Socialist paradise Venezuela introduces food rationing

jank

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/02/us-venezuela-food-idUSBREA410PJ20140502

(Reuters) - President Nicolas Maduro is introducing a controversial shopping card intended to combat Venezuela's food shortages but decried by critics as a Cuban-style policy illustrating the failure of his socialist policies.

The late Chavez is credited with vastly improving the availability of food to the poor during his 14-year-rule through subsidized grocery stores.

The network expanded thanks to rising oil revenue and nationalizations of private supermarkets, boosting consumption of protein and helping Venezuelans eat more and better.

But his policies also paved the way for today's food supply problems. Currency controls have restricted dollars available to import wheat, milk and toilet paper.

Stringent price controls often require products to be sold below cost, pushing many merchants to sell unregulated goods.

Just goes to show that time and again when the state interferes and tries to centrally manage an economy disaster awaits around the corner. Those old enough can remember images of long lines of people queing for basic food products in Russia and the old eastern block. Similar lines can now been seen in Venezuela in 2014. Needless to say things will get worse before it gets better but the end is nigh if history is to be any judge.

darkpagandeath

Were not doing much better and were a capitalist paradise. top 1% have 10% of the wealth.

hjkl

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Were not doing much better and were a capitalist paradise. top 1% have 10% of the wealth.

No we're not. We're a mixture of both capitalism and socialism.

darkpagandeath

frimpong wrote: »

No we're not. We're a mixture of both capitalism and socialism.

Socialist minority in government, How many of their policy's have been implemented since they came in ? And is the Troika not capitalist they have been effectively running the country for the last number of years.

OneEightSeven

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Were not doing much better and were a capitalist paradise. top 1% have 10% of the wealth.

You're just grumpy because you didn't get your food rations today.

pO1Neil

Weren't the scientists at Leinster house handing out cheese to our population on the dole a year or two ago?

darkpagandeath

Was that not the EU cheese

hjkl

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Socialist minority in government, How many of their policy's have been implemented since they came in ? And is the Troika not capitalist they have been effectively running the country for the last number of years.

Ireland is not pure capitalist. No European country is. If the country was pure capitalist there would be no social welfare, child benefit, social housing, student grants etc.

pO1Neil

frimpong wrote: »

Ireland is not pure capitalist. No European country is. If the country was pure capitalist there would be no social welfare, child benefit, social housing, student grants etc.

Do any workers in a EU country control the means of production yet?

I am pie

Anyone misguided enough to think Ireland isn't much better than Venezuela should pay a visit to Caracas whereupon reality would kick them square in the face.

Perspective is a scarce quality.

hjkl

pO1Neil wrote: »

Do any workers in a EU country control the means of production yet?

No that would be a pure socialist system, which we also do not have.

A few people on this thread seem to be having trouble understanding that the world isn't black and white.

jank

I am pie wrote: »

Anyone misguided enough to think Ireland isn't much better than Venezuela should pay a visit to Caracas whereupon reality would kick them square in the face.

Perspective is a scarce quality.

If there ever was a government program I would support it would be a 'cultural' exchange program whereby the biggest moaners and whingers are flown to places like Venezuela or Cambodia or India or mulitple places in Africa and see what real poverty actually looks like. They will all go home with a sense of perspective and thank their lucky stars that they were born in a country that has given them so much...

Gyalist

How about for some context to this post? Are the Venezuelan government just doing it for the craic?

titan18

frimpong wrote: »

Ireland is not pure capitalist. No European country is. If the country was pure capitalist there would be no social welfare, child benefit, social housing, student grants etc.

I'd love to live in that country.

Arthur Beesley

We Irish don't know how good we have it.

bumper234

jank wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/02/us-venezuela-food-idUSBREA410PJ20140502





Just goes to show that time and again when the state interferes and tries to centrally manage an economy disaster awaits around the corner. Those old enough can remember images of long lines of people queing for basic food products in Russia and the old eastern block. Similar lines can now been seen in Venezuela in 2014. Needless to say things will get worse before it gets better but the end is nigh if history is to be any judge.

In before some regular posters claim that this report is only being released now because it is politically motivated to undermine sinn fein in the run up.to the European elections

Guy:Incognito

pO1Neil wrote: »

Weren't the scientists at Leinster house handing out cheese to our population on the dole a year or two ago?

No. But the EU have all over Europe for years.

It's just funnier to say "oh look at those silly paddys give the people free cheese"

Guy:Incognito

titan18 wrote: »

I'd love to live in that country.

Till you ended up out of work, sick , with kids to educate and pay for.

Blowfish

Gyalist wrote: »

How about for some context to this post? Are the Venezuelan government just doing it for the craic?

The Venezuelan government nationalized (read stole) a lot of resources from private companies. Predictably enough, they then mismanaged them horribly, including using the governments energy company as a piggy bank to try and keep their exchange rate low.

It worked...for a bit, but the mismanagement (oil production is slowly dropping), distortion of the market (through price controls) and disincentive to invest (why invest in setting up a company if the government is just going to steal it from you through 'nationalisation'?) has caused to Venezuelan economy to weaken to the point that the official exchange rate (6.3 bolivars to the dollar) is an order of magnitude off (on the black market, it's 80-90 to the dollar). Anything imported is getting more and more expensive for the ordinary Venezuelan and now we've reached the point where food is getting too expensive for them.

Guy:Incognito

Blowfish wrote: »

The Venezuelan government nationalized (read stole) a lot of resources from private companies. Predictably enough, they then mismanaged them horribly, including using the governments energy company as a piggy bank to try and keep their exchange rate low.

It worked...for a bit, but the mismanagement (oil production is slowly dropping), distortion of the market (through price controls) and disincentive to invest (why invest in setting up a company if the government is just going to steal it from you through 'nationalisation'?) has caused to Venezuelan economy to weaken to the point that the official exchange rate (6.3 bolivars to the dollar) is an order of magnitude off (on the black market, it's 80-90 to the dollar). Anything imported is getting more and more expensive for the ordinary Venezuelan and now we've reached the point where food is getting too expensive for them.

I see their problem right there. Their currency seems to be Bolivian people.

Tail Docker

jank wrote: »

Just goes to show that time and again when the state interferes and tries to centrally manage an economy disaster awaits around the corner. Those old enough can remember images of long lines of people queing for basic food products in Russia and the old eastern block. Similar lines can now been seen in Venezuela in 2014. Needless to say things will get worse before it gets better but the end is nigh if history is to be any judge.

Depends entirely on which State you meant by "Interferes". If you meant outside states, fair enough - the Venezuelans are much shat-upon by bigger powers..

Mayweather vs Maidana

Cue an end endless debate about what real capitalism and socialism are and how there are no true examples of them.

Allowing the government to run businesses generally speaking is a bad idea, it is inefficient and wastes resources, allowing profit maximisers to run businesses is a much more leads to a more efficient use of resources, which ultimately is what wealth is.

Blowfish

Tail Docker wrote: »

Depends entirely on which State you meant by "Interferes". If you meant outside states, fair enough - the Venezuelans are much shat-upon by bigger powers..

Their GDP is growing and they've a significant trade surplus, yet there are shortages of even the basics of food, medicine and electricity, why do you think that is? It wasn't any outside states that caused this, but the Venezuelan governments ludicrous economic controls.

Gyalist

Tail Docker wrote: »

Depends entirely on which State you meant by "Interferes". If you meant outside states, fair enough - the Venezuelans are much shat-upon by bigger powers..

Indeed. These days these outside powers don't even need to invade. They do it by setting up Trojan Horse NGOs who, ostensibly, are meant to be spreading democracy but end up funding and promoting regime change.

wendell borton

pO1Neil wrote: »

Do any workers in a EU country control the means of production yet?

It not a failure of socialism but of democratic centralism.

There was a very successful co-op movement in this country like Kerry and glanbia who are world players now , but have become limited companies and now are just another multi national looking to make a quick buck keep the shareholders happy.
A return to genuine co-op's is the only way rural Ireland can be sustainably in the future for small farmers and sme's.

Boombastic

pO1Neil wrote: »

Weren't the scientists at Leinster house handing out cheese to our population on the dole a year or two ago?

it had nothing to do with if you were on the dole or not, it was given on the basis of who you know I got a couple of kgs of it.





Venezuela should take a leaf out of our book, imagining giving it to everyone :rolleyes: don't they realise some of us are more worthy of free stuff than others?

Calibos

Ship the Anti-Austerity crowd over there on the first junket. We haven't had any austerity in this country. We've had reduced spending and bringing back some taxes/charges that exist in every other developed country but which we got rid of over the last few decades to buy elections. Unfortunate they all had to be brought back in such a short space of time but not unfortunate that they were brought back. The evil Troika? Yes, so evil they gave us enough breathing room to bring our budget deficit back to sane levels without having to impose much if any austerity at all. Our children will be paying for this/the evil bondbholders for ever??? Our children always have and always will have a national debt to pay off. Its just that our gob****e government with their policies effectively blew the last 2 decades of paying the NB down and reset the national debt to 1990 levels. We paid it down in the last 2 decades and after the reset we'll pay it down again. No biggie!!

We don't know how lucky we are in this country compared to the rest of the 'West' never mind how lucky the 'West' is compared to the 'Rest'

drumswan

Calibos wrote: »

We paid it down in the last 2 decades and after the reset we'll pay it down again. No biggie!!

Can you explain how we pay down a debt of 180bn while running a deficit so?

We are an economic basket case, need to be looking closer to home before disparaging other countries economies.

wes

How is this any different than the proliferation of food banks across the UK for example? Its seems extremes in both systems are failures.

suicide_circus

I live near an "english school" whose "students" are almost exclusively Venezuelan. Things must be rough there if they're coming to this economy to "learn english".

Wibbs

titan18 wrote: »

I'd love to live in that country.

I wouldn't. Sure it sounds great when you're doing OK while working hard watching some on social welfare apparently having it "handed to them on a plate" and yes that shít needs looking at. That said the danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater is very high.

The way I see it is this; life isn't fair. However I also see the evolution of human society is or should be an attempt to mitigate that truism by various means, socially. economically and scientifically as much as possible. Not much more than a century ago and in the west not far off half of the people reading this wouldn't have made it to their 20th birthday. Not fair. Science(and economics) stepped in and now that "unfairness" has been massively overturned and a more level playing field in longevity is in play and few would argue that this hasn't been a major achievement. If one was to apply a pure dog eat dog, survival of the fittest type philosophy then this would never have happened.

Access to education is another area where most of western society has attempted and mostly succeeded in leveling the playing field.

Access to housing ditto.

The problem is where it's taken too far in both "pure" socialist and "pure" capitalist philosophies. Both philosophies have many merits, the trick is to apply the right merits to the problems of society. Going one way or the other won't. As Wes points out extremes in both systems are failures(though I'd not equate the UK with a purely capitalist society or anything like it). Fairness is always the casualty.

fran17

Of course the elephant in the room as always is the good old u s of a.never a shrinking violet when it comes to manipulating south American countries and there economy's.might it be ripe for a cia backed coup? Time will tell

Son Of A Vidic

I am pie wrote: »

Anyone misguided enough to think Ireland isn't much better than Venezuela should pay a visit to Caracas whereupon reality would kick them square in the face.

Perspective is a scarce quality.

And where would we have ended up if the ECB hadn't of put cash into our ATM's? Then I suppose, little Ireland did save the Euro from collapse and contagion.

Blowfish

wes wrote: »

How is this any different than the proliferation of food banks across the UK for example? Its seems extremes in both systems are failures.

The difference is that UK shops/supermarkets have plenty of food in them, where as in Venezuela the shops are empty.

It's not a poverty issue directly, it's a food (among other things) shortage caused by the governments economic policies.

Wibbs

The US as the boogyman in south American politics is an easy sell to many and has some legs in some quarters(as had Communist influences), but in many examples internal screwups, powerplays and failed policies were and are far more to blame.

Grayson

wes wrote: »

How is this any different than the proliferation of food banks across the UK for example? Its seems extremes in both systems are failures.

It's kinda different because regular supermarkets are actually running out of food in Venezuela.
In an effort to combat poverty the Chavez government opened supermarkets that sold the basics at a discounted price. This actually worked really well for years. Poverty has dropped by half, from 50% of the population to 25% of the population. This was funded by money from the oil industry.

And despite the bitching you'll hear from some middle class idiots who wouldn't know poverty if they wiped it off their feet, there are literally millions of lives that are better off because of it.

Now, however there is a problem with the basic food stuff being sold. because it's being subsidised, it's cheaper than it is in Colombia and so a load of food is being stolen and sold over the border. This has lead to shortages and queues round the block to buy bread. If you add the fact that Caracas has a higher murder rate than Baghdad (that's not an exaggeration), you see why so many people are pissed off. It's a combination of a system that is out of date and corruption.

The subsidies idea was great when it started, but it should be ended now. For a smaller number of people it makes sense to use a food stamp system rather than blanket subsidies on a range of products. This would allow the government to help the poor whilst allowing the market for products to readjust.

MRnotlob606

i wanna shake my maracas in Caracas

jimgoose

I suspect the cause of this is the same one that usually crops up in communist-ish setups like the old Soviet bloc, that is a load of bureaucrats in some central location trying and failing to match supply with demand. As an aside, Al-Jazeera theorize that the shortage is caused by "food hoarding". They don't say who exactly is doing the hoarding - Mary Harney, maybe - but I should think any hoarding that's going on there is more symptomatic than causal!

But it seems to me that the biggest problem Venezuela has, prompting the government there to attempt all sorts of extremely costly and ham-fisted "solutions", is the currency black market. Bottom line, the people seem to have little faith in their own currency and much more faith in the U.S. dollar.

Sierra Oscar

I am not surprised. Venezuela is on the verge of revolution with the ongoing protests. It is amazing that so few states are paying attention to the issue. It looks like it could become a bloody all out armed conflict in the near future.

jimgoose

suicide_circus wrote: »

I live near an "english school" whose "students" are almost exclusively Venezuelan. Things must be rough there if they're coming to this economy to "learn english".

The stark reality is that this economy is like a gated community in Beverly Hills, Ca. compared to the way people have to live in most of the world.

wes

Blowfish wrote: »

The difference is that UK shops/supermarkets have plenty of food in them, where as in Venezuela the shops are empty.

It's not a poverty issue directly, it's a food (among other things) shortage caused by the governments economic policies.

Well yes, it is different of course. I was engaging in some hyperbole.

Still, different symptoms of people taking there ideology to far in some cases.

Blowfish

Grayson wrote: »

It's kinda different because regular supermarkets are actually running out of food in Venezuela.
In an effort to combat poverty the Chavez government opened supermarkets that sold the basics at a discounted price. This actually worked really well for years. Poverty has dropped by half, from 50% of the population to 25% of the population. This was funded by money from the oil industry.

You mean it worked well until fulfilling the inevitable. To quote: "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

PopePalpatine

titan18 wrote: »

I'd love to live in that country.

As someone who survives on student grants, I wouldn't. A pure capitalist state throws the poorest under the bus under the guise of "THE MARKET WILLS IT!"

jimgoose

Grayson wrote: »

...however there is a problem with the basic food stuff being sold. because it's being subsidised, it's cheaper than it is in Colombia and so a load of food is being stolen and sold over the border. This has lead to shortages and queues round the block to buy bread. If you add the fact that Caracas has a higher murder rate than Baghdad...

This is the other, other problem that Venezuela has, and it's a problem shared by a vast swathe of South America. That is, the Civil Order. This is a game that's played with enthusiasm in every Western-style economy, and it is this that prevents the biggest, thickest ape from picking up a weapon and taking what he wants, bugger everyone else. Without the Civil Order game played properly, chaos, shortage, poverty, violence and murder are inevitable. The powers-that-be down there would do rather better to impose law and order rather than endless tinpot Castro-esque schemes like what goes on at the moment.

Elmer Blooker

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I am not surprised. Venezuela is on the verge of revolution with the ongoing protests. It is amazing that so few states are paying attention to the issue. It looks like it could become a bloody all out armed conflict in the near future.

just change Venezuela to Ukraine in above post, guess who's behind all of this?

Davarus Walrus

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

just change Venezuela to Ukraine in above post, guess who's behind all of this?

The Russians?

jimgoose

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

just change Venezuela to Ukraine in above post, guess who's behind all of this?

Phil Hogan??

Gringo180

I am pie wrote: »

Anyone misguided enough to think Ireland isn't much better than Venezuela should pay a visit to Caracas whereupon reality would kick them square in the face.

Perspective is a scarce quality.

Or else you could visit a place called Flint, Michigan in the richest most capitalist country in the world .

Suryavarman

Gringo180 wrote: »

Or else you could visit a place called Flint, Michigan in the richest most capitalist country in the world .

There is no Flint, Michigan in either Monaco (richest country) or in Hong Kong (most capitalist)

titan18

Wibbs wrote: »

I wouldn't. Sure it sounds great when you're doing OK while working hard watching some on social welfare apparently having it "handed to them on a plate" and yes that shít needs looking at. That said the danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater is very high.

The way I see it is this; life isn't fair. However I also see the evolution of human society is or should be an attempt to mitigate that truism by various means, socially. economically and scientifically as much as possible. Not much more than a century ago and in the west not far off half of the people reading this wouldn't have made it to their 20th birthday. Not fair. Science(and economics) stepped in and now that "unfairness" has been massively overturned and a more level playing field in longevity is in play and few would argue that this hasn't been a major achievement. If one was to apply a pure dog eat dog, survival of the fittest type philosophy then this would never have happened.

Access to education is another area where most of western society has attempted and mostly succeeded in leveling the playing field.

Access to housing ditto.

The problem is where it's taken too far in both "pure" socialist and "pure" capitalist philosophies. Both philosophies have many merits, the trick is to apply the right merits to the problems of society. Going one way or the other won't. As Wes points out extremes in both systems are failures(though I'd not equate the UK with a purely capitalist society or anything like it). Fairness is always the casualty.

Tbf, even though I'm from a working/barely middle-class family, I'm against socialist policies for the most part.

There has to be a basic level of care provided (e.g people shouldn't be dying of starvation, some standard of education provided etc), but it gets taken too far and you just end up subsidizing people, which if you're on about fairness, isn't really fair to be the people earning that money and having loads of it taken out in taxes.

In an ideal scenario, I'd rather low taxes and people had the responsibility to plan for themselves and their futures (e.g low pensions, no children's allowance etc). Just because some people won't plan ahead or aren't intelligent enough to, I don't see why other's should pay for them.

Obviously, there has to be a bare minimum provided, but imo, the bare minimum is too high in Ireland, and a lot of Western countries.

pO1Neil

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No. But the EU have all over Europe for years.

It's just funnier to say "oh look at those silly paddys give the people free cheese"

Fair enough I didn't honestly know that. It's strange that byumper234 liked your post tho because according to him no Irish people exist.