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Minder indoctrinating children
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That's fine, and if that is your ideology then by all means raise your children as you see fit. Personally, I think bringing a child to a shopping centre and teaching them that they don't need to buy everything they see is a valuable lesson too, but we're not talking about shopping centres. We're talking about religion, and it is solely a parents prerogative to teach religion or raise their child with or without faith. If the childminder had brought the child to mass once or twice as part of a varied day-to-day structure, then yes, have a chat about it and that should be the end of the matter, but she didn't. She brought the children to mass daily, and then continued to reinforce religious ideology at home by reading bible stories. That is way, way over the line, IMO, and not harmless or just something she does to pass the time. It is religious instruction, and the fact that the OP's children are now asking about god is proof of that. Would you be really okay if I were to bring your children to a mosque everyday and then read passages from the Koran to them and keep it secret from you? I doubt it.
My children have been to mosques. we have quran in the house, plus a children's illustrated quran, which we read. I am a big fan of understanding how people tick, which includes their cultural background. I will give them an understanding of as many belief systems as I can, so that they can see the similarities and differences in ethics.
On reading bible stories. For a start, I don't ever think banning any kind of reading material is ever a good idea. Reading is fantastic for children! And secondly, there are so many popular references to religious stories, especially in Ireland, you're never going to be able to strip this out of a childs life. Even inocuous phrases like "that went out with the flood". A vast amount of our native literature is laced with it. Anything by joyce for example. Are you going to ban them from reading ulysses in later life? How about seeing films like Raiders of the Lost Ark? Of course not, it would be impossible... This influence will certainly come into their lives whatever you do. Even participating in christmas and easter is part of it.
I don't think this woman was deliberately being secretive or deceptive, afterall, they do KNOW the children are being taken to mass, so it must have come up somehow.
The big difference between a childminder and a creche is that your child fits into the minder's home and their daily life... And often takes part in their family when they have other children. If you take issue with how that family functions (by being of a particular religion) then it may not be the childminder for you.0 -
People are assuming that the childminder deliberately and deceptively brings the children to mass. She may see nothing wrong with it and may not think that something she has done for her whole life would cause outrage amongst others.
It may not have come up in conversation the same way as she may not have told them "We went to the post office today". There is very little detail in the opening post, but from that people are concluding that she is a fanatic, forcing religion on the kids and warning them to keep it secret.
All that is needed here, and the first thing that the OP should have thought of before posting here was bringing it up with the childminder.
All too often people bull in with "sack her", "I'd be livid", "How dare she" etc, but if she doesn't know any better, then she's not deliberately doing anything wrong. And a civil chat between 2 (3) adults should be enough to sort it out.
Nowadays religion in Ireland is very different. Nowadays religion is a personal thing and a personal choice. Not so long ago it wasn't a personal choice.. it was the norm. If the lady is coming from a place where religion is just what everyone does, then she needs to be told that that's not the way things are anymore. If she hasn't been told, then she won't even consider it.
As has been said many many many times on the thread... Talk to the woman!0 -
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Very dangerous. What's the difference between indoctrinating them with Catholic teachings and indoctrinating them with Satanic blood sacrifice rituals? How about if the religion in question was one where polygamy was acceptable. The only reason Catholicism seems different is because it's the culturally acceptable religion in this country.
However, comparisons to other nonsensical cults aside, id be just as angry if my child was being told as fact that the Tooth Fairy created the universe. The truth is, religious indoctrination teaches children not to ask questions and to blindly accept dogma. That's not setting up a healthy inquiring mind for future progress in my opinion.
It's a serious breach of boundaries, as would the childminder secretly bringing the children to anything that you would view as morally wrong. If you found out they were attending cock fighting or being taught how to shoplift you'd have no hesitation in firing the childminder. Bit extreme? Well so is religion.0 -
My children have been to mosques. we have quran in the house, plus a children's illustrated quran, which we read. I am a big fan of understanding how people tick, which includes their cultural background. I will give them an understanding of as many belief systems as I can, so that they can see the similarities and differences in ethics.
On reading bible stories. For a start, I don't ever think banning any kind of reading material is ever a good idea. Reading is fantastic for children! And secondly, there are so many popular references to religious stories, especially in Ireland, you're never going to be able to strip this out of a childs life. Even inocuous phrases like "that went out with the flood". A vast amount of our native literature is laced with it. Anything by joyce for example. Are you going to ban them from reading ulysses in later life? How about seeing films like Raiders of the Lost Ark? Of course not, it would be impossible... This influence will certainly come into their lives whatever you do. Even participating in christmas and easter is part of it.
I don't think this woman was deliberately being secretive or deceptive, afterall, they do KNOW the children are being taken to mass, so it must have come up somehow.
The big difference between a childminder and a creche is that your child fits into the minder's home and their daily life... And often takes part in their family when they have other children. If you take issue with how that family functions (by being of a particular religion) then it may not be the childminder for you.
Okay then, to use your example of plasticky consumerism - if I were to bring your child to a shopping centre everyday, to expose them to credit card culture, if I were to teach them that money is king and if you don't have X product and a big car and a big house, then you're worthless, if you are really lucky you'll marry money and then you'll be someone....I assume you wouldn't be okay with that?! You are entitled to expose your children to whatever religious or cultural influences you wish - they are your children. Your childminder is paid to care for them. It is not their place to decide what religious instruction they are subject to.
The OP said theat his wife 'discovered' that the children were being brought to mass, and that they are on holiday ATM; from that, my understanding is that it is only recently that they found this out and they are trying to decide how to proceed. While I do agree to a point that children being minded in a childminders house fit into their family life, it is only to a point. Day to day interactions, yes. Deciding on religious instruction without the consent/knowledge of the parents - totally different, and not right. And yes, a child will most likely come across religious references from day to day, but teaching it and practicing it is vastly different to the odd mention. As I mentioned before, I would have no problem sending my child to a childminder who has a faith, and if they wished to practice said faith then I would do my best to accommodate it, but I would not be okay with a childminder repeatedly exposing my son to something I don't want him exposed to.0 -
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annoyedannoyed wrote: »We have two kids who are minded full time.
My wife found out the minder has been bringing them to mass from a neighbour who saw them there.
The minder has also been reading religious stories like Noah and Christmas nativity books.
She doesn't see the harm. And says she goes to mass every day and other parents have never had a problem with this.
We are atheist, and don't want our kids exposed to this crap. The older one has been talking about holy God and whatnot, this should have been a clue.
The problem is the children are very happy there and it is very convenient arrangement in all other respects.
What can we do to stop the minder bringing the children to mass. We are on holidays at the moment and have no family to help out, creches are too expensive.
Hi Op
So you have obviously talked to her about it, because you say she sees not harm in going to Mass every day and also says that other parents have no problem with it.
If the kids are happy and it is convenient then you could let it slide, anything they learn from her they will have long forgotten by the time they are halfway through the non religious school you will be sending them to.0 -
Big Bag of Chips wrote: »People are assuming that the childminder deliberately and deceptively brings the children to mass. She may see nothing wrong with it and may not think that something she has done for her whole life would cause outrage amongst others.
It may not have come up in conversation the same way as she may not have told them "We went to the post office today". There is very little detail in the opening post, but from that people are concluding that she is a fanatic, forcing religion on the kids and warning them to keep it secret.
All that is needed here, and the first thing that the OP should have thought of before posting here was bringing it up with the childminder.
All too often people bull in with "sack her", "I'd be livid", "How dare she" etc, but if she doesn't know any better, then she's not deliberately doing anything wrong. And a civil chat between 2 (3) adults should be enough to sort it out.
Nowadays religion in Ireland is very different. Nowadays religion is a personal thing and a personal choice. Not so long ago it wasn't a personal choice.. it was the norm. If the lady is coming from a place where religion is just what everyone does, then she needs to be told that that's not the way things are anymore. If she hasn't been told, then she won't even consider it.
As has been said many many many times on the thread... Talk to the woman!
The OP stated that the childminder "doesn't see the harm" and that she has told the OP that she goes to mass everyday, and the other parents are okay with it - I would imagine this means that the OP has already asked her about it, and the response was the above. I'm not a fan of all-guns-blazing; if it were me I would politely and civilly talk to the childminder and request that it doesn't happen again, (even though I would be angry about it happening and angry that I was left with the task of undoing said indoctrination) however, if the response was "sure what's the harm" etc, and continued to do it, then yes, I would be livid and the childminder would be getting the sack.0 -
Which makes it worse as she is indoctrinated and is unlikely to want to or be able to change her routine.Big Bag of Chips wrote: »I wouldn't be going in all guns blazing though! No need to mention the word "crap" or doing your nut. This is something the minder is doing that you would prefer she didn't do.
Lots of people of a certain age (Im guessing she's of the older generation?) still go to mass every morning. And its the same as going to the shop for them. They don't see it as anything out of the ordinary.
I would tell the childminder that her services are no longer required and only tell her why if she asked. Any instruction on her not going to Mass or not giving any religious instruction could possibly lead to a change in how she deals with the child and is not something a parent should be comfortable with.So, like a mature adult, you should maturely talk to the minder and tell her you would prefer that she not bring your children to mass.
Between you, you then decide what happens next. She either stops going to mass every morning in order to stay on as your minder, or she decides she must/has to/wants to go to mass every morning and then you find a different minder.
No need for a "guns blazing" attitude to this at all!
This woman's religion is her own business to be practised on her own time, not while any parent is paying her to mind their children. Is anyone in this thread paid by their employer for going to Mass/Temple etc for an hour a day?Big Bag of Chips wrote: »Bringing your child to mass every morning, or not, is not something you as a parent would think you'd have to bring up at the interview stage.
She has no right to bring the child anywhere without the permission of the parents. Most people will not consider daily mass as a part of the normal routine and would certainly not tolerate it while a person is paid to be doing something else.Same way as the woman who has always gone to mass every morning would think there's nothing wrong with bringing the kids too.
All that is needed here is a bit of clarification from both sides.
She sees no harm and is unlikely to want to stop or change her routine in any way.Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »Hi Op
So you have obviously talked to her about it, because you say she sees not harm in going to Mass every day and also says that other parents have no problem with it.
If the kids are happy and it is convenient then you could let it slide, anything they learn from her they will have long forgotten by the time they are halfway through the non religious school you will be sending them to.
At the end of the day this woman is unlikely to want to or even be able to change the routine she has most likely had since she was a young girl. The only sensible option is to replace her.0 -
The OP stated that the childminder "doesn't see the harm" and that she has told the OP that she goes to mass everyday, and the other parents are okay with it - I would imagine this means that the OP has already asked her about it, and the response was the above. I'm not a fan of all-guns-blazing; if it were me I would politely and civilly talk to the childminder and request that it doesn't happen again(even though I would be angry about it happening and angry that I was left with the task of undoing said indoctrination)[\b] however, if the response was "sure what's the harm" etc, and continued to do it, then yes, I would be livid and the childminder would be getting the sack.
Go easy on the exaggerating there, as I said it will be all forgotten about after a few years in school.
On the face of it letting her go would be sensible, but changing childminders is not as easy as replacing a checkout worker in a supermarket, you cannot just sack them on the spot as so here are suggesting.
You have to consider the child's happiness and routine, your own routine and the costs0 -
Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »Go easy on the exaggerating there, as I said it will be all forgotten about after a few years in school.
On the face of it letting her go would be sensible, but changing childminders is not as easy as replacing a checkout worker in a supermarket, you cannot just sack them on the spot as so here are suggesting.
You have to consider the child's happiness and routine, your own routine and the costs
How do you know that?
I had religious instruction once a week for an hour and I still remember the Ten Commandments, the story of the golden cow and Moses and the fire appearing on the mountain, the concepts of sin and worship, and the notion of evil as taught in the story of Adam and Eve. And that animals don't go to heaven because they don't have souls.
Nothing has been forgotten and I was not made to go to mass every day. This was religion light.0 -
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Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »Go easy on the exaggerating there, as I said it will be all forgotten about after a few years in school.
Not if it is being thought in the time-honoured catholic manner of repeating the Mass/Lesson until it is known off by heart. Children learn most from their daily (repetitive) routine.0 -
How do you know that?
I had religious instruction once a week for an hour and I still remember the Ten Commandments, the story of the golden cow and Moses and the fire appearing on the mountain, the concepts of sin and worship, and the notion of evil as taught in the story of Adam and Eve. And that animals don't go to heaven because they don't have souls.
Nothing has been forgotten and I was not made to go to mass every day. This was religion light.
But has the above knowledge adversely affected you in your development as a person, somehow I doubt it.
People go a bit OTT about the consequences of learning about a religion.0 -
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Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »But has the above knowledge adversely affected you in your development as a person, somehow I doubt it.
People go a bit OTT about the consequences of learning about a religion.
That is not the point. The parents are paying her. She can practise her religion on her own time and not inflict it on THEIR kids.0 -
How do you know that?
I had religious instruction once a week for an hour and I still remember the Ten Commandments, the story of the golden cow and Moses and the fire appearing on the mountain, the concepts of sin and worship, and the notion of evil as taught in the story of Adam and Eve. And that animals don't go to heaven because they don't have souls.
Nothing has been forgotten and I was not made to go to mass every day. This was religion light.
you remember that from pre school? Impressive.
Any way the issue is really the childminder should ask permission what trips are ok. And if religious stories are ok. Because its not usual.0 -
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That is not the point. The parents are paying her. She can practise her religion on her own time and not inflict it on THEIR kids.
This is the issue I have with it. If I'm paying someone to mind my child I want to know where they go and what they do. I wouldn't be happy thinking my minder was doing her daily routine with kids in tow rather than actually minding them and doing things with them.
I think it does all come down to who the minder is, if its a friend or family member its a bit different to a registered childminder. Either way you need to trust the person who is taking care of your kids and if you can't I'd be really thinking if they are the right person for the job.0 -
Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »Inflict eh ?
Again a bit exaggerated
Next she will sacrifice them to our lord0 -
Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »Go easy on the exaggerating there, as I said it will be all forgotten about after a few years in school.
On the face of it letting her go would be sensible, but changing childminders is not as easy as replacing a checkout worker in a supermarket, you cannot just sack them on the spot as so here are suggesting.
You have to consider the child's happiness and routine, your own routine and the costs
I don't see it as exaggerating. I remember all of the religious instruction I received as a child, mostly at the hands of my gran and great aunt. And yes, I know you can't just replace a childminder in a jiffy, but IMO, something as important as this warrants it.Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »But has the above knowledge adversely affected you in your development as a person, somehow I doubt it.
People go a bit OTT about the consequences of learning about a religion.
Yes, actually, I believe it has had a big (negative) impact on my development, hence the reason I am an atheist.Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »Inflict eh ?
Again a bit exaggerated
Yes, inflict. If the parents do not want the child exposed to something, and they are exposed to it regardless, then it is inflicted.
You may believe that religion and doctrine is harmless, I disagree in the strongest possible terms. If my child was being exposed to it against my wishes by someone I'm paying to mind him, I think it's perfectly reasonable of me to want that situation to stop. If my childminder had (for example) racist views and was exposing my child to said views, it'd be a no-brainier - get rid, ASAP. I view this the same way.0 -
Okay then, to use your example of plasticky consumerism - if I were to bring your child to a shopping centre everyday, to expose them to credit card culture, if I were to teach them that money is king and if you don't have X product and a big car and a big house, then you're worthless, if you are really lucky you'll marry money and then you'll be someone....I assume you wouldn't be okay with that
No, i wouldn't be ok with that. I'd talk to the childminder, and if I wasn't happy with what they did day to day, I'd get another one. Same as what I said the OP should do if they are not happy with what is happening day to day.
Or, maybe as you said yourself, I'd teach them otherwise.Personally, I think bringing a child to a shopping centre and teaching them that they don't need to buy everything they see is a valuable lesson too0 -
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MagicMarker wrote: »Just.... wow.
Preferring religious indoctrination to shopping in Tesco, an interesting perspective.
I know, culture, music and art is so uncouth compared to the rich hallowed grounds of Tesco.
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I see a different issue here: Do you actually talk to your children? As in 'hey kids. Did you have a nice day today? What did you do? Where did you go? etc' You learned from a neighbour what your kids do and where they go?
Besides, I think any indoctrination of children is wrong - be it religious, satanic, atheist or any combination thereof. Let them find out for themselves which path to chose when they're old enough.0 -
annoyedannoyed wrote: »We have two kids who are minded full time.
My wife found out the minder has been bringing them to mass from a neighbour who saw them there.
The minder has also been reading religious stories like Noah and Christmas nativity books.
She doesn't see the harm. And says she goes to mass every day and other parents have never had a problem with this.
We are atheist, and don't want our kids exposed to this crap. The older one has been talking about holy God and whatnot, this should have been a clue.
The problem is the children are very happy there and it is very convenient arrangement in all other respects.
What can we do to stop the minder bringing the children to mass. We are on holidays at the moment and have no family to help out, creches are too expensive.
The very fact that you describe other peoples deeply held beliefs as "crap" sums it up for me. You are perfectly happy to use this person for minding your children but obviously you did not do your research properly or gave any limitations as to her activity.0 -
I don't see it as exaggerating. I remember all of the religious instruction I received as a child, mostly at the hands of my gran and great aunt. And yes, I know you can't just replace a childminder in a jiffy, but IMO, something as important as this warrants it.
Yes, actually, I believe it has had a big (negative) impact on my development, hence the reason I am an atheist.
Yes, inflict. If the parents do not want the child exposed to something, and they are exposed to it regardless, then it is inflicted.
You may believe that religion and doctrine is harmless, I disagree in the strongest possible terms. If my child was being exposed to it against my wishes by someone I'm paying to mind him, I think it's perfectly reasonable of me to want that situation to stop. If my childminder had (for example) racist views and was exposing my child to said views, it'd be a no-brainier - get rid, ASAP. I view this the same way.
I am not suggesting that the parents take no action here, but I am pointing out to those who suggest that she be fired on the spot, that it is not a realistic option when it comes to childcare
And I also believe that there is a certain amount of over exaggerating by atheists when it comes to children being exposed to children's literature etc that has a basis in religion.
Your child will not be scarred for life based on a story a child minder told them when they were under 50 -
Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »O am not suggesting that the parents take no action here, but I am pointing out to those who suggest that she be fired on the spot, that it is not a realistic option when it comes to childcare
And I also believe that there is a certain amount of over exaggerating by atheists when it comes to children being exposed to children's literature etc that has a basis in religion.
Your child will not be scarred for life based on something a child minder did with them when they were under 5
Scarred for life is your baseline?0 -
Scarred for life is your baseline?
I'm not sure what you mean ?
My point is that I believe that atheists tend to overreact to the presence of something with a basis, no matter now small it is, in religion.
The imagery here of the child having to be "un indoctrinated" by the parents after the religion being "inflicted" on them while at the childminders, which he enjoys going to, is just hilarious.0 -
Simply mind your own children in your own home.0
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annoyedannoyed wrote: »We have two kids who are minded full time.
My wife found out the minder has been bringing them to mass from a neighbour who saw them there.
The minder has also been reading religious stories like Noah and Christmas nativity books.
She doesn't see the harm. And says she goes to mass every day and other parents have never had a problem with this.
We are atheist, and don't want our kids exposed to this crap. The older one has been talking about holy God and whatnot, this should have been a clue.
The problem is the children are very happy there and it is very convenient arrangement in all other respects.
What can we do to stop the minder bringing the children to mass. We are on holidays at the moment and have no family to help out, creches are too expensive.
Atheism isn't a religion. It's really based on the principle that people have looked at the facts and have decided that religion isn't for them. I don't really see what benefit "shielding" children from religion can have - rather the opposite. If atheism is born from existentialist understanding, then surely "belief" is born of the converse.
Now, this distinction would probably be lost on your children: but the argument that this is something that other people believe (and that you do not) should easily hit home. And, at the end of the day, the stories in themselves can't hurt.
Having said that, heavy handed indoctrination is no good thing, for exactly the same reason - but I don't see any inherit reason that the minder's belief system be incompatible with yours, provided that it is qualified, and toned down a bit.0 -
You basically have to discuss this with her rationally and if she's unwilling to accommodate you, then you need to find another childminder.
Simple as that really.
I know I had plenty of childminders as a kid myself and they had a huge (and mostly positive) influence on me and I certainly don't remember any of them being ultra-religious. We mostly just went for walks, played with her kids, did homework, had dinner, watched TV. I mostly just remember playing football and learning about computer science from one of her kids who was that unusual combination of 'cool' and also a computer geek.
I may have been sightly indoctrinated by her Home and Away based religious beliefs though and have a strange desire to visit Summer Bay. Other than that, I turned out fine.
I think you need to ensure your kids are in an environment that you're comfortable with and it's quite clear that you are not one bit comfortable about this so, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to just seek out a new childminder.0 -
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I see a different issue here: Do you actually talk to your children? As in 'hey kids. Did you have a nice day today? What did you do? Where did you go? etc' You learned from a neighbour what your kids do and where they go?
This did occur to me to ... that's why I'm wondering if she specifically asked the children not to tell their parents that they were going there. Which is extremely worrying to me.Besides, I think any indoctrination of children is wrong - be it religious, satanic, atheist or any combination thereof. Let them find out for themselves which path to chose when they're old enough.
How can you indoctrinate a child to atheism?! Atheism is simply a lack of belief!marieholmfan wrote: »Simply mind your own children in your own home.
Yes, because it's always that simple. :rolleyes:0
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