has cork city been ruined by bike lanes?

FrStone

TINA1984 wrote: »

Let's say Cork did get a Light Rail System and/or a BRT, who do you think is going to whinge most about trams and busways taking away streets completely from cars? could you imagine the uproar from the same people in this thread when you'd put it to them that Washington St. will be completely closed to cars to facilitate tracks and power lines?

I doubt you would get many complaining at all if a Light Rail System was introduced. It would dramatically reduce congestion. It would be highly utilised and wouldn't have been built for a small group of people.

FrStone

Another problem with putting in cycle lanes is that no matter how many cycle lanes are put in I live too far away to cycle in. There is also no bus service serving me. If I want to get into Cork city I have to drive. I reckon there are many others who have to drive too. Most people who are on a bus route seem to use it.

Sonics2k

I'm a cyclist and a driver. Cycling is a fantastic method of getting to work easily as I live in Blackrock and buses get expensive over the course of a month and can be very irregular depending on the traffic going in and out of the city.

On rainy days I have wet gear I bring with me, and my work clothes are either kept at work overnight or I bring my clothes with me in a bag. I'm rarely if ever very sweaty when I get to work.

As for the cycle lanes, even I'll admit they're awful on Washington Street and elsewhere. Hell, they even seem to randomly disappear which can be dangerous for cyclists and drivers. Whoever placed the lanes is a bit of a moron tbh and they aren't even well maintained.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

All of these may be true under certain conditions.
I would argue the reverse is true in our specific case.




Better for the waistline - The healthy user bias applies here. The people who would stand to benefit from cycling, are the people least likely to engage in it.

Everyone benefits from cycling, the more its facilitated and made easier for people the better.

Better for the pocket -
In our case, it's much worse, as we now have to commute much longer distances.
But for the individual who can avail of cycling, there is the immediate advantage of not paying for petrol several days of the week certainly. But the car must still be taxed and insured. And then lies idle.
There is also the initial expense of purchasing the bike.

A bike is a little capital investment with almost zero maintenance costs. Nobody is going to dump their car because they bought a bike, you can own both, and the more you use your bike the more money you will have in your pocket.

Better for the environment - This is the one I'm most sceptical of really.
This thread is largely rooted in the chaotic traffic conditions which are developing.
Chaotic traffic conditions force people out of their regular route (usually the shortest) onto alternative routes (typically longer).
Take an indiviaul who would normally engage in a commute from Ballinlough to Blackpool for Shopping. 4.5km
They now instead choose to engage in an alternative commute (Ballinlough to Carrigaline). 11.6km or Ballinlough to Ballincollig 14.7km

Either scenario means an almost doubling of distances travelled.

Now that might seem a bit extreme but in my case, it's an increase from 8.1km to 60km to attend the gym. Despite the further distance I'm getting there faster than I can drive to the gym in the city, with numerous other advantages such as a better gym and no parking issues.

There are 4 other people who I train with who have made the same change as I have, as a consequence of the traffic chaos and we all work in different locations, so we cannot carpool.

5x9km= 45km
5x60km = 300km

So you will need 60 people to leave their cars at home everyday and start cycling, just to balance out the effect of the 5 of us being forced to commute longer distances.

What in the name of god are you talking about here?
If you live in Ballinlough you would shop in town, Douglas or Mahon, Blackpool and Carrigaline ïs non applicable.

I am biased, I love cycling, town has been dodgy to navigate in the past, cycle lanes are a good thing for the city centre.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

FrStone wrote: »

Another problem with putting in cycle lanes is that no matter how many cycle lanes are put in I live too far away to cycle in. There is also no bus service serving me. If I want to get into Cork city I have to drive. I reckon there are many others who have to drive too. Most people who are on a bus route seem to use it.

So you don't live in Cork City then...?

FrStone

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

So you don't live in Cork City then...?

No, but I work in Cork city and commute in. I live about 20km from the city centre.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

FrStone wrote: »

No, but I work in Cork city and commute in. I live about 20km from the city centre.

That would be a big ask of you to go to and from work on a bike so. You have to use a car realistically.

FrStone

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

That would be a big ask of you to go to and from work on a bike so. You have to use a car realistically.

Yeah that's what I'm saying. I reckon a large proportion of workers in the city centre have to commute in by car. Look at those living in Whitechurch, Grenagh, Coachford, Donoughmore etc. The vast majority of people living in these areas don't actually work locally. They commute to work. Some will go to the suburbs but many will have to go to the city centre.

The above are not well served by public transport and where they are served by public transport the bus generally stops in the village. There is a large hinterland around each of these areas and people would have to walk/drive/cycle a few miles to the bus stop. There just is no other realistic option but to drive. That's my main problem with the cycle lanes (in certain areas of the city) they increase congestion and a large amount of commuters in and out of the city have only got the option to drive.

whisky_galore

pwurple wrote: »

Ps, would love a light rail system. Even use the existing cork - passage west old railway line.

Even if the magic money fairy waved its wand, the people that use it would object....possibly including those that use it as a dog-toilet...:mad:...but I digress.

pwurple

FrStone wrote: »

Yeah that's what I'm saying. I reckon a large proportion of workers in the city centre have to commute in by car. Look at those living in Whitechurch, Grenagh, Coachford, Donoughmore etc. The vast majority of people living in these areas don't actually work locally. They commute to work. Some will go to the suburbs but many will have to go to the city centre.

The above are not well served by public transport and where they are served by public transport the bus generally stops in the village. There is a large hinterland around each of these areas and people would have to walk/drive/cycle a few miles to the bus stop. There just is no other realistic option but to drive. That's my main problem with the cycle lanes (in certain areas of the city) they increase congestion and a large amount of commuters in and out of the city have only got the option to drive.

That is my major issue with historic planning in this country. Houses allowed to be built miles from services instead of restricting to towns and villages. It destroys villages and towns because of lack of passing walking trade... And causes people to have to drive all over the place.

pwurple

whisky_galore wrote: »

Even if the magic money fairy waved its wand, the people that use it would object....possibly including those that use it as a dog-toilet...:mad:...but I digress.

I use that track a lot, great flat spot to teach a kid to ride their bike.. Only half the width is paved. You could add a light rail system and not even bother the dog walkers.

cgcsb

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Agree, but I think you missed my point.

Dublin has an excellent orbital road, a light rail system, and a Bus Rapid transit system is being implemented. Dublin has multiple alternatives due to the rather good (by Irish standards) public transport and infrastructure.

Hamburg has an orbital road.
Vilnius has an orbital road.
London has an orbital road.
...
In most cities where these types of improvements succeed, alternative infrastructure has been implemented or there is reasonable alternative which acts as a 'release valve'.

Cork is rather unique in that it doesn't have either.

It may appear that I'm anti-cycle lane - I am not.
I am pro-cycling lane or anything which enhances the city.

The manner in which this project has been implemented means it will not act as an enhancement for the city, but as a set back for the city.



I would say 'drastic' rather than 'dramatic', but yes, I agree.

As an example, my journey to the gym from the outskirts of Cork used to take 20-25minutes.
The drastic changes to the layout had increased my commute time to nearly 50mins on a regular basis.

On a weekend I wouldn't mind, but on a weekday, I have neither the time nor the energy.

Drastic action forced a drastic reaction.

A take your point on lack of alternatives which is why congestion charging in Dublin is not currently a runner due to insufficient public transport capacity, however congestion charging is being considered after the new luas and DARTunderground are built. Similarly, I think that a radical improvement of bus and cycling facilities in Cork is needed and you have to start somewhere. I'm not familiar with this particular cycle lane so I feel unqualified to comment on it. The statements against it onthis thread seem to be hysterical in the extreme.

Dannyboy83

cgcsb wrote: »

I think that a radical improvement of bus and cycling facilities in Cork is needed and you have to start somewhere.

I don't dispute that; actually I don't think anyone in this thread disputes that.

The point is - the 'starting somewhere' cannot simply be some arbitrary point.

If you're building a house, first you need a foundation.
If you're retrofitting a cycling lane system, first you need to provide an alternative route i.e ring road

Removing traffic can be achieved by straightforward diversion or alternatively reduction. Diversion involves routing through-traffic away from roads used by high numbers of cyclists and pedestrians. Examples of diversion include the construction of arterial bypasses and ring roads around urban centres.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_infrastructure#Traffic_reduction

The crux is that travelling times within the city have doubled for many car users unnecessarily, therefore I cannot make sense of how they could be rationally dismissed as 'hysterical'.

blindsider

From Saturday's Examiner:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2014/0517/ireland/public-bike-scheme-widened-to-galway-cork-and-limerick-269000.html

The An Rothar Nua consortium has been awarded the contract for the provision of public bike schemes in the cities, with the total cost of the project in the region of €4.5m being provided by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.

The scheme will cost around €1.25m per year to operate.

The public bike schemes, to be known as ‘Coke Zero Bikes’, will be launched to the public this autumn.

Comprising 740 bikes in total, the scheme details are:

Cork — 320 bikes, 31 bike stations and 635 bike stands.

Galway — 205 bikes, 19 bike stations and 395 bike stands.

Limerick — 215 bikes, 23 bike stations and 445 bike stands.


Actually, if you scroll down this article, it lists the locations and capacities

http://irishcycle.com/2014/05/16/coke-zero-bikes-due-this-autumn/

daveohdave

Just what we need in Cork, more lycra-clad plonkers that've never read the rules of the road.

Max_Charger

daveohdave wrote: »

Just what we need in Cork, more lycra-clad plonkers that've never read the rules of the road.

I don't know any "lycra clad plonkers" who don't have cars and full drivers licences.

TheChizler

daveohdave wrote: »

Just what we need in Cork, more lycra-clad plonkers that've never read the rules of the road.

Personally I don't think many Lycra clad people will be using these bikes as they're being provided for the casual cyclist, anyone bothered to clad themselves in Lycra will have their own bikes.

Dave147

Lyaiera wrote: »

That's rubbish. You're far more aware of the dangers on the road when you're a cyclist. Especially cars who don't seem to think anything smaller than them is worth sharing the road with. And "cyclists who think they own the road?" Really? Cyclists are just as entitled to use the roads as any motorist.

They're not actually IMO. As a driver I had to pass tests to prove I was competent enough to be on the road. After seeing some cyclists going around without a care in the world I reckon they should be subject to similar testing.

daveohdave

I actually did a test in primary school, the playground was marked out for it and there was a supporting TV campaign for the initiative; the infamous "After 'im!" ad that most people of my generation will remember with glee, because it gave us licence to clock each other around the head with abandon.

Didn't get a licence but I may have been given a certificate or something. So I'm more qualified to use this ridiculous number of bike lanes than the aforementioned lycra-clad morons that can't even understand the basics of footpaths and red lights.

As someone has quite rightly pointed out, the lycra-clad idiots won't be the only ones using these, and to be fair commuter cyclists are generally better behaved (and infinitely more intelligent) but the renters are unlikely to be commuters, and the number of lanes is completely out of proportion with reality. They're also badly implemented, as cyclists themselves are quick to point out; and they won't be used after a month, again as cyclists will tell us. So a boat load of EU money spent for no good reason.

Don't even get me started on the boulevard footpaths.

Max_Charger

Dave147 wrote: »

They're not actually IMO. As a driver I had to pass tests to prove I was competent enough to be on the road. After seeing some cyclists going around without a care in the world I reckon they should be subject to similar testing.

Ya not a day goes by on the bike where I have to reverse around a corner, do a 3 point turn or find the biting point on the clutch to do a hill start.

evilivor

Dave147 wrote: »

After seeing some cyclists going around without a care in the world

That is the joy of cycling.

TINA1984

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't dispute that; actually I don't think anyone in this thread disputes that.

The point is - the 'starting somewhere' cannot simply be some arbitrary point.

If you're building a house, first you need a foundation.
If you're retrofitting a cycling lane system, first you need to provide an alternative route i.e ring road

The crux is that travelling times within the city have doubled for many car users unnecessarily, therefore I cannot make sense of how they could be rationally dismissed as 'hysterical'.

You keep on banging the drum on how the city needs an orbital/arterial route before cycle lanes can be built?

What do you think the N40 is? The N27? The North Ring Road?

Surely you're not suggesting an 'inner' orbital route be built around the City Centre?

jimgoose

TINA1984 wrote: »

You keep on banging the drum on how the city needs an orbital/arterial route before cycle lanes can be built?

What do you think the N40 is? The N27? The North Ring Road?

Surely you're not suggesting an 'inner' orbital route be built around the City Centre?

Well I personally think the North Ring is a fantastic way of getting from Blackpool to Glanmire via De Glen Biy, and furk-all else! :pac::pac::pac:

Flesh Gorden

TINA1984 wrote: »

What do you think the N40 is? The N27? The North Ring Road?

Pretty much a car park from 8-9am and from 2pm-6pm with mile long ques from both sides coming from Silversprings and going towards it from the Mayfield side,
and another one from the junction by Dunnes Ballyvolane all the way back towards the Fire Station.

A proper and well planned North Ring Road linking the M8, Blarney and Ballincollig before rejoining with the N27 would be one of the best things that could happen to the city.

The current one is one of the most clogged roads in the city which along with the new Dunkettle should be prioritized for available funding.

Red Nissan

TINA1984 wrote: »

Every time road space in the City Centre is given over to anything beside the mighty car, we hear the same predictable whining. We heard it when Bus Lanes were put in, we heard it....../QUOTE]

We also feel it in our pockets as business moves out of the city and shoppers throng to suburban locations.

Dannyboy83

TINA1984 wrote: »

You keep on banging the drum on how the city needs an orbital/arterial route before cycle lanes can be built?

The N22 has not been completed:
http://www.nra.ie/mapping/n22-cork-northern-ring-ro/index.xml

You might find this interesting:
http://www.corkindependent.com/20140313/news/the-missing-link-frozen-north-ring-would-bring-economic-boost-S81108.html


Regarding the N40:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N40_road_(Ireland)#cite_note-4
The N40 road (commonly known as the Cork South Ring Road) is a national primary road in Cork City, Ireland, which forms an orbital route around the south side of the city,


I can't lay claim to the idea of developing an orbital route of the city,
it was recommended by the same engineers in the same report who suggested the need for cycling lanes in Cork.

AugustusMinimus

Thread on the N40 Cork North Ring Road: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055557290&page=2

The long and the short of this project is that the section between the M20 and the M8 will most likely be bundled with the M20 Southern Section. Expect a start on it maybe in 4 to 5 years at an earliest.

The west section between the N22 and M20 is the more costly section IIRC requiring a number of bridges and will be done last. However, I expect that part of the west section will be done when the eastern section is being done so that the Hollyhill Industrial Estate will be linked to the NRR via a link road. I would imagine this would be of a big benefit to Apple.

The lack of a North Ring Road is absolutely stifling industrial, commercial and residential developments on the north side.

jabberwock

Is there anywhere I can see what the end result is meant to be for the cycle lane on Pope's Quay or anyone got some info on it.

It's pretty far advanced now but all I can see if the removal of so many parking spots. I had plans to get myself a car this summer but with that change I don't know where I could leave it anymore.

Red Nissan

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

What in the name of god are you talking about here?
If you live in Ballinlough you would shop in town, Douglas or Mahon, Blackpool and Carrigaline ïs non applicable.

I'll field a conundrum, I live in Mahon with that famous shopping centre as my backyard, for 12 years I used to go to Dunnes Stores in Bishopscourt for ease of access, speed of parking and minimum traffic congestion.

For the same reason one could [have] find me in Ryan's Super Valu in Glanmire ~ once one has spent two hours in Mahon Point traffic congestion, a few free moving miles are not the hardship that they may first seem.

Knasher

jabberwock wrote: »

Is there anywhere I can see what the end result is meant to be for the cycle lane on Pope's Quay or anyone got some info on it.

https://sites.google.com/site/cccdrawings/drawings-1

You can see all the plans for it there. Looks like it is going to be single lane with a two way cycle lane on the inside and parallel parking for most of it, apart from the church where the current parking will remain.