DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

skittles11

Training been going smoothly on HHN2 up until last week. Had a wedding to go to in Positano, Italy (Amazing!!) so looked up some routes before I went and found one of the worlds top hikes called The Path Of The Gods. I incorporate some hill running into my marathon training so I thought I'd run it. This was last Thursday and I was using it as my LSR as the wedding was on Friday and I would be travelling to Rome on sat and didn't fancy a 15 miler on the cobbled streets of Rome in 26 degrees!

From our hotel it was 16km out and back with 2,300m gain! Most of the climbing was in the form of almost 2000 steps which were tough on the way up but completely broke me on the way back down. The trail from the top of the steps to the turning point was no picnic either although the views were just stunning. It took me 2.40 to run/jog (walk/crawl) 16km!

Anyway, the next day I couldn't walk down steps (up was fine, up even gave me some relief) which, as anyone who's visited Positano knows, is a big problem! My calves have been on fire since. I didn't get a single run in in Rome which had me rightly pissed off but I got home yesterday morn and said feck it I'll run through the pain for 6.4km, don't do miles, sorry!. Wasn't so bad but calves still very sore this morning. Think I'll go to TK Maxx for a foam roller.

Anyway I'm hoping missing my LSR and most of last weeks smaller runs (I did 12km on Tuesday) won't affect me too badly. I'm so tempted to put in extra mileage to make up for it and I caught myself running at a higher pace yesterday to compensate. I presume I'm better off just starting back where I left off.

Don't get me wrong btw, I'm not complaining. I'm so proud of myself for doing the course it's just I'm not liking being knocked off my training program.

flogen

Hope it's OK to ask this question here - first time going for a marathon but I'm using Jeff Gaudette's programme via the Runkeeper app rather than the ones suggested here.

Long story short, during a 13 mile run on 9th August I started getting a bit of a pain/twinge in my calf/shin. It was a bit sore the next day, but nothing agonising, so I tried to look after it while continuing the plan.

Kept going for the following week but there was no sign of it shifting, so I decided to take a few days off (so my last run was 16th).

It has gotten better but is still hanging around somewhat, so I'm off to a physio today to make sure 1) it's nothing serious and 2) what I can do to help recovery and avoid it recurring.

Anyway - my question here is am I approaching the point of being off-plan for too long to realistically get to the DCM?

I had found the programme fine until this hit and I was relatively comfortable with (but not delighted about) taking a week off... but now that I'm into week 2 I'm starting to get worried.

Thanks for any tips or advice.

SeanPuddin

Casey78 wrote: »

I ordered the €8.99 race pack of gels from chain reaction cycles on Sunday.
The Postman has come and gone this morning and still no sign of them.
Has anyone else ordered them and how long did it take to arrive?

Mine were dispatched within an hour or two after ordering last night. Got a tracking number from parcelforce this morning.

Ososlo

flogen wrote: »

Hope it's OK to ask this question here - first time going for a marathon but I'm using Jeff Gaudette's programme via the Runkeeper app rather than the ones suggested here.

Long story short, during a 13 mile run on 9th August I started getting a bit of a pain/twinge in my calf/shin. It was a bit sore the next day, but nothing agonising, so I tried to look after it while continuing the plan.

Kept going for the following week but there was no sign of it shifting, so I decided to take a few days off (so my last run was 16th).

It has gotten better but is still hanging around somewhat, so I'm off to a physio today to make sure 1) it's nothing serious and 2) what I can do to help recovery and avoid it recurring.

Anyway - my question here is am I approaching the point of being off-plan for too long to realistically get to the DCM?

I had found the programme fine until this hit and I was relatively comfortable with (but not delighted about) taking a week off... but now that I'm into week 2 I'm starting to get worried.

Thanks for any tips or advice.

Hi flogen
good idea getting physio to check it out.
How long have you been running and what kind of weekly mileage would you have been doing? What's your longest recent long slow run to date?

AuldManKing

I'm wondering how everyone's legs are after the race on Saturday? Be careful this week as recovery is important.
Has the race made you more confident or less confident of your marathon time??

neilthefunkeone

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm wondering how everyone's legs are after the race on Saturday? Be careful this week as recovery is important.
Has the race made you more confident or less confident of your marathon time??

Legs are fine.. Was out for 4.7 miles yesterday and have 8 miles planned for tonight.. Went out at 8min miles and suffered later in the race..
Still haven't picked my marathon pace yet.. Ill see how the Half goes!

flogen

Ososlo wrote: »

Hi flogen
good idea getting physio to check it out.

Thanks for that - yeah, I'd rather be over-cautious and get some advice than push myself and end up coming off the tracks altogether.

How long have you been running and what kind of weekly mileage would you have been doing? What's your longest recent long slow run to date?

Overall I've been running for maybe 2 1/2 to 3 years - though with a lot of fluctuation in terms of the amount.

I started this particular programme in early July and the aforementioned 13 mile run was the longest recent long slow run (the one I did the following week eased up on the mileage).

Weekly mileage started out around 20 miles and has ticked up by maybe 1-2 miles per week, with 30 being done in the week of the 13 mile one.

adrian522

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm wondering how everyone's legs are after the race on Saturday? Be careful this week as recovery is important.
Has the race made you more confident or less confident of your marathon time??

I got out for a recovery run on Sunday, went fine. Monday 6 miles easy fine.

Yesterday Marathon Pace tempo, not so fine, struggled with that one a little bit. Not sure if it's to do with Saturday's race though.

I guess it would make me more confident. My planned marathon pace at present is about 8:30. I'm not 100% on that yet though.

My pace from Saturday was 7:49m/m so happy enough with that. Need to settle on a target for the half first. I was thinking of aiming for 1:45.

Ososlo

flogen wrote: »

Thanks for that - yeah, I'd rather be over-cautious and get some advice than push myself and end up coming off the tracks altogether.

Overall I've been running for maybe 2 1/2 to 3 years - though with a lot of fluctuation in terms of the amount.

I started this particular programme in early July and the aforementioned 13 mile run was the longest recent long slow run (the one I did the following week eased up on the mileage).

Weekly mileage started out around 20 miles and has ticked up by maybe 1-2 miles per week, with 30 being done in the week of the 13 mile one.

Well compared to the Hal Higdon plan you'd be where you need to be regarding weekly mileage and lsr and you're not a total novice so you have a bit of experience behind you. I'd say you'll still be in with a good shot of making the startline depending on what the physio says and as long as you don't miss too many more days.
Do you foam roll? If not then I'd start asap. Let us know what physio says. Good luck with appointment!

menoscemo

adrian522 wrote: »

I got out for a recovery run on Sunday, went fine. Monday 6 miles easy fine.

Yesterday Marathon Pace tempo, not so fine, struggled with that one a little bit. Not sure if it's to do with Saturday's race though.

I guess it would make me more confident. My planned marathon pace at present is about 8:30. I'm not 100% on that yet though.

My pace from Saturday was 7:49m/m so happy enough with that. Need to settle on a target for the half first. I was thinking of aiming for 1:45.

Why did you pick 8:30 pace as MP? that's aiming for a 3;45 finish right?
I have a feeling that would be very optimistic for a first time Marathoner with a 1:45 Half time. Your 10 mile pace indicates that your HM target is just about right, so it's not as if you're 'sandbagging' you HM target.

flogen

Ososlo wrote: »

Well compared to the Hal Higdon plan you'd be where you need to be regarding weekly mileage and lsr and you're not a total novice so you have a bit of experience behind you. I'd say you'll still be in with a good shot of making the startline depending on what the physio says and as long as you don't miss too many more days.
Do you foam roll? If not then I'd start asap. Let us know what physio says. Good luck with appointment!

Thanks - just need a bit of reassurance. Hopefully the physio has some good news for me today and I can get back out asap... I'll have to resist overdoing it but will also expect the return to be a bit tougher than it might have been otherwise.

And no - I don't foam-roll... it's probably the only thing I've not tried to deal with this niggle! Will give it a go (and will let you know what the physio says).

Thanks again.

Ososlo

flogen wrote: »

Thanks - just need a bit of reassurance. Hopefully the physio has some good news for me today and I can get back out asap... I'll have to resist overdoing it but will also expect the return to be a bit tougher than it might have been otherwise.

And no - I don't foam-roll... it's probably the only thing I've not tried to deal with this niggle! Will give it a go (and will let you know what the physio says).

Thanks again.

Definitely get yourself a foam roller and get working on those calfs. Get the physio to show you how to use it properly during your visit today.

adrian522

menoscemo wrote: »

Why did you pick 8:30 pace as MP? that's aiming for a 3;45 finish right?
I have a feeling that would be very optimistic for a first time Marathoner with a 1:45 Half time. Your 10 mile pace indicates that your HM target is just about right, so it's not as if you're 'sandbagging' you HM target.

I picked 8:30 based on a difficult but realistic target. That is what I have been training towards.

I would be prepared to pull that in a bit for the race and maybe aim for something a bit more conservative.

I guess it's hard to know for your first one what to aim for. 8:30 seems about right in training in terms of how difficult it feels.

menoscemo

adrian522 wrote: »

I picked 8:30 based on a difficult but realistic target. That is what I have been training towards.

I would be prepared to pull that in a bit for the race and maybe aim for something a bit more conservative.

I guess it's hard to know for your first one what to aim for. 8:30 seems about right in training in terms of how difficult it feels.

In fairness your mileage has been much higher than most novice marathoners (it certainly would be much higher than i did for my first- 4;15 off a 1:47 half btw) so you have a better chance than most.
In saying that the endurance required to hold a decent, aggressive marathon pace for 26.2 miles is something that is built up over years and years. I still think targetting sub 3:45 is a bit aggressive to be honest. Even dropping to a target of (e.g.) 3:50 might make things seem an awful lot easier.

Laois_Man

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm wondering how everyone's legs are after the race on Saturday? Be careful this week as recovery is important.
Has the race made you more confident or less confident of your marathon time??

Didn't do any running from Saturday until yesterday evening where I did 8 miles very very slowly at 11:52 pace, I felt a few twinges but nothing that I am overly worried about....touch wood.

I definitely feel more confident than I was last Friday but I definitely still feel slower than I was a few months ago too. I don't really know what pace I will go at yet but if you put a gun to my head, I'd probably say I'll go with the 4:10 pacers. That would be 9:32 pace, which is 26 seconds per mile slower than McMillian says I should go based on last Saturdays time.

Casey78

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm wondering how everyone's legs are after the race on Saturday? Be careful this week as recovery is important.
Has the race made you more confident or less confident of your marathon time??

Has dented my confidence a little. Went out last night for first time since Saturday and struggled through a 4mile run at 10min/mile pace.
Last week I managed 15miles at 9'40 pace...
Feeling a bit like I'm going backwards.

Laois_Man

Ososlo wrote: »

Definitely get yourself a foam roller and get working on those calfs. Get the physio to show you how to use it properly during your visit today.

There are loads of foam rolling video's on YouTube. But does anyone know an especially good one?

Ososlo

Casey78 wrote: »

Has dented my confidence a little. Went out last night for first time since Saturday and struggled through a 4mile run at 10min/mile pace.
Last week I managed 15miles at 9'40 pace...
Feeling a bit like I'm going backwards.

Your legs will still be wrecked three days after a hard 10 mile race so I wouldn't worry at all about pace at the moment. Keep it all at a nice comfortable effort.

adrian522

menoscemo wrote: »

In fairness your mileage has been much higher than most novice marathoners (it certainly would be much higher than i did for my first- 4;15 off a 1:47 half btw) so you have a better chance than most.
In saying that the endurance required to hold a decent, aggressive marathon pace for 26.2 miles is something that is built up over years and years. I still think targetting sub 3:45 is a bit aggressive to be honest. Even dropping to a target of (e.g.) 3:50 might make things seem an awful lot easier.

Thanks, 3:50 would make Marathon pace closer to 8:45 which sounds a lot more manageable over the longer distance.

As I said above I'm more than happy to out very conservatively for my first one.

Joleigh

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm wondering how everyone's legs are after the race on Saturday? Be careful this week as recovery is important.
Has the race made you more confident or less confident of your marathon time??

After the race my heel was tender so iced, foam roller, frozen bottle rolled and didn't run till lastnight. Did 5m easy. Heel & ankle were a bit tender to start but took it really easy and it loosened out fine. I finished comfortably and when I got home my face was the same colour as it was when I left the house - which indicates an easy run for me Average pace 9.30mm.

I feel like this week is the real test for me, following HHI1 so tonight I have 8m, tomorrow 5, rest fri, 8 sat and LSR 17 on sunday. I haven't registered for the marathon, as long as I make it through this week ok I will register on sunday before the price goes up another tenner!

As for marathon pace, I still haven't a clue. Ran the Frank Duffy 10 mile at an average pace of 8.55mm (most miles were quicker than this but 2 slow miles around the hills slowed me down to 9+ mm which reduced my average pace). I felt I pushed myself to 90% effort for this race. Didn't do 100% incase I collapsed! And didn't want to run at a more comfortable pace as I was trying to beat last years time.

AuldManKing

Casey78 wrote: »

Has dented my confidence a little. Went out last night for first time since Saturday and struggled through a 4mile run at 10min/mile pace.
Last week I managed 15miles at 9'40 pace...
Feeling a bit like I'm going backwards.

Don't let it dent your confidence, as I said before, the 10 miler is a monster session, it takes a while to recover from but the fitness you get from it takes 7-10 days for the adaptations to work through.
I bet this time next week you'll find 15 miles at 9:40 pace fairly ok.

For what it's worth, my legs are still tired from it. I tried 4 x1m tempo today and struggled on every mile.

Pacing Mule

menoscemo wrote: »

In fairness your mileage has been much higher than most novice marathoners (it certainly would be much higher than i did for my first- 4;15 off a 1:47 half btw) so you have a better chance than most.
In saying that the endurance required to hold a decent, aggressive marathon pace for 26.2 miles is something that is built up over years and years. I still think targetting sub 3:45 is a bit aggressive to be honest. Even dropping to a target of (e.g.) 3:50 might make things seem an awful lot easier.

Hi Meno

Your post raises an interesting question. How much of a gap is there between decent and perhaps too agressive pace and comfortably easy / more realistic ?

I see here that you are suggesting a 5 min change as an example. So an 11 second drop in pace may be enough to move from unrealistic to something a bit more realistic. I'm not implying that the 3:50 would be comfortably easy just to be clear. But it is very interesting to see that such a small drop in pace can move goalposts that much.

AuldManKing

adrian522 wrote: »

Thanks, 3:50 would make Marathon pace closer to 8:45 which sounds a lot more manageable over the longer distance.

As I said above I'm more than happy to out very conservatively for my first one.

I bet every runner on Boards who has ran multiple marathons wished they had done their 1st one more conservatively.

There's something about your 1st time and going slower..........ahem.

yaboya1

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Hi Meno

Your post raises an interesting question. How much of a gap is there between decent and perhaps too agressive pace and comfortably easy / more realistic ?

I see here that you are suggesting a 5 min change as an example. So an 11 second drop in pace may be enough to move from unrealistic to something a bit more realistic. I'm not implying that the 3:50 would be comfortably easy just to be clear. But it is very interesting to see that such a small drop in pace can move goalposts that much.

I ran 1:47 in the HM ahead of my first marathon. I aimed for 3:40 on the day as I felt that's what I was capable of. My last 9 miles were hell and I scraped in 24 seconds below my target. If I'd been a little more conservative and gone with the 3:45 pacers, I'm sure I'd have done it far more comfortably and enjoyed it more than I did. 11 seconds a mile is quite a lot imo.

yaboya1

AuldManKing wrote: »

I bet every runner on Boards who has ran multiple marathons wished they had done their 1st one more conservatively.

There's something about your 1st time and going slower..........ahem.

+1
See above :rolleyes:

menoscemo

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Hi Meno

Your post raises an interesting question. How much of a gap is there between decent and perhaps too agressive pace and comfortably easy / more realistic ?

I see here that you are suggesting a 5 min change as an example. So an 11 second drop in pace may be enough to move from unrealistic to something a bit more realistic. I'm not implying that the 3:50 would be comfortably easy just to be clear. But it is very interesting to see that such a small drop in pace can move goalposts that much.

Yeah a small change can really move the goalposts.
You see a lot of guys going for sub 3 marathons who are just not quite there yet and end up running 3;15-3;20; whereas if they had went out a 3:02-3:03 pace they most likely would have gotten around comfortably.

Even in my First marathon I was confident enough of a sub 4, but got caught well behind the pacers at the start on the day (my own fault, ended up going to the loo before the start). I ended up catching up with them over the first 5 miles which was a huge mistake. Those extra 15-20 seconds/mile over the first 5 miles (probably about 90 seconds in total) ended up costing me over 15 minutes in the last 10k!!

Joleigh

Laois_Man wrote: »

There are loads of foam rolling video's on YouTube. But does anyone know an especially good one?

I thought I was foam rolling my calfs correctly (knee to ankle) until I watched a youtube video and it said I should be rolling side to side. I used this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khC5J1lkC7s

ChadHogan

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm wondering how everyone's legs are after the race on Saturday? Be careful this week as recovery is important.
Has the race made you more confident or less confident of your marathon time??

Feeling good since Saturday. Still buzzing following a good result. Did 3 miles recovery on Sunday, Monday off and 6 miles easy last night. If anything I found it difficult to hold myself back on my 6 miles easy and ended up close to marathon pace, it felt easy following a day off i think.

I don’t think I’m any more confident in hitting my marathon target, but i am definitely more confident in the plan, I did believe the various esteemed contributors here who said the long slow easy running would pay off but it’s still amazing to see and feel the effects on race day
I would say I hadn’t run a mile sub 8:30 since June, and wasn’t sure how i’d respond to running fast (for me!). On Saturday I managed to string together 8 consecutive miles sub 7:45, and only really slowed when we hit the hills, slowest mile was 8:30.

If I can hit a pb in the half and knock out a couple of 20 mile LSRs in the meantime (longest to date is 17), I may start to feel quietly confident about expected marathon performance. At the moment, my main goal would be sub 4 hours, and maybe sub 3:50 if everything goes well between now and then but i’m not going to set a target until after the half marathon. I currently have my training paces set for a 3:50 finish. Mcmillan gives me a projected finish time of 3:36 but i’m not entertaining anything close to that.

AuldManKing

ChadHogan wrote: »

I currently have my training paces set for a 3:50 finish. Mcmillan gives me a projected finish time of 3:36 but i’m not entertaining anything close to that.

See how you feel after the half marathon.
The 3:40 pacers are quite good

adrian522

AuldManKing wrote: »

See how you feel after the half marathon.
The 3:40 pacers are quite good

Are the pacers every 10 mins yeah?