has cork city been ruined by bike lanes?

ofcork

Taxis are being allowed to park outside reardens at night,makes things tight alright.

Dave47

ofcork wrote: »

Taxis are being allowed to park outside reardens at night,makes things tight alright.

I see cars parked on the bike lane there everyday- it's a joke to cycle on as it stands- if was actually being used a bit there'd have been an accident already.

Dannyboy83

Max_Charger wrote: »

cycling is one of the fastest growing sports in Ireland with memberships of Cycling Ireland growing 500% since 2007 helped by the bike to work scheme.

Why do you think this not reflected in the commuting statics?

http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=723
Cork City has relatively low public transport usage, just 8% of commuters in the city and the suburbs using public transport compared to 21% in Dublin. Cork also has a relatively low cycling share with just 2% of commuters using bikes to get to and from school and work.

My assumption is that cycle lanes won't make much difference, since most employers do not provide shower facilities in the workplace, and many require formal attire.

Max_Charger wrote: »

And then goes on to contradict himself in the same sentence saying the Douglas road is "well used" but will only help a "handful".

I don't see the contradiction myself.

He said the Douglas road bike lane is well used, but he guesses the uptake by 'new' cyclists (i.e. those who didn't already cycle) will be 0. It's quite similar to the "Healthy User Bias" effect.

Therefore the major upheaval across Cork City will only help the 2% of cyclist who already commute in Cork City - which when spread out across the city doesn't even feel like 2%, but a handful.

FrStone

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

My assumption is that cycle lanes won't make much difference, since most employers do not provide shower facilities in the workplace, and many require formal attire.

You are on the ball here. Even if I lived a 20 minute cycle from work that took just as long in a car I would still have to drive. I need to wear a suit for work. I can't arrive in all sweaty and with no possibility of showering until I get home. It just isn't practical.

FrStone

Max_Charger wrote: »

Most of the posters here don't understand reasoned debate until you start making stuff up.

Oh no, it's obvious that I'm in the minority in this debate. How do I get out of this, lets dismiss their intelligence. :rolleyes:

cgcsb

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

By attempting to retrofit cycle lanes on many of the busiest thoroughfares in Cork, they have removed vital overflow lanes and reduced the most congested areas of the city to a single lane, despite no reduction in the actual throughput.

that's how cycle lanes are generally built.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Personally I have entirely stopped doing any business or shopping in the city centre, as well as cancelling membership of a gym where I had been a member for 12 years.

I think you're being a tad dramatic. It's a bicycle lane.

VWD8

I cant understand how anyone can defend those cycle lanes on Washington street. I actually get the point about reducing cars and making more room for public transport and bikes. But this new layout has destroyed the quality of the bus services on that route. I travel that street almost every day, It is reguarly taking the 205/208 30-40 minutes to get from the bus station to the Courthouse! There used NEVER be delays here before the cycle lanes went in. How is that going to encourage people to use public transport? Along with making driving into the city impossible, it also makes using public transport a nightmare - Result: People wont come into the city.

Max_Charger

FrStone wrote: »

Oh no, it's obvious that I'm in the minority in this debate. How do I get out of this, lets dismiss their intelligence. :rolleyes:

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

My assumption is that cycle lanes won't make much difference



but he guesses

Like I said, guessing, assuming and gems like "90% of cyclists are at fault". I don't have to resort to sarcastic smilies to get my point across either.
People assumed and guessed Dublin bike would be a stupid idea and will never take off, turned out to be the complete opposite. Time will only tell with this as well.

bladebrew

Max_Charger wrote: »

Like this man here, guessing is the only way! Despite the fact cycling is one of the fastest growing sports in Ireland with memberships of Cycling Ireland growing 500% since 2007 helped by the bike to work scheme.
And then goes on to contradict himself in the same sentence saying the Douglas road is "well used" but will only help a "handful".

When I say well used I mean you might see 4-5 cyclists between the city and Douglas,I don't see much more than that, meanwhile the bus drives by with 50-60 people on it! I was trying to find a positive example, the Douglas cycle lane i assume works, cyclists use it, motorists don't need the space, but remodelling the City for a minority is a waste of money in my opinion,

The council have simply guessed everyone will start cycling now so why can't I guess?

We're there not studies done before they started all the work?, everyone has a utopia of canals and cycle lanes in their heads but it won't happen, look at the weather it's May and it's still feckin cold, how many people are reconsidering cycling to work because of new cycle lanes?, 0 I think.

pwurple

FrStone wrote: »

You are on the ball here. Even if I lived a 20 minute cycle from work that took just as long in a car I would still have to drive. I need to wear a suit for work. I can't arrive in all sweaty and with no possibility of showering until I get home. It just isn't practical.

You don't need to get sweaty cycling, the same way you don't get sweaty walking. Just take the pace easy, it's not a race. When I cycle into town i'm not a ball of sweat, and I've a kid on the back carrier as well for a bit of extra weight.

FrStone

pwurple wrote: »

You don't need to get sweaty cycling, the same way you don't get sweaty walking. Just take the pace easy, it's not a race. When I cycle into town i'm not a ball of sweat, and I've a kid on the back carrier as well for a bit of extra weight.

Ok, but what does one do when it rains? I also could see my suit pants getting splashed going through puddles etc

AugustusMinimus

Max_Charger wrote: »

Like I said, guessing, assuming and gems like "90% of cyclists are at fault". I don't have to resort to sarcastic smilies to get my point across either.
People assumed and guessed Dublin bike would be a stupid idea and will never take off, turned out to be the complete opposite. Time will only tell with this as well.

So in essence you are guessing that it will do well in Cork while you dismiss out of hand people who are saying how traffic has increased dramatically since the introduction of these half thought out cycle lanes.

evilivor

FrStone wrote: »

Ok, but what does one do when it rains? I also could see my suit pants getting splashed going through puddles etc

That's why people wear wet gear. You'd swear the Cork was the only city where people had to turn up in in suit - people manage in every other city.

AugustusMinimus

evilivor wrote: »

That's why people wear wet gear. You'd swear the Cork was the only city where people had to turn up in in suit - people manage in every other city.

Do you wear a suit and cycle to work ?

Considering how windy Cork is, you'll get drowned even walking to work when raining.

FrStone

evilivor wrote: »

That's why people wear wet gear. You'd swear the Cork was the only city where people had to turn up in in suit - people manage in every other city.

Really? I've never seen someone wear a suit and cycle to work. The only people I do know who cylce to work and have to wear a suit - have showering facilities in their office and get changed in there.

I can't imagine that a suit would hold up well on a bike anyway, the trousers would surely rip?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Cork has very mild weather conditions virtually all year round, making it perfectly conducive to cycling.

Saying that the cycle lanes will prevent people from coming into town because of traffic congestion and push more people out to use Mahon Point is rather silly, Mahon Point has one lane into it and one lane out, its the worst bottleneck in the city by far, even on Saturdays you have enormous tailbacks, Saturdays!!!

We need cycle lanes one way or another people, better for the environment, better for the waistline and better for the pocket.

Max_Charger

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

So in essence you are guessing that it will do well in Cork

Where did I say that? I said time will tell, meaning it could fail spectacularly or work out well, none of us know. But to guess the uptake will be 0 with a city of a couple hundred thousand is poorly thought out.

pwurple

FrStone wrote: »

Ok, but what does one do when it rains? I also could see my suit pants getting splashed going through puddles etc

Oh yes, splashes are a pain, especially from buses! Hence my hatred of the bike/bus combo lane.

When it rains I can walk to the bus with an umbrella.

Or I can drive.

Or I can put waterproof overthings on.

You'd have to be pretty hardcore to cycle every weather I think, i'm just not that hardcore. I only do it when it's nice!

My husband wears a suit to work, he goes on the motorcycle every day (except for ice). He just puts rainproof gear on over his clothes. It's possible if you really really want to alright.

Ps, if you've been to amsterdam you'll see people cycling in full suits all the time.

Dannyboy83

cgcsb wrote: »

that's how cycle lanes are generally built.

Agree, but I think you missed my point.

Dublin has an excellent orbital road, a light rail system, and a Bus Rapid transit system is being implemented. Dublin has multiple alternatives due to the rather good (by Irish standards) public transport and infrastructure.

Hamburg has an orbital road.
Vilnius has an orbital road.
London has an orbital road.
...
In most cities where these types of improvements succeed, alternative infrastructure has been implemented or there is reasonable alternative which acts as a 'release valve'.

Cork is rather unique in that it doesn't have either.

It may appear that I'm anti-cycle lane - I am not.
I am pro-cycling lane or anything which enhances the city.

The manner in which this project has been implemented means it will not act as an enhancement for the city, but as a set back for the city.

I think you're being a tad dramatic. It's a bicycle lane.

I would say 'drastic' rather than 'dramatic', but yes, I agree.

As an example, my journey to the gym from the outskirts of Cork used to take 20-25minutes.
The drastic changes to the layout had increased my commute time to nearly 50mins on a regular basis.

On a weekend I wouldn't mind, but on a weekday, I have neither the time nor the energy.

Drastic action forced a drastic reaction.

Dannyboy83

pwurple wrote: »

You don't need to get sweaty cycling, the same way you don't get sweaty walking. Just take the pace easy, it's not a race. When I cycle into town i'm not a ball of sweat, and I've a kid on the back carrier as well for a bit of extra weight.

Sweating more is a sign of good fitness:
http://trainright.com/chris-carmichael-blog-does-sweating-more-mean-youre-more-fit/

Regardless, that argument relies on two variables
Speed - which you can control
Gradient - which you cannot.

I actually work with a few high-level amateur cyclists who are trying to convince our employer to install shower facilities so that they can cycle to work.
Speed is not their problem, Gradient is.

Dannyboy83

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

We need cycle lanes one way or another people, better for the environment, better for the waistline and better for the pocket.

All of these may be true under certain conditions.
I would argue the reverse is true in our specific case.




Better for the waistline - The healthy user bias applies here. The people who would stand to benefit from cycling, are the people least likely to engage in it.

Better for the pocket -
In our case, it's much worse, as we now have to commute much longer distances.
But for the individual who can avail of cycling, there is the immediate advantage of not paying for petrol several days of the week certainly. But the car must still be taxed and insured. And then lies idle.
There is also the initial expense of purchasing the bike.



Better for the environment - This is the one I'm most sceptical of really.
This thread is largely rooted in the chaotic traffic conditions which are developing.
Chaotic traffic conditions force people out of their regular route (usually the shortest) onto alternative routes (typically longer).
Take an indiviaul who would normally engage in a commute from Ballinlough to Blackpool for Shopping. 4.5km
They now instead choose to engage in an alternative commute (Ballinlough to Carrigaline). 11.6km or Ballinlough to Ballincollig 14.7km

Either scenario means an almost doubling of distances travelled.

Now that might seem a bit extreme but in my case, it's an increase from 8.1km to 60km to attend the gym. Despite the further distance I'm getting there faster than I can drive to the gym in the city, with numerous other advantages such as a better gym and no parking issues.

There are 4 other people who I train with who have made the same change as I have, as a consequence of the traffic chaos and we all work in different locations, so we cannot carpool.

5x9km= 45km
5x60km = 300km

So you will need 60 people to leave their cars at home everyday and start cycling, just to balance out the effect of the 5 of us being forced to commute longer distances.

Dannyboy83

FrStone wrote: »

Really? I've never seen someone wear a suit and cycle to work. The only people I do know who cylce to work and have to wear a suit - have showering facilities in their office and get changed in there.

I can't imagine that a suit would hold up well on a bike anyway, the trousers would surely rip?

Not to mention the fact that if you have to wear a suit, you probably have a public facing role.

Do you really want to meet clients "looking like you've cycled to work in your suit!":D

TINA1984

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Agree, but I think you missed my point.

Dublin has an excellent orbital road, a light rail system, and a Bus Rapid transit system is being implemented. Dublin has multiple alternatives due to the rather good (by Irish standards) public transport and infrastructure.

Let's say Cork did get a Light Rail System and/or a BRT, who do you think is going to whinge most about trams and busways taking away streets completely from cars? could you imagine the uproar from the same people in this thread when you'd put it to them that Washington St. will be completely closed to cars to facilitate tracks and power lines?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Hamburg has an orbital road.
Vilnius has an orbital road.
London has an orbital road.
...
In most cities where these types of improvements succeed, alternative infrastructure has been implemented or there is reasonable alternative which acts as a 'release valve'.

Cork is rather unique in that it doesn't have either.

London? Hamburg? You're not comparing like with like here.

Max_Charger

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Now that might seem a bit extreme but in my case, it's an increase from 8.1km to 60km to attend the gym. Despite the further distance I'm getting there faster than I can drive to the gym in the city, with numerous other advantages such as a better gym and no parking issues.

Driving 60km to the gym is slightly insane imo. You could cycle the 16 km to and from the gym faster than the 60km one way, even if you were cycling really slowly.

rob316

Bottom line you can't make an already congested city more congested to cater for a relatively small cyclist population.

Cycle lanes and wide footpaths are fine but it has only contributed to the problem, the real problem is stemming the flow of traffic into the city.

Dannyboy83

TINA1984 wrote: »

Let's say Cork did get a Light Rail System and/or a BRT, who do you think is going to whinge most about trams and busways taking away streets completely from cars? could you imagine the uproar from the same people in this thread when you'd put it to them that Washington St. will be completely closed to cars to facilitate tracks and power lines?

It may appear as whinging to you, but I genuinely don't perceive any whinging in the thread, from either side of the debate. All of the reasons put forward, for and against, have been founded.

Emotive language aside however, I would argue that a light rail system or a BRT would be significantly harder to argue against.

There are multiple valid arguments against cycling lanes, but the primary argument as far as I can see, is that it benefits a particularly small group of people, while disadvantaging a significant group of people.
In this respect, it has very poor 'bang for buck' and the public perception is that it is swelling congestion, not decreasing it.

It would be exceptionally difficult to uphold a similar argument where Light Rail or a BRT are concerned
- it's accessible to all people without exclusion, elderly, disabled, obese.
- Weather conditions are not relevant.
- Gradient/distance are not relevant.
- Shower facilities are not required.
- Public perception is that it would make a significant dent in congestion

The 'bang for buck' is bountiful.

London? Hamburg? You're not comparing like with like here.

That's true; the reason being that there are very few cities comparable to Cork without an orbital road or an adequate public transport system, yet do have segregated cycling facilities.
I suspect that's for good reason.

Therefore I compared to cities where a similar project has been a notable success.

Dave47

rob316 wrote: »

Bottom line you can't make an already congested city more congested to cater for a relatively small cyclist population.

Cycle lanes and wide footpaths are fine but it has only contributed to the problem, the real problem is stemming the flow of traffic into the city.

They're trying to reduce congestion with the cycle lanes, bus lanes and the new walk from the train station. I agree that it's not working though- basically just an omnishambles at the moment.

Bigger question I have is why wasn't patrick street designed with a cycle lane if one is being put on washington street? Not much point in cycle lanes if they don't cover the part of the city that would be most used.

Dannyboy83

Max_Charger wrote: »

Driving 60km to the gym is slightly insane imo. You could cycle the 16 km to and from the gym faster than the 60km one way, even if you were cycling really slowly.

The journey from work to the gym one way is 30km one way, 60km return.
It takes about 30mins avg.

Were I to cycle to work, it would 9km home to work, 8km work to city gym, 17km gym to home.

In any case, I would need the car for work, equipment and other obligations.

pwurple

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Sweating more is a sign of good fitness:
http://trainright.com/chris-carmichael-blog-does-sweating-more-mean-youre-more-fit/

Regardless, that argument relies on two variables
Speed - which you can control
Gradient - which you cannot.

I actually work with a few high-level amateur cyclists who are trying to convince our employer to install shower facilities so that they can cycle to work.
Speed is not their problem, Gradient is.

To cycle into the city from almost anywhere is downhill. Who gets sweaty freewheeling downhill?

Ps, would love a light rail system. Even use the existing cork - passage west old railway line.

namloc1980

pwurple wrote: »

Ps, would love a light rail system. Even use the existing cork - passage west old railway line.

Never going to happen. We don't even have a half decent normal bus service so a LRT is just fantasy. Overall the transport infrastructure in Cork is awful in nearly all respects.