The Virgin Media Television thread

McAlban

Basically TV3 want a large return for their money for buying the RWC.

When this announcement was made they stressed that TV3 would launch in HD In mid 2015 in time for the world cup. However they omitted the fact they were not going to launch on Saorview and only behind the Paywall of UPC Horizon (which is not availible to all UPC customers) or to Sky+HD. Which is cost prohibative to a lot of people.

Frankly it's a disgrace and they've only clarified it a month out so I doubt there's time to enable TV3HD on Saorview now. Even if there was massive complaints to TV3 or BAI or Comreg.

icdg

I understand that TV3 HD is available to all UPC customers who have HD equipment, not just Horizon customers, in the same way as RTE One, RTE Two, TG4, BBC One NI, BBC Two, and UTV Ireland are available in HD.

On UPC every channel - SD, HD, or analogue - is behind a paywall, whether or not encryption is applied) all of the analogue channels and a small number of digital channels are unencrypted) - you must pay UPC for a TV or broadband package in the first place and they are entitled to physically disconnect you from the network if you don't.

lertsnim

McAlban wrote: »

Basically TV3 want a large return for their money for buying the RWC.

When this announcement was made they stressed that TV3 would launch in HD In mid 2015 in time for the world cup. However they omitted the fact they were not going to launch on Saorview and only behind the Paywall of UPC Horizon (which is not availible to all UPC customers) or to Sky+HD. Which is cost prohibative to a lot of people.

Frankly it's a disgrace and they've only clarified it a month out so I doubt there's time to enable TV3HD on Saorview now. Even if there was massive complaints to TV3 or BAI or Comreg.

TV3 will be losing lots of viewers looking for HD coverage when they watch on ITV HD instead.

galtee boy

Give it up lads, you won't beat Sky or TV3, going on the response from the BAI and that's the one that counts. For those that have Sky, the HD pack is now available at €10 and with a bit of haggling, I'm sure that can be reduced further. They seem to be on a mission at the moment to keep their existing " loyal" customers. I got a phone call out of the blue two weeks ago, offering me Sports and movies for €22 a month for 12 months, for being a loyal customer etc. I have also heard from work colleagues and friends, getting the same offer. TV3 have no licence fee money to rely on like RTE, so it's no surprise they will take whatever HD deal Sky offered them.

Elmo

galtee boy wrote: »

Give it up lads, you won't beat Sky or TV3, going on the response from the BAI and that's the one that counts. For those that have Sky, the HD pack is now available at €10 and with a bit of haggling, I'm sure that can be reduced further. They seem to be on a mission at the moment to keep their existing " loyal" customers. I got a phone call out of the blue two weeks ago, offering me Sports and movies for €22 a month for 12 months, for being a loyal customer etc. I have also heard from work colleagues and friends, getting the same offer. TV3 have no licence fee money to rely on like RTE, so it's no surprise they will take whatever HD deal Sky offered them.

But they were bailed out by the Public and they are owned by UPC, surely they have corporate social responsibilities. Hopefully more people decided to get UTV HD via satellite.

lertsnim

galtee boy wrote: »

TV3 have no licence fee money to rely on like RTE, so it's no surprise they will take whatever HD deal Sky offered them.

They got a massive write down on debts instead and who paid for that? We all did.

deezell

lertsnim wrote: »

They got a massive write down on debts instead and who paid for that? We all did.

It's simply not good enough that public money is in some way diverted the to promote the wares of a media behemoth like sky TV. It's like giving sky the world cup rights by stealth. Worse, the public's representative in this, the BAI, is turned in their favour.

brick man

Thank god for Freesat and UTV HD and that is where I will be watching the rugby world cup on

STB.

icdg wrote: »

I understand that TV3 HD is available to all UPC customers who have HD equipment, not just Horizon customers, in the same way as RTE One, RTE Two, TG4, BBC One NI, BBC Two, and UTV Ireland are available in HD.

On UPC every channel - SD, HD, or analogue - is behind a paywall, whether or not encryption is applied) all of the analogue channels and a small number of digital channels are unencrypted) - you must pay UPC for a TV or broadband package in the first place and they are entitled to physically disconnect you from the network if you don't.

The difference in Ireland is that Subscription companies are not allowed to charge anymore for these free to air channels, whether or not they are a HD or SD variant is irrelevant.

What is now being called into question is the exact terms of the Tv3 licence. If they persist with giving the two fingers to the free to air public, the basis upon which they are licenced, the question is what is the licence regulator going to do about it.

Quite clearly TV3's own platform neutrality is now a question that requires an answer.

To those who have been asking the questions I say fair play. But I would ask more direct questions of DECNR, Comreg and the BAI and not just under the S&V scheme. I would ask whether they are fullfilling the requirements of Section 77 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 and the terms of the licence that is not in the public domain.

As I understand it they are licenced in this country as a free to air broadcaster and no distinction would exist between what format should NOT be free to air. They should not be allowed to offer anything on a pay only basis/or one that allows a Pay only platform to charge more for the variation of a channel under the terms of that licence/and or the must offer/carry rule.

galtee boy wrote: »

Give it up lads, you won't beat Sky or TV3, going on the response from the BAI and that's the one that counts. For those that have Sky, the HD pack is now available at €10 and with a bit of haggling, I'm sure that can be reduced further. They seem to be on a mission at the moment to keep their existing " loyal" customers. I got a phone call out of the blue two weeks ago, offering me Sports and movies for €22 a month for 12 months, for being a loyal customer etc. I have also heard from work colleagues and friends, getting the same offer. TV3 have no licence fee money to rely on like RTE, so it's no surprise they will take whatever HD deal Sky offered them.

It is this attitude that is what got us into the banking mess in the first instance.

Tv3 have always been a commercial company, not a public service broadcaster. This poor mouth and green eyed monster has been played by the executives of TV3 in the media over the years, whether it be whinging over not getting licence fee money or taking and losing legal cases about being overcharged by RTENL for carriage during the analogue days.

According to newspaper reports, TV3 had a large amount of money written off by the Irish taxpayer (€81million by all accounts). They then apparently bought back the rest of their loan book from the IBRC at a massive discount. All of this whilst being owned by a large private equity company.

As regards the "no surprise" of doing a deal with Sky, Sky cannot charge anymore for channels licenced as FTA under Section 77 of the Broadcasting Act. There is no need for people to pay €10 for the HD pack. This messing existed when RTE2 went HD and was requested by Sky.

As it is, RTE1's carriage on Sky is a SD only variant of the FTA output. This situation only exists on Sky. RTE need to put the boot in there and say no unless you provide both, we cannot offer you any of our stations (it is meant to be offered and carried unabridged). The only reason the SD variants of the RTE's exist on the Sky platform is most likely due to a nod and a wink arrangement so that Sky wont have to supply all its subscribers with HD boxes!

irishfeen

The problem with the Act (below) is that its really only mentions RTÉ and TG4.. do we know if TV3 and UTV fall under the same rules, although TV3 are definitely using [14] to their advantage with EPG Position, - http://www.bai.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Broadcasting-Act-2009.pdf

77.—(1) (a) In this Part “appropriate network” means an electronic
communications network provided by a person
(“appropriate network provider”) which is used for the
distribution or transmission of broadcasting services to
the public.
(b) For the purposes of this section a multiplex contractor in
relation to multiplexes referred to in section 132(1), (2),
(3) and (4) or in section 133 is not an appropriate network
provider by virtue of being a multiplex contractor or
associated activities.
(c) For the purposes of this section a holder of a licence
referred to in section 76(1), the terms of which authorise
the transmission by means of a MMD system of programme
material, is not an appropriate network provider
by virtue of being a licensee or associated activities.
(d) For the purposes of this section a holder of a licence issued
under section 59 or 121, the terms of which authorise the
transmission of programme material, is not an appropriate
network provider by virtue of being a licensee
under that section or associated activities.
(2) Where the Authority is of the view, after carrying out a review
and after consultation with the Communications Regulator, that a
type or class of network system, rather than an individual network
system, is not used by a significant number of end-users as their principal
means of receiving transmissions of programme material, it may
propose to the Minister the full or partial removal of the obligations
86
[No. 18.] [2009.] Broadcasting Act 2009.
set out in subsections (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9) and (10) on that
type or class of network system. The Minister may make an order to
that effect.
(3) In the case where the appropriate network is a digital system,
the appropriate network provider shall ensure the re-transmission,
by or through his or her appropriate network, of the Houses of the
Oireachtas Channel and the Irish Film Channel.
(4) An appropriate network provider shall ensure the re-transmission,
by or through his or her appropriate network, of each freeto-air
television service provided for the time being by RTE´ , TG4
and the free-to-air service provided under section 70 by the television
service programme contractor which that body or contractor requests
the appropriate network provider to so re-transmit.
(5) If a dispute arises between the appropriate network provider
and RTE´ , TG4 or the television programme service contractor in
relation to the placement by the appropriate network provider, relative
to the placement by him or her of another broadcasting service,
on the system concerned of a free-to-air service provided by that
body or contractor, being a placement made on an appropriate network
for the purposes of the appropriate network provider complying
with a request by that body or contractor under subsection
(4), the dispute shall be referred to the Authority for its determination
and the determination of the Authority in the matter shall
be final.
(6) An appropriate network provider shall re-transmit each
national sound broadcasting service provided for the time being by
RTE´ and each sound broadcasting contractor and which RTE´ or the
contractor concerned requests the holder to so re-transmit.
(7) The appropriate network provider shall not impose a charge
or allow a charge to be imposed in relation to the making available
to a person of any service referred to in subsection (3), (4), (5) or (6)
if he or she imposes a charge or allows a charge to be imposed on
that person in relation to the making available of any other service
to that person by means of the appropriate network concerned.
(8) The Authority may require an appropriate network provider
to transmit as a broadcasting service, by means of specified appropriate
networks (whether analogue or digital) maintained by the
appropriate network provider, the whole or part of the programme
material supplied under one or more specified community content
provision contracts the holders of which are members of the local
community or community of interest that is served by the said appropriate
network and who request the first-mentioned appropriate network
provider to so transmit the whole or, as the case may be, part
of that programme material.
(9) A person of whom a requirement is made by the Authority
under subsection (8) shall comply with that requirement.
(10) An appropriate network provider shall not impose a charge
or allow a charge to be imposed in relation to the making available
to a person of any service referred to in subsection (8), pursuant to
a requirement made of him or her under that subsection, if he or she
imposes a charge or allows a charge to be imposed on that person in
relation to the making available of any other service to that person
by means of the appropriate network concerned.
[2009.] [ Broadcasting Act 2009. No. 18.]
(11) Without prejudice to the requirements imposed under subsection
(4), RTE´ , TG4 and the television service programme contractor
shall ensure that their must-offer services are at all times offered
for re-transmission (subject to agreement as to fair, reasonable and
non-discriminatory terms of use) by means of any appropriate network
that is available for reception in an intelligible form by
members of the public in the whole of or in part of the State.
(12) RTE´ , TG4 and the television service programme contractor
shall ensure that their must-offer services are at all times offered for
broadcast or re-transmission (subject to agreement as to fair, reasonable
and non-discriminatory terms of use) by means of every satellite
television service.
(13) Arrangements entered into under subsection (12) shall not
result in an additional charge on any subscriber to a satellite television
service by reason of the making available to that subscriber of
any must-offer service by way of the satellite television service.
(14) Subject to the requirements of any contract made under
section 74 any arrangement entered into under subsection (12) shall
ensure that the electronic programme guide by which members of
the public access the satellite television service shall prioritise the
positioning of the must-offer service for the purposes of that satellite
television service and for the purposes of any other satellite television
service which also utilises the same electronic programme
guide for the purposes of making a satellite television service available
for reception in an intelligible form by members of the public
in the whole of or in part of the State.
(15) The Authority shall report to the Minister on an annual basis
in relation to the operation of this section.
(16) (a) An order under subsection (2) shall be laid before each
House of the Oireachtas by the Minister as soon as may
be after it is made.
(b) Either House of the Oireachtas may, by resolution passed
within 21 sitting days after the day on which an order was
laid before it in accordance with paragraph (a), pass a
resolution annulling the order.
(c) The annulment under paragraph (b) of an order takes
effect immediately on the passing of the resolution concerned
but does not affect anything that was done under
the order before the passing of the resolution.
(17) In this section—
“must-offer service” means a free-to-air television service provided
for the time being by RTE´ , TG4 and the free-to-air service provided
under section 70 by the television service programme contractor;
“re-transmission” means near-simultaneous, unaltered and
unabridged transmission;
“satellite television service” means a service which consists in or
involves the distribution or transmission of television broadcasting
services from a satellite, such services then offered to the public with
the intention that such services be used by a significant number of
the persons in the whole or part of the State by whom the broadcasts
are received in an intelligible form as their principal means of receiving
television programmes.

irishfeen

I know others have already done it but more the merrier - Official Complaint lodged with TV3.

STB.

irishfeen wrote: »

The problem with the Act (below) is that its really only mentions RTÉ and TG4.. do we know if TV3 and UTV fall under the same rules, although TV3 are definitely using [14] to their advantage with EPG Position, - http://www.bai.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Broadcasting-Act-2009.pdf

I am familiar with the legislation.

Subsection 4 of what you have quoted there specifically mentions Tv3, although I can see how you would have missed it, as it doesnt mention them by name. It is TV3 it is referring to..

(4) An appropriate network provider shall ensure the re-transmission,by or through his or her appropriate network, of each freeto-air television service provided for the time being by RTE, TG4 and the free-to-air service provided under section 70 by the television service programme contractor which that body or contractor requests the appropriate network provider to so re-transmit.

Section 70 which refers to Tv3 is here. I had previously mentioned both earlier in the thread

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0018/sec0070.html

irishfeen

STB. wrote: »

I am familiar with the legislation.

Subsection 4 of what you have quoted there specifically mentions Tv3, although I can see how you would have missed it, as it doesnt mention them by name. It is TV3 it is referring to..

Ah OK STB thanks.... that's excellent! ...

(7) The appropriate network provider shall not impose a charge
or allow a charge to be imposed in relation to the making available
to a person of any service referred to in subsection (3), (4), (5) or (6)
if he or she imposes a charge or allows a charge to be imposed on
that person in relation to the making available of any other service
to that person by means of the appropriate network concerned.

STB.

The whole basis of Section 77 centres around "platform neutrality". This is due to pressures put on governments by Pay only companies for access to FTA content. Its mainly in there so that the free to air broadcasters could not prevent the content from being witheld from Sky/UPC and only broadcast on Saorview. It is quite ironic that one of the said licenced FTA operators has created a situation that is operating in reverse, i.e. A FTA licenced HD variant ONLY available on an exclusive pay only basis of which they quite well aware (according to the interactions quoted a few pages back).

Now what Tv3 might say is that they do not offer TV3 HD as a free to air service as TV3HD do not exist as a free to air service on Saorview. So the question for Tv3 is what is the basis that allowed them to offer the HD service to Sky? Was it requested under the must offer rule by Sky ? What is in TV3's contract that allows for them to vary when they are and are not a FTA service.

Tv3 obviously have taken this position for a reason and I wonder what that is. I would suspect that it is to give the two fingers to Saorview who they have no intention of paying any more for extra usage of the mux they would use, and a system which they had insisted upon! I wonder how they might continue as a broadcaster if they didnt have a licence ??

irishfeen

STB. wrote: »

The whole basis of Section 77 centres around "platform neutrality". This is due to pressures put on governments by Pay only companies for access to FTA content. Its mainly in there so that the free to air broadcasters could not prevent the content from being witheld from Sky/UPC and only broadcast on Saorview. It is quite ironic that one of the said licenced FTA operators has created a situation that is operating in reverse, i.e. A FTA licenced HD variant ONLY available on an exclusive pay only basis of which they quite well aware (according to the interactions quoted a few pages back).

Now what Tv3 might say is that they do not offer TV3 HD as a free to air service as TV3HD do not exist as a free to air service on Saorview. So the question for Tv3 is what is the basis that allowed them to offer the HD service to Sky? Was it requested under the must offer rule by Sky ? What is in TV3's contract that allows for them to vary when they are and are not a FTA service.

Tv3 obviously have taken this position for a reason and I wonder what that is. I would suspect that it is to give the two fingers to Saorview who they have no intention of paying any more for extra usage of the mux they would use, and a system which they had insisted upon! I wonder how they might continue as a broadcaster if they didnt have a licence ??

Big question of course will be if the BAI will act? I always get the impression that they don't like to rock the boat too much...

I have also asked UTV Ireland to clarify their position quoting the act, they got a special licence dispensation to broadcast here so their response will be interesting.

gordongekko

Why doesn't saorview discontinue sd?

deezell

gordongekko wrote: »

Why doesn't saorview discontinue sd?

The mad thing about that would be that the shortfall in income for Rte networks (2rn) would be made up as a price increase for the remaining channels on the mux. The big issue is, how does a business which receives public funds by subsidy or debt writedown still have the resources to bid for the world cup, and can then act like a fully private company.

iseegirls

Maybe getting away from the whole HD/Saorview/UPC/Sky topic, Saturday:AM and Sunday:AM are launching this weekend. How do you think it will fare? A 3 hour show to fill is a big task.

Be also interesting whether they'll have news reports on the hour. If yes, then it may make sense to bring back the 5:30 on the weekends, and use the news team that were there earlier. Or even just do the 5:30 Sport News instead.

Sam Russell

gordongekko wrote: »

Why doesn't saorview discontinue sd?

Saorview could change the definition of the SD signal to 720/704 by 576i. This would improve the perceived quality greatly. It would have little impact on the charges to each broadcaster if they were all changed. I suspect TV3 deliberately reduce their bandwidth to fuzzy vision standards to reduce their charges as they have lower bandwidth than other broadcasters.

STB.

The quality of the game being shown on the Saorview output for 3E looks like its being shot on the equivelant of a 1 megapixel camera.

deezell

STB. wrote: »

The quality of the game being shown on the Saorview output for 3E looks like its being shot on the equivelant of a 1 megapixel camera.

But that's also the quality of their astra sd channel, 544 pixels. The old analogue PAL system was sharper at almost 700 dots. Fortunately, the match is in glorious 1920 on Premier hd if you have it, no Sky hd sub required.

deezell

Actually, if you do the maths, a 544 horizontal resolution on a 16:9 screen only requires a vertical resolution of 544x9 divided by 16, 306 pixels, so the required image would only be about 1.6 MPixels, the kind of quality available on mobile phones nearly ten years ago.

STB.

deezell wrote: »

Actually, if you do the maths, a 544 horizontal resolution on a 16:9 screen only requires a vertical resolution of 544x9 divided by 16, 306 pixels, so the required image would only be about 1.6 MPixels, the kind of quality available on mobile phones nearly ten years ago.

The video resolution is 528x576i, which is shíte alright.

Its when you further batter the bit rate down to that of a wattery mess that make it truly shocking.

Strawberry HillBilly

The downside of TV3 going HD is being able to see the plaster on Brian Kerrs head. LOL

deezell

Strawberry HillBilly wrote: »

The downside of TV3 going HD is being able to see the plaster on Brian Kerrs head. LOL

TV3 is now to be known as TV3 SHD, for shíte definition

reubenreuben

Whay does TV3 state that Ireland am is HD on the saorview EPG. It isn't HD.

brick man

reubenreuben wrote:

Whay does TV3 state that Ireland am is HD on the saorview EPG. It isn't HD.

I asked Saorview that very question on twitter a week ago and I am still waiting for a reply

galtee boy

That new weekend breakfast show is marked in " yellow" on the Sky Epg indicating "full" HD and not just upscaled. I suspect the same EPG information is being fed to Saorview and Sky, even though there is no HD on Saorview.

tlaavtech

Sam Russell wrote: »

Saorview could change the definition of the SD signal to 720/704 by 576i. This would improve the perceived quality greatly. It would have little impact on the charges to each broadcaster if they were all changed. I suspect TV3 deliberately reduce their bandwidth to fuzzy vision standards to reduce their charges as they have lower bandwidth than other broadcasters.

While they are at it it could also change HD to be 1920x1080 rather than RTE's stupid 1440x1080. Once you go to any large screen, the lack of pixel matching is really obvious.

(I can dream, can't I?)

Sam Russell

tlaavtech wrote: »

While they are at it it could also change HD to be 1920x1080 rather than RTE's stupid 1440x1080. Once you go to any large screen, the lack of pixel matching is really obvious.

(I can dream, can't I?)

They could do both. I suspect that it would make little difference to the share-out of the charges. And it would not require a third mux.