DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

yaboya1

digger2d2 wrote: »

I would disagree with you on this one Adrian (and not just because I'm defending the honour of pacers )

By all means make the pacing mistakes in lead up races but don't fook around with your goal race and your first marathon.

There is a lot to be gained from just being in that ''group'', collective goal and all that. Genuinely, I've seen other runners as well as pacers helping novices through the couple of bad spells to go on and achieve their goal. The achievement is the same whether you run the 26.2 alone and barefoot as it is dressed in hi-viz lycra, €140 running shoes, a Garmin the size of a football field and the assistance of a pacing group. Get the fist one done and then you'll be better positioned to make those decisions going forward. Just my 2 cents worth anyway.

+1
The first year I ran Dublin, running with the pacing group was one of my favourite things about the race. The camaraderie was unbelievable. Unfortunately I was unable to stay with them until the end

adrian522

Thanks lads, I was more talking about the half than the full when I posted above as I aim to be running for 1:45 and there are no pacers for that time anyway, but I'll bear the above in mind for late October.

kit3

digger2d2 wrote: »

I would disagree with you on this one Adrian (and not just because I'm defending the honour of pacers )

By all means make the pacing mistakes in lead up races but don't fook around with your goal race and your first marathon.

There is a lot to be gained from just being in that ''group'', collective goal and all that. Genuinely, I've seen other runners as well as pacers helping novices through the couple of bad spells to go on and achieve their goal. The achievement is the same whether you run the 26.2 alone and barefoot as it is dressed in hi-viz lycra, €140 running shoes, a Garmin the size of a football field and the assistance of a pacing group. Get the fist one done and then you'll be better positioned to make those decisions going forward. Just my 2 cents worth anyway.

+1 pacers do a great job - would highly recommend them

ciaranmac

I did the Corrib Mask HM last Sunday, was hoping for a decent run but really just wanted to see if I could get all the way round without needing to walk any. Started at the back of the field of about 50 runners, ran with one guy for a bit, chatted about the GAA and then kicked on after a mile or two. Further on I caught up with another runner and kept pace with her for about 8 miles, cheered on by her fan club which was nice. Kept each other honest - we each admitted we would have walked a bit if we were running solo. Thanks for the company and the jellies With about 2 miles to go I felt strong so I went for it, finished at 10k pace and crossed the line in 2:24 - not going to threaten any decent runners any time soon but it was a PB by 13 minutes. Only one walking break - at the first water station because I didn't want to spill it, which I say doesn't count. At the finish line I felt like I could have done a second lap, which makes me feel good about the long runs I've planned this month and my DCM goal of 5 hours. Though after standing around with tea and very good scones I could barely walk back to the car.

4 mile run last night, legs more stiff and sore than any point during the race. That's what a RR is about, right?

I've also learned it's a bad idea to bring a roll of fruit pastilles as the paper dissolves into rain and sweat.

Firedance

rockwell wrote: »

It’s with a heavy heart that I have say DCM training is over for me. Had pain in my left foot last week on my runs and following some scans it appears I have slight damage around the talus bone. Consultant plans to bring me in for a cortisone injection but has told me to stop the running. It would have been great to have done one marathon but there is no point in feeling sorry for myself I’ve just got to get on with things and find a new sport with less impact on the joints. I’ve enjoyed the training and this forum has been a great help.
I’ll be watching with interest how you all get on. There is amazing training going on , over 7,000 miles as group, so keep it up and stay positive

sorry to hear that too Rockwell.

Gavlor

digger2d2 wrote: »

I would disagree with you on this one Adrian (and not just because I'm defending the honour of pacers )

By all means make the pacing mistakes in lead up races but don't fook around with your goal race and your first marathon.

There is a lot to be gained from just being in that ''group'', collective goal and all that. Genuinely, I've seen other runners as well as pacers helping novices through the couple of bad spells to go on and achieve their goal. The achievement is the same whether you run the 26.2 alone and barefoot as it is dressed in hi-viz lycra, €140 running shoes, a Garmin the size of a football field and the assistance of a pacing group. Get the fist one done and then you'll be better positioned to make those decisions going forward. Just my 2 cents worth anyway.

This is your first ever serious post. Are you feeling ok or has claralara hacked your account again?

Maybe you should go grab a beer and watch some midget porn just to get you back on track....

digger2d2

Gavlor wrote: »

This is your first ever serious post. Are you feeling ok or has claralara hacked your account again?

Maybe you should go grab a beer and watch some midget porn just to get you back on track....

Haha, I do have the odd lapse into adulthood now and again

Kop On

Definitely late to the party here. Only discovered this thread a week ago and have spent hours since then catching up bit by bit each day. Disappointed I didn’t come across the thread sooner as there is some great information in it, especially for a novice like me, getting ready for my first marathon on Oct 27. Now that I’m up to date on the thread looking forward to following it from now till the big day, as I’ve plenty to learn!

Have answered the questions posted on page 1 to give an idea of where I’m at:

• Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
Best 5K is 25:15 (St Patricks Festival 2014), Best 10K is 52:19 (Great Ireland Run 2013), Did Frank Duffy 2014 in 87 mins.

• Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training ? (No problem if you do)
No

• How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
Currently doing 3 short runs during the week and a long run at the weekend.

• What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
Not sure yet about finishing time. Hoping to do half marathon just under 2hrs so guessing my Marathon time will be somewhere around 4hrs 30mins, need to work this out closer to the time I think.

• How many days a week can you train?
As mentioned above, Training 4 days a week. 3 short runs during the week and 1 long run on Saturdays. Don’t think I could do much more.

• Why are you running this marathon?
Has always been an ambition (or pipe dream). Found a 16 week training plan on July 7 (exactly 16 weeks before Oct 27) and decided to go for it.

Few other points:
Did a 20K run on Saturday in the Phoenix Park, longest ever run in 1hr 53 mins so was happy with that. Had my first experiment with gels (used a Kinetica Tropical Orange). Took the gel after 10K, to be honest having never run 20K before (18K was my previous longest) I am not sure how much of an impact the gel had. It certainly didn’t hinder me anyway.

Did a short 6.5K run last night, legs were like lead and struggled from the start. Calf muscle was very sore afterwards, definitely feels like a strain or pull. Will ice it later on again and have soak in bath and hope it’s ok for an 11K run tomorrow night.

Lastly, apologies for using Km’s instead of Miles. My next challenge is to begin measuring my goals and times in miles, have always just used Km’s!

flogen

Got out for my first run since the forced break last night - it was a very slow 6 miles, and while I could feel a little pressure on my calf there was no pain. Feels fine so far today too.

I was waiting until that was under my belt before I signed up for the half marathon later this month, so I'm locked in to that now. Will be sure to take the rest of the week at any easy pace to see how things hold up, though!

Thanks again for the various help and advice.

ecoli

Kop On wrote: »

Definitely late to the party here. Only discovered this thread a week ago and have spent hours since then catching up bit by bit each day. Disappointed I didn’t come across the thread sooner as there is some great information in it, especially for a novice like me, getting ready for my first marathon on Oct 27. Now that I’m up to date on the thread looking forward to following it from now till the big day, as I’ve plenty to learn!

Have answered the questions posted on page 1 to give an idea of where I’m at:

• Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
Best 5K is 25:15 (St Patricks Festival 2014), Best 10K is 52:19 (Great Ireland Run 2013), Did Frank Duffy 2014 in 87 mins.

• Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training ? (No problem if you do)
No

• How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
Currently doing 3 short runs during the week and a long run at the weekend.

• What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
Not sure yet about finishing time. Hoping to do half marathon just under 2hrs so guessing my Marathon time will be somewhere around 4hrs 30mins, need to work this out closer to the time I think.

• How many days a week can you train?
As mentioned above, Training 4 days a week. 3 short runs during the week and 1 long run on Saturdays. Don’t think I could do much more.

• Why are you running this marathon? Has always been an ambition (or pipe dream).
Found a 16 week training plan on July 7 (exactly 16 weeks before Oct 27) and decided to go for it.

Few other points:
Did a 20K run on Saturday in the Phoenix Park, longest ever run in 1hr 53 mins so was happy with that. Had my first experiment with gels (used a Kinetica Tropical Orange). Took the gel after 10K, to be honest having never run 20K before (18K was my previous longest) I am not sure how much of an impact the gel had. It certainly didn’t hinder me anyway.

Did a short 6.5K run last night, legs were like lead and struggled from the start. Calf muscle was very sore afterwards, definitely feels like a strain or pull. Will ice it later on again and have soak in bath and hope it’s ok for an 11K run tomorrow night.

Lastly, apologies for using Km’s instead of Miles. My next challenge is to begin measuring my goals and times in miles, have always just used Km’s!

Welcome on board Kop On

Just highlighted one point, looking at your recent 20k I would say one of two things is happening

1) Underestimating your HM ability
2) Running your long run too fast

The second of these is a common pitfall many suffer from at all level of abilities. Given how you felt 2 days later I would say maybe slow the pace down a small bit on these runs and just focus on time on your feet and you will find you will actually benefit more

One of the most important principles of running is Stress and Adapt. If you are unrecovered your body is unable to build back up and get stronger and fitter.

If you take weights as a example, weight training tears the muscle and breaks it down, it is only through recovery that they repair and get bigger.

You don't have to flog yourself in training. Training smarter rather than hard and I can assure you it will stand to you

Ososlo

rockwell wrote: »

It’s with a heavy heart that I have say DCM training is over for me. Had pain in my left foot last week on my runs and following some scans it appears I have slight damage around the talus bone. Consultant plans to bring me in for a cortisone injection but has told me to stop the running. It would have been great to have done one marathon but there is no point in feeling sorry for myself I’ve just got to get on with things and find a new sport with less impact on the joints. I’ve enjoyed the training and this forum has been a great help.
I’ll be watching with interest how you all get on. There is amazing training going on , over 7,000 miles as group, so keep it up and stay positive

That sucks really sorry to hear that
I wouldn't rule out running forever.
See what happens over the next few months. ..
best of luck with recovery and thanks for your imput over the last few months.

Ososlo

rockwell wrote: »

It’s with a heavy heart that I have say DCM training is over for me. Had pain in my left foot last week on my runs and following some scans it appears I have slight damage around the talus bone. Consultant plans to bring me in for a cortisone injection but has told me to stop the running. It would have been great to have done one marathon but there is no point in feeling sorry for myself I’ve just got to get on with things and find a new sport with less impact on the joints. I’ve enjoyed the training and this forum has been a great help.
I’ll be watching with interest how you all get on. There is amazing training going on , over 7,000 miles as group, so keep it up and stay positive

That sucks really sorry to hear that
I wouldn't rule out running forever.
See what happens over the next few months. ..
best of luck with recovery and thanks for your imput over the last few months.

SoundoftheSea

Sorry to hear your out Rockwell and hope you find something you enjoy as much as running to keep you strong until you can get back on the road.

15 Miles done on Sunday. I took a gel for the first time at mile 10, not sure if it made much difference. I think I will stick with the lucozade. I have started carrying a bottle on the LSR and I have got use to that as I hate belts.
I think I will train with water and lucozade only to reflect what I will do on the day and just try to fuel up properly before hand to keep hunger pangs at bay.
4 miles this evening were hard as I think I did the 15 a little to fast, average pace 11.45. Should have kept it at an average pace of 12:00.
Epson salt bath tonight. So hopefully I will be able for the 8 miles tomorrow. 4 on thur and the 16 on Sat.
I think this will be a very tough week but one that will either make me or break me.

Just a quick question about runners. I bought a new pair early July do you think they will be ok for DCM or should I get another pair now?

Ososlo

SoundoftheSea wrote: »

Sorry to hear your out Rockwell and hope you find something you enjoy as much as running to keep you strong until you can get back on the road.

15 Miles done on Sunday. I took a gel for the first time at mile 10, not sure if it made much difference. I think I will stick with the lucozade. I have started carrying a bottle on the LSR and I have got use to that as I hate belts.
I think I will train with water and lucozade only to reflect what I will do on the day and just try to fuel up properly before hand to keep hunger pangs at bay.
4 miles this evening were hard as I think I did the 15 a little to fast, average pace 11.45. Should have kept it at an average pace of 12:00.
Epson salt bath tonight. So hopefully I will be able for the 8 miles tomorrow. 4 on thur and the 16 on Sat.
I think this will be a very tough week but one that will either make me or break me.

Just a quick question about runners. I bought a new pair early July do you think they will be ok for DCM or should I get another pair now?

Bear in mind that you will be running a bit faster on the big day than you are in training so you might need a little extra sustenance to keep energy levels up for the duration of the marathon. If you don't like gels (who does!) try bringing food with you instead like jellys. You might not think the gels are doing anything for you, but they are calories and you do need to take on calories during the marathon for energy. I'd be a bit concerned that lucozade on its own might not be enough to keep you well fuelled.
I think your runners should be fine. However, if finances allow, I'd suggest having another pair on standby. It's always good to have a second pair to rotate if they get excessively wet in training and are not well dried out for your next run.

hillsiderunner

rockwell wrote: »

It’s with a heavy heart that I have say DCM training is over for me. Had pain in my left foot last week on my runs and following some scans it appears I have slight damage around the talus bone. Consultant plans to bring me in for a cortisone injection but has told me to stop the running. It would have been great to have done one marathon but there is no point in feeling sorry for myself I’ve just got to get on with things and find a new sport with less impact on the joints. I’ve enjoyed the training and this forum has been a great help.
I’ll be watching with interest how you all get on. There is amazing training going on , over 7,000 miles as group, so keep it up and stay positive

Very wise decision there, when cortisone injections are involved it's time to listen to the doc and stop the running... can worry about a return to the pavements if/when it's properly sorted out.

I have been a bit disturbed by the injury reports of Laois_Man on this forum - that's a *lot* of niggles. Remember that DCM will still be here next year.

I have been gentle with my own niggles - the slightly stiff achilles, plus a tightness at the outside of my left knee (which kicked in after Sunday's 17miles). I broke out in a rash of common sense this evening and skipped the interval session (now 3 weeks in a row missed :-( ...) and headed out for 4 gentle miles running round the block near my house.... turned out that was the right approach, as I finished with 2.25 miles at 9:10 pace. The achilles was fine throughout and didn't even need the warming-up phase, but around 2miles I again felt the rubbing on the outside of the left knee. This is the leg which used to have ITB problems about 5 years ago so I stopped the run. It's not inflamed, and there is no pain, only a bit of friction ... but I'll have to keep an eye on it.

YourPaceOrMine

Can someone explain to me how I'm suppose to run this marathon at anything faster than training pace, which is 10.30. Long run on Saturday was 21.5 miles and I couldn't have gone a second faster, well maybe at the beginning but then I would have been totally dead at 21 miles....instead of just half dead.

Ososlo

YourPaceOrMine wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how I'm suppose to run this marathon at anything faster than training pace, which is 10.30. Long run on Saturday was 21.5 miles and I couldn't have gone a second faster, well maybe at the beginning but then I would have been totally dead at 21 miles....instead of just half dead.

Is it possible you're running your lsr too fast? It should feel like a very easy effort throughout. You're running with someone right? Can you easily chat on the run?

Obviously you get very tired and maybe a bit sore from all the pounding after a few hours but the pace/effort of jogging shouldn't feel too hard.

What are your splits like? Do you slow a lot as the run goes on?

menoscemo

YourPaceOrMine wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how I'm suppose to run this marathon at anything faster than training pace, which is 10.30. Long run on Saturday was 21.5 miles and I couldn't have gone a second faster, well maybe at the beginning but then I would have been totally dead at 21 miles....instead of just half dead.

To be perfectly honest, if you couldn't have done it a second faster then you shouldn't have done it at that pace in the first place...

ChadHogan

menoscemo wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, if you couldn't have done it a second faster then you shouldn't have done it at that pace in the first place...

Or is it possible that 21.5 miles was too far at this point in the training? With still 8 weeks to go I don't think I'd panicking even if that is the case. I'm not exactly familiar with how yourpaceormine's training has progressed, so I'm asking the question from a position of ignorance.

I know at the end of my LSRs I don't think I can run much further than the prescribed distance. I was under the impression that was ok. As you are building on the mileage week by week, and the main difference with the Marathon is it's done on fresh legs.

Please forgive me for repeating what I have learned on here as if I came up with it myself!

YourPaceOrMine

Ososlo wrote: »

Is it possible you're running your lsr too fast? It should feel like a very easy effort throughout. You're running with someone right? Can you easily chat on the run?

Obviously you get very tired and maybe a bit sore from all the pounding after a few hours but the pace/effort of jogging shouldn't feel too hard.

What are your splits like? Do you slow a lot as the run goes on?

I don't think I'm running them too fast, conversation is flowing and it doesn't feel like effort until the last few miles when the legs are stinging and my body is tired, which I think would happen even if I was running slower. I know your suppose to finish the runs with something left, a mile or two... I could have done that Saturday if I needed to. I just can't get my head around how in 8 weeks I'm going to run the extra 5 miles and at an overall faster pace without burning out around 20 miles.

Ososlo

YourPaceOrMine wrote: »

I don't think I'm running them too fast, conversation is flowing and it doesn't feel like effort until the last few miles when the legs are stinging and my body is tired, which I think would happen even if I was running slower. I know your suppose to finish the runs with something left, a mile or two... I could have done that Saturday if I needed to. I just can't get my head around how in 8 weeks I'm going to run the extra 5 miles and at an overall faster pace without burning out around 20 miles.

Is your target marathon pace realistic? If so then you've just got to trust the training you're doing. It feels a lot easier in a race environment and you'll be well rested with a good taper.

ecoli

YourPaceOrMine wrote: »

I don't think I'm running them too fast, conversation is flowing and it doesn't feel like effort until the last few miles when the legs are stinging and my body is tired, which I think would happen even if I was running slower. I know your suppose to finish the runs with something left, a mile or two... I could have done that Saturday if I needed to. I just can't get my head around how in 8 weeks I'm going to run the extra 5 miles and at an overall faster pace without burning out around 20 miles.

The thing is at the moment it should feel difficult. Your body will be tired from the cumulative miles week in and week out but there will be two factors which you didn't have on saturday;

1) Taper, don't underestimate the power of fresh legs
2) Crowds of spectators and runners alike around you providing you with a buzz that you will only get on race day

It will be tough there is no double about that especially if its your first marathon but you will surprise yourself with how much you will come on over the next 8 weeks

JohnDozer

I think most of us think similarly around this... With most of the plans, we are doing most of the runs with legs and bodies that are not fully recovered, but are building speed, fitness and endurance with each week that passes. The plans are designed such a way that we are practising the pace for the day on shorter runs and time on feet on the long runs. The race day itself is the culmination of those two elements of the training. The taper period then allows the body get refreshed to give us the best chance of pulling it off. I think just from reading feedback of peoples long runs from last weekend in particular, shows we are all having similar doubts about holding the pace for the duration. I know I am!

JohnDozer

Oops! What they said ^^^

menoscemo

ChadHogan wrote: »

Or is it possible that 21.5 miles was too far at this point in the training? With still 8 weeks to go I don't think I'd panicking even if that is the case. I'm not exactly familiar with how yourpaceormine's training has progressed, so I'm asking the question from a position of ignorance.

I know at the end of my LSRs I don't think I can run much further than the prescribed distance. I was under the impression that was ok. As you are building on the mileage week by week, and the main difference with the Marathon is it's done on fresh legs.

Please forgive me for repeating what I have learned on here as if I came up with it myself!

That does happen to a certain extent. Pacers, even when pacing a marathon that is 30-40 minutes outside their ability will still get tired legs around mile 20. Sometimes you can feel like you don't want to run any further, but you should always be capable of picking up the pace near the end if it were necessary. I am assuming that yourpaceormine didn't just run 21.5 miles out of the blue but has built up to that distance over the long runs.
We can also always have a bad day where running at any pace is tough; that's ok, it happen to us all. But you shouldn't be finishing all your long runs feeling like you couldn't have gone a second faster. that gives the impression that you are effectively 'racing' your long runs which is not the purpose of LSRs

As an aside; taper will help the legs absorb all the training and be fresh on the day. This should help give you a bit of extra time but it is not a miracle and you won't gain minutes per mile. You need to be running the majority of your long runs aerobically within yourself (not breathing heavily and not feeling like you are forcing the pace) and put in a bit more effort on the big day itself. A good test for this is by picking up the pace towards the end of some of your long runs; you should be able to get up to marathon pace for the last 3-4 miles.

gingersnap

Followed Saturday's 16 mile LSR with a 3 mile recovery run on Sunday and then did 7 miles yesterday for my "medium long run". So that's marathon distance in three days
I'd not sure what pace I should be doing the medium run at. Should it be as slow as the long run? I'm running this a bit quicker, about 10 min miles compared to 11 for the LSR.
Went to the running club tonight for a speed session but didn't really push it too hard. With the run over and back that's another 5 miles. I'm going to take it easy tomorrow.

Ososlo

gingersnap wrote: »

Followed Saturday's 16 mile LSR with a 3 mile recovery run on Sunday and then did 7 miles yesterday for my "medium long run". So that's marathon distance in three days
I'd not sure what pace I should be doing the medium run at. Should it be as slow as the long run? I'm running this a bit quicker, about 10 min miles compared to 11 for the LSR.
Went to the running club tonight for a speed session but didn't really push it too hard. With the run over and back that's another 5 miles. I'm going to take it easy tomorrow.

Not sure what plan you're following but if it's just a general aerobic run (not marathon pace or anything else specific) then yes keep it all very easy and relaxed.

AuldManKing

Just wondering Ososlo, will you be tapering 'off' this log as a sudden stop in late October may be too sudden a change for you!

Just what will you do with your time from Nov onwards!

Ososlo

AuldManKing wrote: »

Just wondering Ososlo, will you be tapering 'off' this log as a sudden stop in late October may be too sudden a change for you!

Just what will you do with your time from Nov onwards!

Don't worry about me at all. I have plans. Big plans for all that extra time;)
It'll involve a lot of doubles:D:D:D:D

gingersnap

Ososlo wrote: »

Not sure what plan you're following but if it's just a general aerobic run (not marathon pace or anything else specific) then yes keep it all very easy and relaxed.

I'm following a mix of a few plans! It is mainly a LSR and recovery run at the weekend and two club sessions mid-week (Tuesday and Thursday). I have also one other run going up to 10 miles on a Monday. As the club sessions are generally hard, I will keep this one easy. Thanks Ososlo.