Transfer Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread - Summer 2014 - Mod note in OP

Turtwig

Madrid have at least 2 top quality defensive midfielders. Man Utd, have none. Balance to team is incredibly important.

Aenaes

CSF wrote: »

Real Madrid have a ridiculously balanced squad, that's such a mad example to use. Alonso and Modric did the work in that midfield so that Di Maria didn't have to, allowing him focus on what he is good at. Coentrao and Carvajal are both strong defensively. So is Pepe even if he is an absolute nutjob. Varane is the best young centre back in the world at the moment. Bale being a former fullback is obviously about as good a wide player for workrate as you can come across.

Where is this lack of balance you can speak of? It's absolutely no surprise they won the Champions League last year, I think Guardiola is the only manager right now who mightn't swap his squad of players for the one Ancelotti has.

There is no comparison to be made between Real's ability to accommodate a luxury player and United's. Real are functional throughout the pitch. No obvious weak areas in the team.

I'm talking about teams not squads.

You reference Varane even though Ramos/Pepe is the preferred partnership.

You compliment Bale on his workrate which I agree with but make no mention of the lack of Ronaldo's on the other side of the pitch.

So if Real Madrid play two midfielders alongside Di Maria it's perfect but if Manchester United do it, it simply won't work?

CSF

Aenaes wrote: »

I'm talking about teams not squads.

You reference Varane even though Ramos/Pepe is the preferred partnership.

You compliment Bale on his workrate which I agree with but make no mention of the lack of Ronaldo's on the other side of the pitch.

So if Real Madrid play two midfielders alongside Di Maria it's perfect but if Manchester United do it, it simply won't work?

This isn't a good post, teams are made from squads. You play alot of games in a season and different games need different players. Varane and Coentrao play a crucial role even if they aren't in what you would pick in your first 11 on paper.

I didn't mention Ronaldo on the other side because he isn't a defensive player at all. That's how balance works. You have enough players to frustrate the other team when they have the ball and win the ball, and that allows your flair players to do things that change the game when you have the ball. Ronaldo's role with the ball is just as important as the other players role without it. That's balance.

And yes, If Real play 2 midfielders beside Di Maria it works because of who those midfielders are. It's not the how many, it's the who. If United went out and signed Vidal and Strootman tomorrow, they could have an excellent midfield, allowing Di Maria to be the player he is. Herrera and Carrick on the other hand won't perform the same role that Modric and Alonso do (and are nowhere near as effective at any role) which allows a player like Di Maria to perform his functionally.

Smithwicks Man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The argument gets complicated if you bring players like Xavi, Busquets and defenders into it because then you are arguing how much is a great defender worth in relation to a great attacker and the answer will inevitably be less.

He's a hugely talented player that should improve their side. However I don't believe it is value for money, value for that kind of money is Ronaldo, value is Bale, value is Suarez, value is Neymar. Value isn't 59.9 million pounds for Angel Di Maria when the likes of Ozil and Sanchez have moved to England for quite a bit less.

I agree with you in the sense that I think United have overpaid for Di Maria, I can't agree with your definition of the word "value".

€90m+ for Gareth Bale was the opposite of value. United are overpaying for Di Maria, in my opinion, but Madrid overpaid for Bale by much more.

tupac_healy

Switching gears for a sec...

Benatia to Munich is a brilliant deal for them, he would conmand a start there for me, also I like Manolas that Roma have lined up to replace him, but gutted as I was looking forward to seeing Roma push Juve hard this year..... Wi be harder without Benatia

GLaDOS

Talking about value in this market is ridiculous tbh. Some players can be got at decent prices but the vast majority of transfers are horribly overpriced.

Godge

Andersonisgod wrote: »

. As I said before, I'm not at all convinced he is better than Sanchez, yet according to his fee he is, and significantly so.

That is an interesting comparison

Di Maria vs. Sanchez.

Age-wise, they are similar, nine months between them.

Both are arriving in the Premier League from one of the top two Spanish teams.

What do the stats say?

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/25244/History/Alexis-Snchez

61 goals and 38 assists in 137(44) appearances.

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/23110/History/ngel-Di-Mara

31 goals and 62 assists in 130 (38) appearances.


So different players but total goal and assists per game very similar.

Whoscored ratings of 7.27 and 7.28, very close.


Of course, you are not buying or paying for players based on historical statistics but for what they will offer in the future.

This is one to come back to as the season pans out.

Rayne Wooney

In today's market Ronaldo would cost about 159 million

tupac_healy

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Talking about value in this market is ridiculous tbh. Some players can be got at decent prices but the vast majority of transfers are horribly overpriced.

It's ture, the likes of the Abramovic have changed the transfer market for the worse in the last 10 years, he may have been the first but others have not helped, I'd include Utd in that statement too (regardless of the wealthy owner status) we've been dragged into it as have everyone else....

Wondering though, will the bubble burst or will it indeed get worse???

Aenaes

CSF wrote: »

This isn't a good post, teams are made from squads. You play alot of games in a season and different games need different players. Varane and Coentrao play a crucial role even if they aren't in what you would pick in your first 11 on paper.

I didn't mention Ronaldo on the other side because he isn't a defensive player at all. That's how balance works. You have enough players to frustrate the other team when they have the ball and win the ball, and that allows your flair players to do things that change the game when you have the ball. Ronaldo's role with the ball is just as important as the other players role without it. That's balance.

And yes, If Real play 2 midfielders beside Di Maria it works because of who those midfielders are. It's not the how many, it's the who. If United went out and signed Vidal and Strootman tomorrow, they could have an excellent midfield, allowing Di Maria to be the player he is. Herrera and Carrick on the other hand won't perform the same role that Modric and Alonso do (and are nowhere near as effective at any role) which allows a player like Di Maria to perform his functionally.

You're the one who picked holes in team selection because of imbalance but now are talking about squads.

Almost every team plays at least 4 attacking players from 4-4-2 with two strikers and wingers to 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3.

You expect Manchester United to line up with only 3 offensive players from Mata, van Persie, Rooney and Di Maria with Di Maria replacing one of the former three.
I'm not going to compare Carrick, Herrera, Modric and Alonso because you're right about their respective abilities but that's not the issue.

I'm just pointing out that playing four attacking players is viable and won't result in a major catastrophe of imbalance.

Andersonisgod

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

I agree with you in the sense that I think United have overpaid for Di Maria, I can't agree with your definition of the word "value".

€90m+ for Gareth Bale was the opposite of value. United are overpaying for Di Maria, in my opinion, but Madrid overpaid for Bale by much more.

Personally I think most major transfer fees are overpriced but I do think there is more value in Bale at €90 million than there is at Angel Di Maria £60 million. In Bale, Madrid have a player who can take up the mantle of being the premier attraction once Ronaldo is gone, as I've said, Di Maria has yet to do that.

Again I want to emphasize that I do think Di Maria is an excellent player, a wonderful component to have of a supporting cast, a bit like Jude Law, entirely talented and useful supporting actor, can't really cut it as the main actor. Sanchez, Mata, Fabregas, all wonderfully talented supporting cast players just like Di Maria, but probably not destined to be the main man at a massive club. I'm sure Di Maria will do quite well at Man Utd, he will probably continue to rack up assists and put in good levels of performance but, for me, 60 million pound should buy you more.

CSF

Aenaes wrote: »

You're the one who picked holes in team selection because of imbalance but now are talking about squads.

Almost every team plays at least 4 attacking players from 4-4-2 with two strikers and wingers to 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3.

You expect Manchester United to line up with only 3 offensive players from Mata, van Persie, Rooney and Di Maria with Di Maria replacing one of the former three.
I'm not going to compare Carrick, Herrera, Modric and Alonso because you're right about their respective abilities but that's not the issue.

I'm just pointing out that playing four attacking players is viable and won't result in a major catastrophe of imbalance.

I didn't say playing 4 attacking players isn't viable, so I don't know where you're getting that from, although it does appear you're backtracking from your initial point.

The issue is that 4 attacking players usually involves playing wingers which Mata can't really do, and it also usually involves the 2 other midfielders being capable of bossing the game as a midfield 2, which Carrick and Herrera definitely couldn't do as a pairing, nor could Herrera and an insert DM here.

Aenaes

Andersonisgod wrote: »

In Bale, Madrid have a player who can take up the mantle of being the premier attraction once Ronaldo is gone, as I've said, Di Maria has yet to do that.

Bale has yet to do that also!

You act so sure Bale can be the main man for a massive club and Di Maria can't.

CSF

Aenaes wrote: »

Bale has yet to do that also!

You act so sure Bale can be the main man for a massive club and Di Maria can't.

There's a fairly large gap in quality between the 2 to be fair

Aenaes

tupac_healy wrote: »

Switching gears for a sec...

Benatia to Munich is a brilliant deal for them, he would conmand a start there for me, also I like Manolas that Roma have lined up to replace him, but gutted as I was looking forward to seeing Roma push Juve hard this year..... Wi be harder without Benatia

Can I ask where you're learning about Benatia to Bayern Munich?
All I'm seeing is Roma cancelled a meeting with Bayern (from the Daily Star but at least it's a report) and just Hitzfeld saying Bayern should sign him.

tupac_healy

Aenaes wrote: »

Can I ask where you're learning about Benatia to Bayern Munich?
All I'm seeing is Roma cancelled a meeting with Bayern (from the Daily Star but at least it's a report) and just Hitzfeld saying Bayern should sign him.

Ah didn't hear that, I was going on the various reports of a deal being struck, presumptuous yes but that one looked done!

Personally I'd be delighted if it fell through! I'd love to see Roma as strong as possible to push Juve all the way, also not making Bayern stronger is always a good idea!

Andersonisgod

Aenaes wrote: »

Bale has yet to do that also!

You act so sure Bale can be the main man for a massive club and Di Maria can't.

Well a simple look at their goal records the last few years will tell you all you need to know. This is coming across as a Di Maria hate-fest, which it shouldn't be because I do think he is a very good player, but, to steal a phrase, Bale is a galactico and is absolutely capable of taking up the main man mantle at Real Madrid. Di Maria is entirely capable of providing consistently good performances and helping to supply a main man at a top club.

Rayne Wooney

Bale cost 20 million pounds more than Di Maria

Andersonisgod

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Bale cost 20 million pounds more than Di Maria

And Di Maria cost a couple of million pound more than Suarez....

Anyway, Rayne Wooney, you seem to be firmly on the Di Maria bandwagon so for the sake of my perspective I'd like to know, is Di Maria worth 60 million pound? Is Di Maria capable of being the main man at one of the biggest clubs in the world? If so, what's stopped him up to this point? Is Di Maria capable of scoring double figures in the league?

Rayne Wooney

Andersonisgod wrote: »

And Di Maria cost a couple of million pound more than Suarez....

Anyway, Rayne Wooney, you seem to be firmly on the Di Maria bandwagon so for the sake of my perspective I'd like to know, is Di Maria worth 60 million pound? Is Di Maria capable of being the main man at one of the biggest clubs in the world? If so, what's stopped him up to this point? Is Di Maria capable of scoring double figures in the league?

Suarez didn't go for less than Di Maria.

I have been on the Di Maria bandwagon for years now.

He has been one of the main men at Madrid.

Other clubs hold all the cards when negotiating with United in their current position so we will overpay, if it was my money I would be happier with 50 million but if he performs to the level he is capable of 9 million more is irrelevant in the grand scheme

Is Iniesta capable of double figure goals? Does that make him any less of a player? Is Di Maria capable of double figure assists, of course he is

CSF

I loved the Beatles before they were cool

Andersonisgod

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Suarez didn't go for less than Di Maria.

I have been on the Di Maria bandwagon for years now.

He has been one of the main men at Madrid.

Other clubs hold all the cards when negotiating with United in their current position so we will overpay, if it was my money I would be happier with 50 million but if he performs to the level he is capable of 9 million more is irrelevant in the grand scheme

Is Iniesta capable of double figure goals? Does that make him any less of a player? Is Di Maria capable of double figure assists, of course he is

Ooops, that should be Suarez only cost a couple of million more than Di Maria, but you get the point.

Really? It's been a rather bumpy ride at times.

Last season, his best season, he was third fiddle, behind Ronaldo and Bale in the pecking order. It's not bad, but it's also not 60 million pound good either.

You know, it wasn't that long ago that Ferguson said something to the effect of "Hazard, he's a good player but 32 million?" I know who I'd rather have out of Hazard and Di Maria.

Iniesta isn't the main man at Barcelona that would be the greatest footballer ever, Lionel Messi, but unless you are claiming that Di Maria is equal to, arguably, the greatest midfielder the game has ever seen and certainly one of the very best of his generation, then I think it would be safe to say that Iniesta (at Di Maria's age) would have been worth 60 million pound in todays market.

Smithwicks Man

One thing I still can't understand is how United supposedly have zero negotiating power.

You would've thought that any club would have had the upper hand in negotiations with Madrid for Di Maria seeing as the player himself wants to leave an Florentino Perez wants him gone?

If this goes through then United will have overpaid by £30m+ over their last 4 major transfers (Fellaini, Mata, Shaw, Di Maria.

Alfred Borden

Great signing for United, one of the best wingers in the world and will offer them some width and pace. Price wont matter if he plays to his potential.

Christy Browne

Benatia to Bayern confirmed:

FC Bayern English ‏@FCBayernEN 2m
DONE DEAL: #FCBayern and @OfficialASRoma have agreed the transfer of MEHDI BENATIA (27)! Defensive ace set to sign a 5-year contract.

Smithwicks Man

Christy Browne wrote: »

Benatia to Bayern confirmed:

FC Bayern English ‏@FCBayernEN 2m
DONE DEAL: #FCBayern and @OfficialASRoma have agreed the transfer of MEHDI BENATIA (27)! Defensive ace set to sign a 5-year contract.

Fantastic signing

Rayne Wooney

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Ooops, that should be Suarez only cost a couple of million more than Di Maria, but you get the point.

Really? It's been a rather bumpy ride at times.

Last season, his best season, he was third fiddle, behind Ronaldo and Bale in the pecking order. It's not bad, but it's also not 60 million pound good either.

You know, it wasn't that long ago that Ferguson said something to the effect of "Hazard, he's a good player but 32 million?" I know who I'd rather have out of Hazard and Di Maria.

Iniesta isn't the main man at Barcelona that would be the greatest footballer ever, Lionel Messi, but unless you are claiming that Di Maria is equal to, arguably, the greatest midfielder the game has ever seen and certainly one of the very best of his generation, then I think it would be safe to say that Iniesta (at Di Maria's age) would have been worth 60 million pound in todays market.

You are ignoring context, if Suarez was a model player and hadn't bitten 3 people and then the racism you would have been looking at north of Bales' figure.

Again you are bringing up this ridiculous argument that a pecking order is unarguably correct all of the time, I'm not commenting on that as I already have when you brought it up both with Mata and now Di Maria.

Are you making that up?, didn't Fergie pull out of that because of the massive agent fee. Yes Hazard is top class and hasn't reached his ceiling, but as it stands it has to be Di Maria.

I'm not sure what relevance your last paragraph has, you asked if Di Maria was capable of double figure goals but he is not going to be bought solely for goals. Also midfielders will go for less than attackers, if the best midfielders in the world all moved clubs today I'm almost certain they would all be less than 50 million pounds.

CSF

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

You are ignoring context, if Suarez was a model player and hadn't bitten 3 people and then the racism you would have been looking at north of Bales' figure.

Again you are bringing up this ridiculous argument that a pecking order is unarguably correct all of the time, I'm not commenting on that as I already have when you brought it up both with Mata and now Di Maria.

Are you making that up?, didn't Fergie pull out of that because of the massive agent fee. Yes Hazard is top class and hasn't reached his ceiling, but as it stands it has to be Di Maria.

I'm not sure what relevance your last paragraph has, you asked if Di Maria was capable of double figure goals but he is not going to be bought solely for goals. Also midfielders will go for less than attackers, if the best midfielders in the world all moved clubs today I'm almost certain they would all be less than 50 million pounds.

Di Maria is not better than Hazard. There is no way in hell you would be saying this if he wasn't joining United.

Turtwig

Ronaldo's mere presence near the half way line provides defence to real Madrid during corners. No team can actually commit heavily to a corner without have the serious threat of a counter attack facing them.

Rayne Wooney

CSF wrote: »

Di Maria is not better than Hazard. There is no way in hell you would be saying this if he wasn't joining United.

I said he was better than Bale a year ago, obviously I can see into the future and knew he was going to sign for United

Fescue

CSF wrote: »

Di Maria is not better than Hazard. There is no way in hell you would be saying this if he wasn't joining United.

I would have Di Maria ahead of Hazard, definitely. I dare say Mourinho would too.

CSF

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I said he was better than Bale a year ago, obviously I can see into the future back then and knew he was going to sign for United

Can I see where you said this?

Andersonisgod

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

You are ignoring context, if Suarez was a model player and hadn't bitten 3 people and then the racism you would have been looking at north of Bales' figure.

Again you are bringing up this ridiculous argument that a pecking order is unarguably correct all of the time, I'm not commenting on that as I already have when you brought it up both with Mata and now Di Maria.

Are you making that up?, didn't Fergie pull out of that because of the massive agent fee. Yes Hazard is top class and hasn't reached his ceiling, but as it stands it has to be Di Maria.

I'm not sure what relevance your last paragraph has, you asked if Di Maria was capable of double figure goals but he is not going to be bought solely for goals. Also midfielders will go for less than attackers, if the best midfielders in the world all moved clubs today I'm almost certain they would all be less than 50 million pounds.

Ah unfortunately I don't accept "what ifs" as a valid argument.

Pecking orders are pretty steady and consistent things. Eg. during their shared time at Real Madrid, Ozil would have been ahead of Di Maria in the pecking order, however Ozil moved to Arsenal thus allowing Di Maria to move up the pecking order, however the signing of Bale meant that Di Maria remained in the same position in the Real Madrid pecking order as he had been in when the Summer began. I'll make it simple, has Di Maria ever received top billing over Ronaldo? Has he ever received top billing over Bale? Over Ozil?

No, that's a quote, if I cared more about this I would find the exact statement but it's certainly out there. I'm not entirely sure how Di Maria is being chosen ahead of Hazard but I will smile and slowly back-peddle away now.

Rayne Wooney

CSF wrote: »

Can I see where you said this?

I'm on a phone so can't go looking, it was sometime last year when United were linked with Bale if I'm not mistaken

Will I Amnt

CSF wrote: »

Di Maria is not better than Hazard.

Many people would disagree with you there and they wouldn't be just United fans.

CSF

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Many people would disagree with you there and they wouldn't be just United fans.

I'd love to hear from them and have them explain why they think this way

CSF

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I'm on a phone so can't go looking, it was sometime last year when United were linked with Bale if I'm not mistaken

I'd genuinely love to see the quote when you have a chance

RasTa

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'll make it simple, has Di Maria ever received top billing over Ronaldo? Has he ever received top billing over Bale? Over Ozil?

No, that's a quote, if I cared more about this I would find the exact statement but it's certainly out there. I'm not entirely sure how Di Maria is being chosen ahead of Hazard but I will smile and slowly back-peddle away now.

Yeah in the CL final... Countless other times playing for Real, copa Del Ray final beating Barca last year being another example

CSF

RasTa wrote: »

Yeah in the CL final... Countless other times playing for Real, copa Del Ray final beating Barca last year being another example

That's just him having a good game though. That's not the same as being better over the course of a season

Rayne Wooney

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Ah unfortunately I don't accept "what ifs" as a valid argument.

Pecking orders are pretty steady and consistent things. Eg. during their shared time at Real Madrid, Ozil would have been ahead of Di Maria in the pecking order, however Ozil moved to Arsenal thus allowing Di Maria to move up the pecking order, however the signing of Bale meant that Di Maria remained in the same position in the Real Madrid pecking order as he had been in when the Summer began. I'll make it simple, has Di Maria ever received top billing over Ronaldo? Has he ever received top billing over Bale? Over Ozil?

No, that's a quote, if I cared more about this I would find the exact statement but it's certainly out there. I'm not entirely sure how Di Maria is being chosen ahead of Hazard but I will smile and slowly back-peddle away now.

Were you not saying on the last page that Bale could take the mantle if Ronaldo leaves, is that not an opinion masqueraded as massive if argument?

smileyj1987

I can safely say di Maria will be a great piece of business for man utd and no one can say otherwise .

Andersonisgod

RasTa wrote: »

Yeah in the CL final... Countless other times playing for Real, copa Del Ray final beating Barca last year being another example

You've confused performance with billing. I mean Alex Song might have been MOTM once in his Barcelona career, it doesn't mean he was the main man in the team or the player who the system is essentially built around, it means he had a good game. Since Ronaldo joined Real Madrid, the side has been built around him and his goal return justifies that, Bale last season also took on a more prominent role in the Real Madrid attack and his stats and performances justify that, just as Ozil's stats and figures justify his more prominent role as the main creator at Real Madrid ahead of Di Maria during his time there. I'm not saying that Di Maria never plays well, I'm not insane.

CSF

smileyj1987 wrote: »

I can safely say di Maria will be a great piece of business for man utd and no one can say otherwise .

Ok

RayCun

Do Madrid publish this pecking order before every game?
"tonight our star player is ... With support from... Also appearing will be these geeks...."

Andersonisgod

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Were you not saying on the last page that Bale could take the mantle if Ronaldo leaves, is that not an opinion masqueraded as massive if argument?

However mine is cemented in reality given that we can clearly see what Bale will be tasked with taking on Ronaldo's mantle when Ronaldo leaves. Yours was an entirely hypothetical situation that would require an entire alternate reality to exist (one in which Suarez doesn't bite people) in order for it to be possible.

Andersonisgod

RayCun wrote: »

Do Madrid publish this pecking order before every game?
"tonight our star player is ... With support from... Also appearing will be these geeks...."

Yes they do, it's called the team sheet.

RasTa

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Since Ronaldo joined Real Madrid, the side has been built around him and his goal return justifies that, Bale last season also took on a more prominent role in the Real Madrid attack and his stats and performances justify that, just as Ozil's stats and figures justify his more prominent role as the main creator at Real Madrid ahead of Di Maria during his time there. I'm not saying that Di Maria never plays well, I'm not insane.

Going by this logic, Neymar isn't in the top bracket.

Andersonisgod

RasTa wrote: »

Going by this logic, Neymar isn't in the top bracket.

Oh he is, main man for Brazil and likely to be the one who becomes the centerpiece of the Barcelona attack once Messi is done.

RasTa

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Oh he is, main man for Brazil and likely to be the one who becomes the centerpiece of the Barcelona attack once Messi is done.

No that would be Suarez. Anyway it's a team game so debating this with you is as pointless as usual.

Blatter

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Oh he is, main man for Brazil and likely to be the one who becomes the centerpiece of the Barcelona attack once Messi is done.

I think you misunderstood what RasTa said. He wasn't saying Neymar isn't top bracket, he was saying going by your pecking order logic, he isn't in the top bracket.