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The Virgin Media Television thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,766 ✭✭✭lertsnim


    Classic Fair City or Glenroe would get minuscule ratings.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    iseegirls wrote: »
    I'm not up to date with kids shows on whether they are home-produced or imports, but from what I can see over the next 7 days - I can't see any kids shows that RTE produced. And this is at a time where kids are off school so their viewership must raise a lot more than during the school year. But they instead show 1960's films - so should we mention that RTE don't have confidence in their own produced kids shows as well?

    No, Not at all, Programming for Children is very different for adults. They actually have huge confidence in what they commission. It's one of the success stories of Irish TV. I wouldn't necessarily know too much about it myself, However I've several Friends working in the industry here on Kids programmes that wouldn't see the light of day without some RTE backing. Companies that have been backed by RTE have gone and won BAFTA's in the last 12 months.
    iseegirls wrote: »
    Between 7-11, RTE2 have Big Wave Bootcamp (repeat), Music Inc (repeat), Thank GAA It's Friday, The Sunday Game, Mario Rosenstock (repeat). It's a worry when the only new home produced shows that they shows are GAA related - and as you said - not everyone likes GAA

    Well it is a two station policy and to be fair RTE2 was the most watched station last month. On Average 11 months a Year RTE1 is the most Watched and One month a Year it's RTE 2. TV3 has problems getting programmes into the top 20. The only show they have is Coronation Street. Guess what happens next....
    iseegirls wrote: »
    Why would UTV even state that the soaps cost too much? They haven't even been broadcasting yet, so i don't expect them to be complaining about much. Wait until the first few months, when figures regarding their programming outside the soaps are low, and then we'll see what happens.

    I can guarantee you UTV won't be complaining about the cost of the Soaps or probably anything else, they'll just get on with it. They also don't expect high figures for their shows straight away, they're playing the long game. It's the figures 18 months after they launch that matter to them.

    TV3 are unlikey to be broadcasting in their current format 18 months after they launch. (If at all) Without the soaps they have nothing (expect for Saturday Nights) Ratings are poor because of terrible use of what they have available. We will have the bizarre situation of UTV having top 20 shows but TV3 having none. This really isn't about Irish Programmes but how they schedule both TV3 and 3e on a daily basis. When many of the essential staff members are leaving for UTV you know there are problems.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    Elmo wrote: »
    Both RTÉ and TV3 who have good contracts with BBC and ITV (respectively) really haven't used them. It seems that TV3 completely ignore all programmes outside Soap and Entertainment, while RTÉ push BBC Drama to late night and early afternoon on Sat and Sun. E.G. The Lady Vanishes from the BBC airs Bank Holiday Monday at 2:20pm, their Prime consists of 3 repeats and EastEnders, while another BBC Drama Loving Miss Hatto stars at 23:40 yet the following day, Six-one is reduced by 30mins replaces by more repeats, on Thurday RTÉ repeat EcoEye and Ear To The Ground????

    All haven't a clue IMO.

    I think the only way RTE could get full vaule out of the BBC shows is to show them at the same time as they go out on BBC 1 or 2. When they show them later anyone who was interested in them has already seen them. To be fair you're not going to see the Irish Shows anywhere else other than RTE1 so it's providing a (Dull) Repeat service.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,698 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    RTE are stuck with paying for two channels that earns them not a cent. RTE NN is not allowed to carry adverts and neither is RTE Jr. RTE 1+1 is just a retransmission of RTE 1 so no new adverts there either. For this non earning set of channels, RTE must pay €1.8m per year plus the cost of assembling the channels. They are not even allowed to drop childrens programmes from RTE 2 so yet more loss of income.

    And TV3 gets its debts of €80m plus written off and still bitches about unfair treatment. 2014 was indeed a great year for TV3, and perhaps so will 2015..


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    I think the only way RTE could get full vaule out of the BBC shows is to show them at the same time as they go out on BBC 1 or 2. When they show them later anyone who was interested in them has already seen them. To be fair you're not going to see the Irish Shows anywhere else other than RTE1 so it's providing a (Dull) Repeat service.

    Not necessarily. RTÉ TWO are repeating a few unwanted BBC Three Docs (The Call Centre), but that's not the type of programming I am talking about.

    Take The Bill when it aired on RTÉ One. Got good viewing figure for them at 5:30 Monday - Friday. Now take Holby City and Casualty and put them on at 6:00 on RTÉ TWO, after all they are 52 episodes per year.

    Monday, Wednesday & Friday Casualty
    Tuesday & Thursday Holby City

    Keep them as up to date as possible, I know they are hour longs but so was The Bill.

    The Simpson could go out at 5pm or 7pm.

    Dr. Who on RTÉ Two??? Why not?

    Okay not the best but better than repeats.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    lertsnim wrote: »
    Classic Fair City or Glenroe would get minuscule ratings.

    Even still that's not the reason. They can't get the rights. RTÉ won't repeat Irish Drama due to Equity Fees. The Clinic and Raw would be better programmes to repeat as there are less episodes and higher quality.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    Elmo wrote: »
    Not necessarily. RTÉ TWO are repeating a few unwanted BBC Three Docs (The Call Centre), but that's not the type of programming I am talking about.

    Take The Bill when it aired on RTÉ One. Got good viewing figure for them at 5:30 Monday - Friday. Now take Holby City and Casualty and put them on at 6:00 on RTÉ TWO, after all they are 52 episodes per year.

    Monday, Wednesday & Friday Casualty
    Tuesday & Thursday Holby City

    Keep them as up to date as possible, I know they are hour longs but so was The Bill.

    The Simpson could go out at 5pm or 7pm.

    Dr. Who on RTÉ Two??? Why not?

    Okay not the best but better than repeats.

    I can see where you're coming from and it would certainly be worth trying on RTE2. They couldn't do much worse than now. However are Holby City, Causality suitable for that time?

    As for the Call Centre, It's not a bad show but it's been shown a lot on BBC Three, again the only person watching it on RTE 2 would be Saorview only and they're rare enough at this stage. They could show BBC Drama at that time. It might have been on Before on BBC1 or 2 but probably will have only been shown once or twice, not the 100 times the Call Centre has been on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 285 ✭✭Cork_chick_94


    Elmo wrote: »
    Not necessarily. RTÉ TWO are repeating a few unwanted BBC Three Docs (The Call Centre), but that's not the type of programming I am talking about.

    Take The Bill when it aired on RTÉ One. Got good viewing figure for them at 5:30 Monday - Friday. Now take Holby City and Casualty and put them on at 6:00 on RTÉ TWO, after all they are 52 episodes per year.

    Monday, Wednesday & Friday Casualty
    Tuesday & Thursday Holby City

    Keep them as up to date as possible, I know they are hour longs but so was The Bill.

    The Simpson could go out at 5pm or 7pm.

    Dr. Who on RTÉ Two??? Why not?

    Okay not the best but better than repeats.

    I think shortland street could be popular if it was shown in late afternoon,


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    I think shortland street could be popular if it was shown in late afternoon,

    Problem with shortland st is they have moved it round so much, around 2:30 Shortland Street and Doctors could provide a good double bill.

    Think we've all gone way off topic!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭iseegirls


    When many of the essential staff members are leaving for UTV you know there are problems.

    When TV3 launched, they took a few people from other channels including RTE and TnaG. I don't see some backroom staff (it's hard to even know if these were essential) moving from one channel to another as a massive problem. Now if Collette Fitzpatrick and Vincent Browne were to switch, then it would be different.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    iseegirls wrote: »
    When TV3 launched, they took a few people from other channels including RTE and TnaG. I don't see some backroom staff (it's hard to even know if these were essential) moving from one channel to another as a massive problem. Now if Collette Fitzpatrick and Vincent Browne were to switch, then it would be different.

    Backroom staff are almost always more essential than front of Camera. There are plenty of people that could do the job of a TV3 presenter. No offense to Collette Fitzpartick who's very good at her job but no one would notice if she went and was replaced. Alan Cantwell would be the example there. I will say Vincent Browne going would be a blow to the station.

    The cult of personality hasn't really worked with TV3 as most people don't even know most of the presenters. The biggest Name they have outside of Vincent is Martin King.

    The most important Staff in any commercial operation are the Sales staff. They tend to earn to be some of the top earners at any station because they're so important. TV3 have lost all their Main Sales staff (who did a great job in almost impossible circumstances, getting money in with very poor product.)

    All their contacts, all their leads have gone with them. One person I know in the industry thought that was a bigger blow for TV3 than the loss of the Soaps, and he thought that the loss of the soaps was a hole below the waterline.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Just shows you how bad Irish TV is when Sales people are considered most important.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    Elmo wrote: »
    Just shows you how bad Irish TV is when Sales people are considered most important.

    To be fair in any commercial broadcasting organisation across the world Sales and promotional people are usually close to the top, it's not just an Irish thing. If the vast majority of Sales people walked out of a local or National Radio station here it would be almost as big a problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    To be fair in any commercial broadcasting organisation across the world Sales and promotional people are usually close to the top, it's not just an Irish thing. If the vast majority of Sales people walked out of a local or National Radio station here it would be almost as big a problem.

    Then the CEOs and Programme managers need to make sure that the meet with their customers and clients and know who they are and what they want. Otherwise when a Sales person leaves they take your customers with them.

    Bsh5YIACAAAefif.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    Elmo wrote: »
    Then the CEOs and Programme managers need to make sure that the meet with their customers and clients and know who they are and what they want. Otherwise when a Sales person leaves they take your customers with them.

    Exactly.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,682 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    To be fair in any commercial broadcasting organisation across the world Sales and promotional people are usually close to the top, it's not just an Irish thing. If the vast majority of Sales people walked out of a local or National Radio station here it would be almost as big a problem.

    Indeed it should be remembered that the mission in life for any commercial media outlet - but particularly a free to air broadcaster - is to taken in as much money in advertising sales as possible. Programmes are just a means to that end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Jesus I'll a splitting headache after a few too many pints last night. So I have the tv on and am flicking through the channels. Tv3 have best of Ireland am. 3e have yes of course best of Ireland am.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    http://www.independent.ie/business/ad-agencies-unimpressed-by-utvs-lack-of-plans-30478114.html
    Comparisons between average audience figures for Coronation Street and Emmerdale on TV3 and UTV in the Republic are worth noting. Payne says the adult audience for Corrie on UTV peaks at 175,800, compared to 639,800 on TV3.

    UTV Ireland may consolidate most of those viewers, but at the same time TV3 will consolidate many of the Xfactor viewers.
    At an agency breakfast briefing to launch 3Solutions , TV3 executives stressed the advertising and product placement (PP) options available to brands on its current schedule, including working with established shows like Ireland AM and Xpose.

    If UTV choose to do a Daytime show with PP then what?
    Brand solutions director Paula McCarthy - a sponsorship executive TV3 almost lost to UTV Ireland a few months back - said Ireland's only breakfast show will soon move to the Sony HD Studio and Xpose will be extended to an hour from early September. McCarthy claims TV3/3e has over 700,000 fans on Facebook and Twitter.

    Does Facebook and Twitter make a channel?
    TV3 has agreed a partnership with Denis O'Brien's Communicorp radio network.

    Interesting-ish!
    But given the few windows open which don't clash with the current soaps, agencies believe the most likely time slot will be 8.30pm on Wednesdays and Thursdays. Given that slot's closeness to the watershed, it may also provide Element with scope for more adult storylines.

    Not if the advertisers don't want to be associated with more adult storylines IMO (not that advertisers can have a say in the editorial process, no that'd never happen).


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    Elmo wrote: »
    I think TV3 get away with a lot in relation to this debate about RTÉ's one sided agenda. TV3's original news was very much the same as RTÉ's, I don't really see much difference between the news on Local Radio Stations, the Commerical National Radio Stations than we get from RTÉ. In actual fact I would say many Locals are far more FF and FG than RTÉ are.

    It is difficult for RTÉ to have to put up with all sides saying they are being treated unfairly.

    It also helps that Vincent Browne can give TV3 some creditability but in general TV3 is much like the rest of the Irish media filled with consensus. Unable to ask hard questions in fear that they might insult a future employer.

    Aren't you forgetting the fearless Ursula, bane of all politicians?? ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    http://www.independent.ie/business/ad-agencies-unimpressed-by-utvs-lack-of-plans-30478114.html

    Elmo has already made some very valid points about this Article. Let me just add.

    * The tie in with Communicorp radio network will allow them to Modify (ditch) news output in the future, if they decide to go down that road

    *Casting is underway and the soap is Due to start shooting in October. Now I was under the impression that they were going to start shooting the soap in August. Is this going to be one of those things that's always 3 months away from been shot?

    * They moan about/at UTV for not informing them about what's coming up, they all air their doubts, and then all three of them can't see UTV discounting their Ad rates. If that's the case UTV would be pretty confident about what they're doing.

    It's a poorly written piece with no real new Information. Irish Newspapers have really lost their way in recent years. I'd have to take all info about both stations in this publication with a pinch of salt.

    And by the way I can have 700,000 Facebook/Twitter fans within 24 hours for less than a grand. Next thing their Brand solutions director (who looks like she was the only person not asked to the UTV party) will say is that TV3 have a very active BEBO page.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    and a brand new Crossfire Celebrity Special, featuring Karen Koster, Elaine Crowley, Anna Daly and Ciara Doherty – which of the TV3 beauties will come out on top?

    some celebrities they are!

    Saw that programme! Sinéad Desmond appeared instead of Anna Daly.

    One of the final questions was 'What TV programme does Mark Cagney
    present?' It was asked of Sinéad Desmond, his co-presenter!! You could
    hear the howls of 'Fix! Fix!' from Elaine Crowley, who was the other finalist.
    I honestly could not blame her.

    To give Sinéad her due, she did not feel it was kosher and shared her winnings
    with Elaine - both of them had nominated charities.

    Was it a coincidence or deliberate to have had all women contestants on Celebrity
    Crossfire? It presented quite a contrast to the regular quiz, in which most of
    the participants are men! No male 'celebrities' available for Saturday night's
    Quiz? A serious lack of women willing to take part in the regular Crossfire??
    Just asking!! ;)

    While the format for Crossfire is quite good, I have rarely seen such a lack of
    balance in gender and age among the participants. On quizzes such as The
    Chase, Pointless, Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? and even the shortlived
    ' The Lie', you would see a good balance of male/female, young/old, thin/fat,
    black/white, tall/small among the 'quizzees'. Crossfire only seems to accept
    Thirty something males, for the most part, it seems to me. I guess the all
    female celebrity version was a sop to us women who love quiz shows but
    have been expressing our dismay at the mostly male make up of Crossfire.
    On second thoughts, perhaps I am giving too much credit to the presenter/
    producer. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    *Casting is underway and the soap is Due to start shooting in October. Now I was under the impression that they were going to start shooting the soap in August. Is this going to be one of those things that's always 3 months away from been shot?

    As someone pointed out earlier, It might have been you, TV3 maybe looking for BAI Sound & Vision Funding, the BAI will announce their latest round of funding in Sept. Also just quote Michael O'Keeffe at the Oireachtas on DCTV:-
    One of the challenges in funding a company such as DCTV is its funding model appeared to be very much based on securing money from the sound and vision fund and from other schemes. There is a question mark over whether such a model is sustainable because the sound and vision fund is a competitive grant awards scheme and how one can base one's funding to such an extent on securing money from a scheme of that nature is challenging. They have bought time until February to continue with the service. Between now and then, we will explore with them whether there are ways to continue but they need to look at their funding model because one cannot rely on one scheme to be the mainstay of a funding model

    @ Brooke 2 did you not dig a big enough hole the last time :) (or did I dig the hole, not sure :) )


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    Elmo wrote: »
    funny on another thread someone was asking why it was so male driven :confused: I went into a rant :rolleyes:

    Suppose the 4 lovely ladies from tv3 balance out the male driven contestants from the series :rolleyes:

    Haha! So, I am not the only person to whom this thought occurred! ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    brooke 2 wrote: »
    Haha! So, I am not the only person to whom this thought occurred! ;)

    Ah I though you were that person. It was on the "Things that Annoy you the most thread" in after hours. I thought it was one of those over the top feminist tropes that occurs so much with media, I don't give out about how Midday and Xpose are women only. But a good quizshow that happens to have more male contestants gets a people talking :rolleyes: May as well continue to dig!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    brooke 2 wrote: »
    Saw that programme! Sinéad Desmond appeared instead of Anna Daly.

    One of the final questions was 'What TV programme does Mark Cagney
    present?' It was asked of Sinéad Desmond, his co-presenter!! You could
    hear the howls of 'Fix! Fix!' from Elaine Crowley, who was the other finalist.
    I honestly could not blame her.

    To give Sinéad her due, she did not feel it was kosher and shared her winnings
    with Elaine - both of them had nominated charities.

    Was it a coincidence or deliberate to have had all women contestants on Celebrity
    Crossfire? It presented quite a contrast to the regular quiz, in which most of
    the participants are men! No male 'celebrities' available for Saturday night's
    Quiz? A serious lack of women willing to take part in the regular Crossfire??
    Just asking!! ;)

    While the format for Crossfire is quite good, I have rarely seen such a lack of
    balance in gender and age among the participants. On quizzes such as The
    Chase, Pointless, Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? and even the shortlived
    ' The Lie', you would see a good balance of male/female, young/old, thin/fat,
    black/white, tall/small among the 'quizzees'. Crossfire only seems to accept
    Thirty something males, for the most part, it seems to me. I guess the all
    female celebrity version was a sop to us women who love quiz shows but
    have been expressing our dismay at the mostly male make up of Crossfire.
    On second thoughts, perhaps I am giving too much credit to the presenter/
    producer. :(

    There's no agenda I would assume with the normal run of Crossfire. The UK Quizshows have the same problem, Men apply to quizes 3 and 4 times more. I'm Talking here about shows where questions are asked. Not the likes of Deal or No Deal. You can't force women on if they don't apply. Obviously in the UK the companies have the time and workforce to balance out the situation. To be fair to TV3, they don't have the resources (or the actual right people applying)

    As for the show that went out last night, that was very sexist. They were only put on the show because they were female and good looking?? From their own press release...

    and a brand new Crossfire Celebrity Special, featuring Karen Koster, Elaine Crowley, Anna Daly and Ciara Doherty – which of the TV3 beauties will come out on top?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    Elmo wrote: »
    As someone pointed out earlier, It might have been you, TV3 maybe looking for BAI Sound & Vision Funding, the BAI will announce their latest round of funding in Sept.

    Well if it is ongoing like other soaps that shouldn't matter. Funding could kick in at any point. By any chance will this be a limited series, to see if they can get a UK buyer(the real reason this is going into production) If that doesn't happen they can then pull it after 30 or so eps saying the licence fee and UTV came in the dead of night and burned all the scripts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    Elmo wrote: »
    Ah I though you were that person. It was on the "Things that Annoy you the most thread" in after hours. I thought it was one of those over the top feminist tropes that occurs so much with media, I don't give out about how Midday and Xpose are women only. But a good quizshow that happens to have more male contestants gets a people talking :rolleyes: May as well continue to dig!

    So, how many women have you noticed on Crossfire, Elmo?

    Midday and Exposé are aimed at the female demographic, I believe.
    I have not remarked about sports programmes, which are majorly
    watched by men.

    Crossfire is a quiz programme, as is The Chase, Pointless, WWTBAM? -
    even 'The Lie'. As such, it is watched by a male/female, young/old, etc.,
    audience. I just happen to believe that those taking part should be
    representative of that diversity.

    If you wish to embark on another 'rant', be my guest!! :)

    As far as I am concerned, I have made my point!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    There's no agenda I would assume with the normal run of Crossfire. The UK Quizshows have the same problem, Men apply to quizes 3 and 4 times more. I'm Talking here about shows where questions are asked. Not the likes of Deal or No Deal. You can't force women on if they don't apply. Obviously in the UK the companies have the time and workforce to balance out the situation. To be fair to TV3, they don't have the resources (or the actual right people applying)

    As for the show that went out last night, that was very sexist. They were only put on the show because they were female and good looking?? From their own press release...

    and a brand new Crossfire Celebrity Special, featuring Karen Koster, Elaine Crowley, Anna Daly and Ciara Doherty – which of the TV3 beauties will come out on top?

    I did not realise that that was their own press release! Who do they think they are?
    Fox News? ;)

    Re quiz shows - I would not class the likes of Deal Or No Deal as a quiz programme.
    Tried to look at it once and abandoned it after a few minutes. I am referring to
    'proper' quiz shows, such as Pointless, which does not seem to have any
    difficulty attracting people of both sexes and all ages and standards of IQ.
    I have previously mentioned other shows where there was much more diversity
    among the participants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Onthe3rdDay


    brooke 2 wrote: »

    Re quiz shows - I would not class the likes of Deal Or No Deal as a quiz programme.

    Neither would I but some would, I'm only talking here about Proper quiz programmes.
    brooke 2 wrote: »
    I am referring to
    'proper' quiz shows, such as Pointless, which does not seem to have any
    difficulty attracting people of both sexes and all ages and standards of IQ.
    I have previously mentioned other shows where there was much more diversity
    among the participants.

    Proper quiz shows like Pointless are watched by 3 million plus a day when they air new episodes. It's the same with the Chase on the other side. When you have 7 million viewers between those 2 shows you have no problems attracting applicants. There are still double the amount of men applying compared to women. However, you have enough to work with to give a general reflection of society.

    On the other hand, I would assume most people in Ireland have never come across Crossfire, or Other TV3 quiz shows. It's mostly men that apply. What would you have them do? Force women to participate? Ireland had kind of grown up and generally treats women equally. Where you happy last night when 4 women were forced to go on that quiz because people like you were complaining that there are not enough women on Crossfire?

    This has always been a problem for Irish TV and getting participants. Any chance of being put on the spot about knowledge and you'd get loads of men putting their hands up and no women. They used to trawl the Universities and colleges in the early 90's looking for female participants. Most of the time the women that used to appear wanted to advance a media career or where somewhat involved in Media. They had no interest in the quiz.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    No, but lots of people do comment that there aren't enough women presenting sports, and for that matter women's sports being shown on TV. A much wider issue and I can see why people call for more women in sport and more coverage of women's sport and I concur (though I don't watch sports).

    Until it was point out on the other thread I hadn't noticed that largely it only had male contestants, I was watching a relatively good quiz show that would be no better or worse if it had had more female contestants, I purely think it was coincidence. I doubt the producers specifically went out of their way to avoid female contestants. TV3's The Lie seemed to have a much more balanced ratio, though really not as good, but nothing do to with the ratio.

    When I do watch TV I generally don't count the male to female ratio. I think there were about 5 or 6 across the series. I also didn't notice their age range, but generally over 18 and prob not reaching into the sixties or seventies all that often.


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