has cork city been ruined by bike lanes?

j8wk2feszrnpao

TINA1984 wrote: »

As a motorist myself I have no "issues" as you imply with my fellow drivers.

Your tone suggests otherwise.

TINA1984 wrote: »

And you can forgive my confusion, On the one hand you say you support cycling infrastructure investment, yet then you repeatedly mention how the state can't afford to build cycling infrastructure

There is no forgiving your confusion when you can read basic English and ignore what I was repeatedly said.

• Supports affodable cycling infrastructure.
• Don't believe that we can afford large/huge scale cycling infrastructure

TINA1984 wrote: »

you support the construction of Greenways, but then proceed to say you think the investments in cycling infrastructure are doomed to failure.

Yes, I support Greenways.
I never doomed investment in cycling infrastructure, repeatedly said this, and you continue to be obvious to what's written down before you.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Once again, you're not comparing like with like here. Not only are Preston & Blackpool considerably closer together then Cork/Limerick/Galway, they are in/near 2 of the largest metropolitan areas in the UK, with a combined population of 4m+. Cork/Limerick/Galway combined population, even with towns along the M20/17/18 route, represent a fraction of that and the motorway will have for most of its length nowhere near the amount of traffic as they will in the heavily urbanized NW of England.

You are not comparing like with like. I'm not speaking of Manchester, and it's motorways. Talk about moving the goalposts to suit your argument.
I gave you an example. Yet you provide nothing to back up your claim.
Blackpool (142,000) and Preston (140,500)
And yes it's a shorter journey, and yet a motorway between them all the same.

TINA1984 wrote: »

The NRA website is easy to navigate to find AADTs, the UK highways one less so, I'll leave it you to go googling to your hearts content.

Right, so data you've already researched and yet can't be bothered to display it.

TINA1984 wrote: »

When its come to spending, roads have traditionally had the lions share. We're slowly beginning to see this imbalance being rectified in urban areas, much to the anger of some motorists. Ime I've found that a lot of motorists are both impatient and have an aggressive/reckless attitude to cyclists.

Again another moan at motorists. You're as bad as those you dislike.

TINA1984

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Your tone suggests otherwise.

Behave.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

There is no forgiving your confusion when you can read basic English and ignore what I was repeatedly said.

• Supports affodable cycling infrastructure.
• Don't believe that we can afford large/huge scale cycling infrastructure

We're going round and round here so let's clear this up, you're saying in some posts we should look towards Amsterdam/Paris/London for inspiration for dedicated cycling infrastructure, instead of what has been installed on Wash St., but then in other posts you're saying we're not in a position to afford it?

munstermagic11 wrote: »

You are not comparing like with like. I'm not speaking of Manchester, and it's motorways. Talk about moving the goalposts to suit your argument.
I gave you an example. Yet you provide nothing to back up your claim.
Blackpool (142,000) and Preston (140,500)
And yes it's a shorter journey, and yet a motorway between them all the same.

It's all about population density or lack thereof, Blackpool and Preston are 2 small urban areas in or near 2 massive urban areas. Cork/Limerick/Galway are small urban areas far, far apart. You many not like it, but you're not comparing like with like here. Again.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Right, so data you've already researched and yet can't be bothered to display it.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nra+traffic+count+data

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=UK+highways+agency+traffic+count+data

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Again another moan at motorists. You're as bad as those you dislike.

My you've taken this very personally.

j8wk2feszrnpao

TINA1984 wrote: »

Behave.

No need to take it personally. I'm only pointing out what your tone and some of your words, towards motorists has suggested.

TINA1984 wrote: »

We're going round and round here so let's clear this up,......

No, you are going around in circles (and I suspect at this stage it may be deliberate).
If you are unable to read what's been clearly rewritten a number of times, then I'm not going to waste further time on this.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Blackpool and Preston are 2 small urban areas.

Yes, with a motorway between them. And it's not a the sole example within the UK and Europe.
Nothing to do with not liking your attempts to include the wider area (serviced by another other motorway in the area); it's just boring that you have to repeat questions when they've been answered.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nra+traffic+count+data
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=UK+highways+agency+traffic+count+data
Thank you for the links, even if you have to be juvenile to provide links to statements/stats that you claimed.
Haven't found anything yet to actually confirm your claim that there are "empty motorways".
I'd ask for you to display the data (as anyone would when making a claim such as that, and then asked for) but not looking for similar answered provided.

Anyways ..... that's it for me.
Said my piece and having to repeat myself isn't debate.
Save driving/walking/cycling to all.

TINA1984

munstermagic11 wrote: »

No need to take it personally. I'm only pointing out what your tone and some of your words, towards motorists has suggested.

No, you are going around in circles (and I suspect at this stage it may be deliberate).
If you are unable to read what's been clearly rewritten a number of times, then I'm not going to waste further time on this.


Yes, with a motorway between them. And it's not a the sole example within the UK and Europe.
Nothing to do with not liking your attempts to include the wider area (serviced by another other motorway in the area); it's just boring that you have to repeat questions when they've been answered.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nra+traffic+count+data
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=UK+highways+agency+traffic+count+data
Thank you for the links, even if you have to be juvenile to provide links to statements/stats that you claimed.
Haven't found anything yet to actually confirm your claim that there are "empty motorways".
I'd ask for you to display the data (as anyone would when making a claim such as that, and then asked for) but not looking for similar answered provided.

Anyways ..... that's it for me.
Said my piece and having to repeat myself isn't debate.
Save driving/walking/cycling to all.

bladebrew

I think even the motorist's on here want proper cycle lanes, cyclist should have space away from cars, but it is difficult to retrofit it into a city like Cork,
I would have thought the Council would have to do a study into this before they spent any money to see if it makes sense, like the famous well road roundabout, It's not actually bad now it's done but it also wasn't bad before, they spent €1m to fix a problem that wasn't there, but they don't answer to anyone so nobody cares!
Are the cycle lanes overkill? Have they asked people would they begin to commute by bicycle with new cycle lanes? People might be delayed by 5 minutes but they won't buy a bike because of that, the council won't force people out of their cars with a bit of traffic, they may force cars out to Mahon/Wilton and Douglas though!

Harry Angstrom

bladebrew wrote: »

I think even the motorist's on here want proper cycle lanes, cyclist should have space away from cars, but it is difficult to retrofit it into a city like Cork,
I would have thought the Council would have to do a study into this before they spent any money to see if it makes sense, like the famous well road roundabout, It's not actually bad now it's done but it also wasn't bad before, they spent €1m to fix a problem that wasn't there, but they don't answer to anyone so nobody cares!
Are the cycle lanes overkill? Have they asked people would they begin to commute by bicycle with new cycle lanes? People might be delayed by 5 minutes but they won't buy a bike because of that, the council won't force people out of their cars with a bit of traffic, they may force cars out to Mahon/Wilton and Douglas though!

Perhaps when people see how the cycle lanes might benefit them, they may actually decide to get out of their gas-guzzling cars and cycle to work instead. One can only hope. If not, that's their lookout. The lanes are in place and the incentive to cycle is there.
I was almost knocked off my bike today by a doddery old fart who, for some reason, decided to drive tight into the footpath whilst passing me. If a cycle lane with a proper kerb had been in place, the only damage done would have been to him and his car, and I doubt he would've been so stupid in the first place.

Bacchus

My God Tina and MM, that escalated quickly. To weigh in on it, MM has made his stance VERY EXTREMELY clear. Tina, you're borderline trolling at this point IMO. So what if MM looks to other cities for inspiration, what has that got to do with what we can/can't afford. It's only inspiration FFS, not a carbon copy implementation. His point about funding are crystal clear too, "funding for cycle infrastructure - yay!", "wasting huge amounts of money on cycle infrastructure - nay!" Where's the problem with this that's causing all your confusion.

And so what about the motorways between Ireland's cities? What has that got to do with cycle lanes in Cork. Even if you're looking at a money spent vs return angle I'm sure the motorways have been a huge success. Think of the amount of business that is done around this country thanks to those roads. A 3-4 hour Limerick-Dublin trip cut down to under 2 hours. A 4 hour Galway-Dublin trip cut down to 2 hours. How is this even an argument?! Would you prefer they were never built? Is that what you're getting at?

Balmed Out

never get the motorist vs driver vitriol. I do both as I imagine most have at one point or another. There are dodgy drivers and dodgy cyclists.

TINA1984

Bacchus wrote: »

My God Tina and MM, that escalated quickly. To weigh in on it, MM has made his stance VERY EXTREMELY clear. Tina, you're borderline trolling at this point IMO. So what if MM looks to other cities for inspiration, what has that got to do with what we can/can't afford. It's only inspiration FFS, not a carbon copy implementation. His point about funding are crystal clear too, "funding for cycle infrastructure - yay!", "wasting huge amounts of money on cycle infrastructure - nay!" Where's the problem with this that's causing all your confusion.

tbh MM comes across as like he's a bit of a flip-flopper, after all I can only go on what he has typed.

He decries the lack of a "plan" when it comes to implementing cycling infrastructure, its pointed out to him there is a "plan"...he doesn't think it'll work.

Then he keeps on mentioning foreign examples being better then what we're doing on Wash St...but we can't afford it, nurses and special needs dontcha know...

But we are building an expensive Greenway network modelled on Europe...he does support it

But he doesn't think anything will work anyway, after all isn't Cork & Ireland too wet and hilly for this sort of thing?

Then he gets a bit snotty, not just with me but with a few others who have different opinions to him.

My suspicion is MM supports cycling infrastructure, just not infrastructure that inconveniences him. Like the Wash St lanes.

Bacchus wrote: »

And so what about the motorways between Ireland's cities? What has that got to do with cycle lanes in Cork. Even if you're looking at a money spent vs return angle I'm sure the motorways have been a huge success. Think of the amount of business that is done around this country thanks to those roads. A 3-4 hour Limerick-Dublin trip cut down to under 2 hours. A 4 hour Galway-Dublin trip cut down to 2 hours. How is this even an argument?! Would you prefer they were never built? Is that what you're getting at?

Yeah to be fair you're going even further off topic by mentioning the Dublin - Limerick Motorway & Dublin - Galway Motorway. Neither myself nor MM were discussing those roads, Just the Atlantic Corridor. Perhaps if you'd read back over the past few pages you'd have a better idea of why we were discussing it?

ComeraghBlue

It would be great if the car drivers of Cork could stop parking in the new bike lanes!

Balmed Out

ComeraghBlue wrote: »

It would be great if the car drivers of Cork could stop parking in the new bike lanes!

By the silver key is hilarious

Red Nissan

Balmed Out wrote: »

By the silver key is hilarious

It used to be a truck stop you might remember. Far too many needs for roadside parking here to have a dedicated cycle lane imo.

The Silver Key itself, Cork Con, GAA's two parks, the funeral home, school open days and I'm sure I've forgotten a few.

Stepping Stone

The issue with parking by the Silvery Quay is compounded by the fact that it doesn't necessarily look like a cycle lane. If you were looking for parking, saw a space and took it (without prior knowledge of the area) you could be forgiven for the mistake because there is just a sign at the end telling you that the cycle lane has ended. They need more visible signage and actual enforcement to keep it car free. That said, I would wonder how used it would be anyway, since the roads are not swept very well and there is probably quite a bit of debris collection there (issue with maintenance, not cycling infrastructure).

Bacchus

TINA1984 wrote: »

Yeah to be fair you're going even further off topic by mentioning the Dublin - Limerick Motorway & Dublin - Galway Motorway. Neither myself nor MM were discussing those roads, Just the Atlantic Corridor. Perhaps if you'd read back over the past few pages you'd have a better idea of why we were discussing it?

Ah give over, you mentioned a bunch of roads yourself, M20, M18, M17. What difference does what roads I list. My point is the motorways have nothing to do with cycle lanes in the first place.

As for the other part of your post. I haven't seen MM to be a flipflopper at all. He's been consistent in what he says.

There is an apparent lack of a plan with the cycle lanes. Noone has pointed out that there IS a plan. Some have suggested in 10 years we might see one but (pardon my language) fcuk that. If you're going to do a job do it right.

He has a point that parts of Cork are too hilly to have successful cycle lanes but that doesn't mean he (or anyone else) is against cycle lanes. A pointed that has been repeated and you keep ignoring.

TINA1984

Bacchus wrote: »

Ah give over, you mentioned a bunch of roads yourself, M20, M18, M17. What difference does what roads I list. My point is the motorways have nothing to do with cycle lanes in the first place.

No, you "give over", the discussion went off on a tangent with regards to general infrastructure spend and potential AADTs on the Atlantic Corridor, which is the M20/17/18, and has nothing to do with Dublin which you mentioned. Like I said if you cared to read my and MM's back and forth on topic you'll see why we were discussing it. Please do that rather replying again on why you think its pointless.

Bacchus wrote: »

As for the other part of your post. I haven't seen MM to be a flipflopper at all. He's been consistent in what he says.

That's not how I read it.

Bacchus wrote: »

There is an apparent lack of a plan with the cycle lanes. Noone has pointed out that there IS a plan. Some have suggested in 10 years we might see one but (pardon my language) fcuk that. If you're going to do a job do it right.

There is a plan, both locally and nationally namely revolving around the national cycling strategy. Some very quick googling would have made you realise this. Remember, just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Bacchus wrote: »

He has a point that parts of Cork are too hilly to have successful cycle lanes but that doesn't mean he (or anyone else) is against cycle lanes. A pointed that has been repeated and you keep ignoring.

And as has been repeated in this thread and which YOU keep ignoring, there are examples of wet and hilly cities where cycling has taken off. Cork is not unique no matter what some of its denizens like to think

Bacchus

I'm joining munstermagic11 and leaving this farce of a conversation. You believe what you want to believe Tina and 'read it' however suits you. I'm not wasting any more time repeating myself.

FrStone

Bacchus wrote: »

I'm joining munstermagic11 and leaving this farce of a conversation. You believe what you want to believe Tina and 'read it' however suits you. I'm not wasting any more time repeating myself.

I wonder will Tina reply to this with another bullying and condescending image, like munstermagic11 received...

TINA1984

Bacchus wrote: »

I'm joining munstermagic11 and leaving this farce of a conversation. You believe what you want to believe Tina and 'read it' however suits you. I'm not wasting any more time repeating myself.

FrStone wrote: »

I wonder will Tina reply to this with another
bullying and condescending image, like munstermagic11 received...

Probably for the best, its not like either of ye guys actually contributed anything to the thread

Bacchus

Some sense seems to have prevailed, at least on Proby's Quay anyway, the parking spaces have been moved back away from the traffic lights by about 3 or 4 car lengths. This has helped avoid the "is the car parked or in line at the lights" confusion and gives more space to allow traffic going left to progress without being held up by traffic waiting to turn right. Shows how ridiculous the original layout was but at least the council fixed it promptly.

There is a new problem there though that I've only noticed since they painted on the cycle lane markings. That lane is contra flow. The only way for cyclist to get to that lane is a rather dangerous manoeuvre cutting across traffic on Bishop Street. There is no right turn there so cyclists HAVE to cut across traffic that will be continuing on straight. Not the end of the world I guess but I would have thought a cycle lane continuing straight on would have made more sense and the Proby's Quay one should be in the same direction as traffic.

I've noticed a lot of the cycle lanes are contra-flow too. In my opinion, that doesn't really take bikes off the road to the safety of the cycle lane. It just introduces a weird two direction system in a city where most streets are one way. Any cyclists have an opinion on that one?

hallo dare

You should see Dundalk OP. Must be the same chap that designed both!!!

Malari

Bacchus wrote: »

I've noticed a lot of the cycle lanes are contra-flow too. In my opinion, that doesn't really take bikes off the road to the safety of the cycle lane. It just introduces a weird two direction system in a city where most streets are one way. Any cyclists have an opinion on that one?

It seems like a fair few cyclists have NOT noticed that they are contra-flow! I keep meeting them coming towards me the wrong way. Maybe it needs to be made more apparent with signs.

As far as the two-way system goes, I can see how in a city that is largely one-way, many cyclists will be tempted to just head down a one-way street the wrong way. Maybe this is an attempt to legitimise that. I know on my own commute of only 3-4km I have to go through two or three one-way systems that lengthen the trip. Sure, only slightly, but a lot of "pedestrians on bikes" will go on footpaths and avoid a longer trip if they can.

Bacchus

Malari wrote: »

It seems like a fair few cyclists have NOT noticed that they are contra-flow! I keep meeting them coming towards me the wrong way. Maybe it needs to be made more apparent with signs.

As far as the two-way system goes, I can see how in a city that is largely one-way, many cyclists will be tempted to just head down a one-way street the wrong way. Maybe this is an attempt to legitimise that. I know on my own commute of only 3-4km I have to go through two or three one-way systems that lengthen the trip. Sure, only slightly, but a lot of "pedestrians on bikes" will go on footpaths and avoid a longer trip if they can.

I think they are starting to roll out the signs and markings indicating direction in the lanes.

I can see how being able to go contra flow will create short cuts for cyclists by not having to follow the potentially longer "with flow" route but if one of the objectives was road safety by providing dedicated cycle lanes, do contra-flow lane do the opposite?

Sticking down by Proby's Quay. In a way I can see the logic, the cycle lane of Proby's Quay flows on to another contra flow lane on South Main. However, Sullivan's Quay is also contra flow. How exactly does a cyclist safely get on to the Sullivan's Quay lane coming from Proby's Quay? As I said, I'm not taking major issue with this, I can see how the shortcuts benefit cyclists. I'm just trying to understand how the logic of putting in all these contra flow cycle lanes in a predominantly one-way road network works in terms of road safety.

You do make a good point though, a lot of cyclists go down the wrong way on one way streets quite often, or go on the footpath. Perhaps that is the intention of the contra-flow lanes, to combat that.

Malari

Bacchus wrote: »

Sticking down by Proby's Quay. In a way I can see the logic, the cycle lane of Proby's Quay flows on to another contra flow lane on South Main. However, Sullivan's Quay is also contra flow. How exactly does a cyclist safely get on to the Sullivan's Quay lane coming from Proby's Quay? As I said, I'm not taking major issue with this, I can see how the shortcuts benefit cyclists. I'm just trying to understand how the logic of putting in all these contra flow cycle lanes in a predominantly one-way road network works in terms of road safety.

From a safety perspective, it's not so much the contra-flow itself, but that you are now in the direct path of cars coming out of side-streets, etc.

There still isn't a lot of joined up routes. When I see a new contra-flow I'll use it just to see how it works out. I've come down the Mardyke pedestrian area and had to cross over on to the footpath to use the Western Road one. But they are using bike traffic lights now to help with side-road crossing.

The Proby's Quay one - there's no way to get on to Sullivan's Quay. I cross on the footbridge and head on to the Mall. Are cyclists allowed on the footbridge? I don't know. You just come to an end of a cycle path and....no clues what they expect you to do!

Knasher

The traffic lights don't do the contra flow lanes any favours either, at least on Popes Quay. When you are coming down Shandon St. the crossing light is set to turn green at the same time as the light for traffic down from Shandon. So to turn onto that cycle lane always involves crossing a green crossing light, or breaking a red. Does this mean that you should only be able to legally get onto that lane if you are coming from Sundays Well?

TheChizler

Presumably they'll address most of these issues in due course, there's way too many for them to have simply forgotten about.

kampik

Road paintings on Popes Quay indicates two ways, but if you go direction from BierHaus to Shandon, the road signs (arrows) indicate to leave the cycle lane.
The other thing is cycling on South main street on the road because of one way cycle lane. If cyclist is very slow it must be frustrating for a driver to see possibly empty cycle lane not being used.

TheChizler

kampik wrote: »

The other thing is cycling on South main street on the road because of one way cycle lane. If cyclist is very slow it must be frustrating for a driver to see possibly empty cycle lane not being used.

Shouldn't be a problem with parked cars blocking the lane!

jabberwock

kampik wrote: »

Road paintings on Popes Quay indicates two ways, but if you go direction from BierHaus to Shandon, the road signs (arrows) indicate to leave the cycle lane.

You are meant to cross out on to the road to take your turn near the end. The last 20 meters on the right is for contraflow coming from North Mall.

kampik

jabberwock wrote: »

You are meant to cross out on to the road to take your turn near the end. The last 20 meters on the right is for contraflow coming from North Mall.

I don't mean that bit, it's all the way from BierHouse. Tiny circle signs with arrows.

TheChizler

Probably a bit late into the process but I'm not sure it's been pointed out here before. A pretty comprehensive set of drawings outlining the plans provided by irishcycle here. You can see where all the planned warning signs etc are. These are just tender drawings but I think they're pretty close to the finalised set.