what I would have done if it weren't for this weird American pair.

Ososlo

laura_ac3 wrote: »

But confused by something, looking to see if anyone has experienced anything similar.

I got new runners in April in AK so got the analysis done etc and went with the recommendation. Little later in May I was in America and picked up the same runners to have a spare pair as they were cheaper - got the same size, same make and model and even down to the same colour. Tried them on there and wore them around sightseeing for a couple of days. Kind of forgot about them until recently.

So I've been running in the first pair ever since I got them with no problems - have clocked up about 250 miles in them. Decided recently I'd start easing the others in so I'd be ready before the big day. But the problem is they're not comfortable at all. Tried wearing them on a couple of short runs and they just don't feel right with tonight being the worst. Uncomfortable at best and sore at times. I've tried loosening them, tightening them, adjusting the laces and nothing seems to help. In fact my legs in general didn't feel right.

Previously when I bought runners it was always a new make or model but given that this time it was a continuation of the same shoe I thought I wouldn't notice a major difference. Maybe a bedding in period to phase them in but nothing too major.

Has this happened to anyone before where there's just a breaking in to be done as the body gets used to the new shoe? Or you've purchased the exact same shoe type only to find the next one just isn't the same? I've even double checked to make sure it's not an issue with the European verus American sizing but they're identical.

Obviously I can go buy another new pair of shoes but just looking for any possible similar experiences first. Nervous about possibly trying an unknown shoe at this stage as my first pair have been great but now I'm confused about buying the same ones again which is what I would have done if it weren't for this weird American pair.

Dunno laura, bit of a bummer but don't wear them if they're not right.
All I know is that any time I go to AK to pick up the same runners I always wear, I want to grab the box and go, but they always insist I try them on first to make sure they're comfortable. Maybe you could post the question on the Gear & Equip Thread if you don't get much feedback here.
If I was you and I had the cash I'd go try on another pair in AK in the next few weeks whether they're the same brand or a different one. It's good you noticed this now and not the day before DCM:eek: