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Minder indoctrinating children

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    #62
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    We had a situation with a neighbour in the 1980s where she actually took my friends (who were atheist) to a convent one afternoon while minding them and tried to have them baptised. The nuns actually called the parents and were very understanding of the situation!

    Let's just say she didn't really get any unsupervised access to them ever again.

    This was in Dublin in the 1980s.

    Ireland most definitely has its fanatics.


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    #63
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    simplybam wrote: »
    I see a different issue here: Do you actually talk to your children? As in 'hey kids. Did you have a nice day today? What did you do? Where did you go? etc' You learned from a neighbour what your kids do and where they go?

    Besides, I think any indoctrination of children is wrong - be it religious, satanic, atheist or any combination thereof. Let them find out for themselves which path to chose when they're old enough.

    I don't know about anyone else. ..but my kids wouldn't be able to give me a full run down of their day. That's why the creche give us a daily diary. Very strange that the childminder never mentioned it though. Perhaps she knows its wrong


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    #64
    Lisha
    Registered Users Posts: 8,693 ✭✭✭Lisha


    When a childminder is minding your children in her own home then your children are involved in her daily routine.

    If her daily routine does not suit you, you need to find an alternative minder for your children. Or maybe consider if the pros out weigh the cons.

    If your children are happy, safe and secure with a person you trust then is this issue worth losing your minder over?

    Her missing mass might be a deal breaker for her. On this thread people have spoken about the minder taking the children to mass. But maybe the minder is going to mass and as the children are with her they tag along.

    You need to have a conversation with the minder. If she does not wish to miss mass you must arrange for someone to mind then for that duration. Or else you need a new minder.

    You could also explain to minder that your family are non believers and that she must respect this.
    You can also explain to your children that we don't follow such beliefs.

    For me my children's happiness and safety would come first. So you need to figure out what works best for you all in this situation. In time the children will be at school and playschool minder will be free then in the mornings to do as she pleases.


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    #65
    How Strange
    Registered Users Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭How Strange


    I agree with Hannibal Smith. I ask my 3 year old everyday what they do in crèche. It usually goes like this, 'what did you do today?' 'Nothing' 'did you play in the garden?' 'Yes' 'anything else' 'no'.

    I find it very strange that the minder never mentioned it though. My mam minds kids and some days she brings them for a walk with her friends and I've heard her telling the mum about it in a very casual way and what the kids did.


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    #66
    Chattastrophe!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭Chattastrophe!


    How Strange wrote: »
    I agree with Hannibal Smith. I ask my 3 year old everyday what they do in crèche. It usually goes like this, 'what did you do today?' 'Nothing' 'did you play in the garden?' 'Yes' 'anything else' 'no'.

    If my child mentioned a "holy god" in conversation, as this child did, I would be extremely interested in finding out where they'd heard such a notion, and would be asking both the child and the minder questions about where they might have picked that up!


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    #67
    How Strange
    Registered Users Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭How Strange


    Yes, I agree. I'd be asking very probing questions to find out how they know about holy god.


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    #68
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    annoyedannoyed wrote: »
    We have two kids who are minded full time.
    My wife found out the minder has been bringing them to mass from a neighbour who saw them there.
    The minder has also been reading religious stories like Noah and Christmas nativity books.
    She doesn't see the harm. And says she goes to mass every day and other parents have never had a problem with this.
    We are atheist, and don't want our kids exposed to this crap. The older one has been talking about holy God and whatnot, this should have been a clue.
    The problem is the children are very happy there and it is very convenient arrangement in all other respects.
    What can we do to stop the minder bringing the children to mass. We are on holidays at the moment and have no family to help out, creches are too expensive.

    No one should be taking other people's children to Mass or teaching them anything without checking with the parents.

    It does sound she made an assumption that as all the other parents were ok with it / Catholic, it would be ok for your children, this was her mistake not yours.

    I woudn't be biting the head off her, but I would have a talk with her and let her know how you wish your children to be brought up. In every other respect she seems like a good child minder, (a most excellent one from a Catholic parents point of view) but if she's not willing to stop taking them to mass and teaching them religion you don't want them taught, then you need a new childminder. Sounds like any Catholic parent would be lucky to have her though.


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    #69
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I don't really see what benefit "shielding" children from religion can have - rather the opposite.

    Where did the OP say they wanted their children shielded from all knowledge of religion. There is a bloody massive difference between indoctrination and education, in fact they are just about polar opposites. What this childminder is doing is the former and that is what the OP doesn't want.


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    #70
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I think the issue here is that you have to think of it in another way if you're actually a Catholic or other mainstream religion member:

    Think about how you'd feel if the childminder were bringing your kids to services / ceremonies a religion different to your own.

    Let's say Islam, Buddhism, Christian Science, Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses or something totally different like say Wiccan ceremonies etc.

    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of those religions or belief systems and it's certainly interesting that people should be aware of what they're about, but that's very different from actually participating in them as a child.

    I doubt your average devout Roman Catholic or Church of Ireland (Anglian Episcopalian) would be too comfortable with the idea of their kid being basically brought up in one of those other faith groups.

    For an atheist family, bringing the kids off to mass every day is not any different. What the OP's talking about isn't really an open cultural exchange between two families, it's indoctrination. That's a very different thing.

    Just because a particular religion is 'main stream' in Ireland doesn't mean that it's something that a parent should have to just accept that their kid is going to be indoctrinated in.


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    #71
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I think the issue here is that you have to think of it in another way if you're actually a Catholic or other mainstream religion member:

    Think about how you'd feel if the childminder were bringing your kids to services / ceremonies a religion different to your own.

    Let's say Islam, Buddhism, Christian Science, Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses or something totally different like say Wiccan ceremonies etc.

    I'm RC and have already said a couple of times on this thread we encourage other religious services, and go to them when we can as well as our own.

    Why do people continue to assume this intolerance where there is none? The complete opposite is true for my family.

    We have friends or family of all the faiths above (except scientology) and several more besides, and we participate where we can, so that our children have as rounded an exposure to all faiths as possible. I think people who don't do this are possibly missing out, as we find it really interesting. Good for the mind, and a great way to get to know other communities and your neighbours. It's even good for business contacts. Can't see the downside of participation at all.

    My children may end up as athiests or even convert to another religion when they are older, but if so, I really hope they won't be afraid to let their own children set foot in any place of worship in case they get infected or 'indoctrinated'. I just don't think it works like that. I hopethat being inclusive of religions and seeing them being practiced now will lead to the children being more tolerant adults. And I also hope it creates a wide enough range of experience, so they are not susceptible to scaremongering like "muslims eat babies" or similar.


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    #72
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    pwurple wrote: »
    I'm RC and have already said a couple of times on this thread we encourage other religious services, and go to them when we can as well as our own.

    Why do people continue to assume this intolerance where there is none? The complete opposite is true for my family.

    We have friends or family of all the faiths above (except scientology) and several more besides, and we participate where we can, so that our children have as rounded an exposure to all faiths as possible. I think people who don't do this are possibly missing out, as we find it really interesting. Good for the mind, and a great way to get to know other communities and your neighbours. It's even good for business contacts. Can't see the downside of participation at all.

    My children may end up as athiests or even convert to another religion when they are older, but if so, I really hope they won't be afraid to let their own children set foot in any place of worship in case they get infected or 'indoctrinated'. I just don't think it works like that. I hopethat being inclusive of religions and seeing them being practiced now will lead to the children being more tolerant adults. And I also hope it creates a wide enough range of experience, so they are not susceptible to scaremongering like "muslims eat babies" or similar.

    Do you think a devout catholic bringing children to a catholic mass every day while telling the children catholic stories is being "inclusive of religions"? Or do you think it's indoctrination?


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    #73
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,038 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    People are offering explanations as to why she might be bringing them to mass. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the woman should bring them to mass, or that the OP shouldn't be annoyed/upset about it.

    But as with all other examples given above.. if your childminder is doing anything that you are not happy with, then the first thing to do is discuss it.


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    #74
    zindicato
    Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭zindicato


    im an atheist myself and if our minder brings my kids to mass I wouldnt mind at all , I would rather let them be out and about being active walking to church and maybe afterwards going to the park than siting at home all day watching telly, being feed junk food and sweets so that they are preoccupied while the minder is on her phone and computer as long as the kids are safe and the minders attention is on them thats what counts to me.


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    #75
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    pwurple wrote: »
    I'm RC and have already said a couple of times on this thread we encourage other religious services, and go to them when we can as well as our own.

    Why do people continue to assume this intolerance where there is none? The complete opposite is true for my family.

    We have friends or family of all the faiths above (except scientology) and several more besides, and we participate where we can, so that our children have as rounded an exposure to all faiths as possible. I think people who don't do this are possibly missing out, as we find it really interesting. Good for the mind, and a great way to get to know other communities and your neighbours. It's even good for business contacts. Can't see the downside of participation at all.

    My children may end up as athiests or even convert to another religion when they are older, but if so, I really hope they won't be afraid to let their own children set foot in any place of worship in case they get infected or 'indoctrinated'. I just don't think it works like that. I hopethat being inclusive of religions and seeing them being practiced now will lead to the children being more tolerant adults. And I also hope it creates a wide enough range of experience, so they are not susceptible to scaremongering like "muslims eat babies" or similar.

    You don't have to indulge in other faith...or any faith. ..to broaden your child's horizons.


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    #76
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    For me, the problem with children being exposed to any sort of religion, is that it is presented as fact. Children have evolved to believe what adults tell them - don't eat those berries, keep away from fast running waters, etc. The genes that heeded this advice generally survived, while the genes that didn't died out. This makes children very susceptible to believing what is presented to them as fact by adults - Santa Claus, Easter bunny, burning in hell etc. As you can probably guess, I'm an atheist, but I was raised a Catholic and it took a long time for me to be able to overcome what was presented to me as "fact" when I was a child.

    A childminder, or teacher for that matter, has a huge influence on children. Their morals and beliefs will filter down to our children and become engrained in their psyche. The posters who seem to be of the opinion of "a little bit of religion is fine", should really try to imagine how they would feel if their childminder was bringing their children to Scientology ceremonies (as other posters have mentioned). Would they be happy with that? Or, to remove Religion from the equation -would you be happy if your childminder thought it was ok to buy stolen goods and exposed your children to these morals? The children will pick up on this and these beliefs will invariably form part of their belief system - because children are very susceptible.

    We really have to be very careful about who we allow to influence our children - because children will believe whatever they are told. The OP is concerned that the childminder is passing on information to their children which is presented as fact, that they do not agree with and that is a situation that can not continue.


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    #77
    vitani
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭vitani


    bajer101 wrote: »
    For me, the problem with children being exposed to any sort of religion, is that it is presented as fact. Children have evolved to believe what adults tell them - don't eat those berries, keep away from fast running waters, etc. The genes that heeded this advice generally survived, while the genes that didn't died out. This makes children very susceptible to believing what is presented to them as fact by adults - Santa Claus, Easter bunny, burning in hell etc. As you can probably guess, I'm an atheist, but I was raised a Catholic and it took a long time for me to be able to overcome what was presented to me as "fact" when I was a child.

    A childminder, or teacher for that matter, has a huge influence on children. Their morals and beliefs will filter down to our children and become engrained in their psyche. The posters who seem to be of the opinion of "a little bit of religion is fine", should really try to imagine how they would feel if their childminder was bringing their children to Scientology ceremonies (as other posters have mentioned). Would they be happy with that? Or, to remove Religion from the equation -would you be happy if your childminder thought it was ok to buy stolen goods and exposed your children to these morals? The children will pick up on this and these beliefs will invariably form part of their belief system - because children are very susceptible.

    We really have to be very careful about who we allow to influence our children - because children will believe whatever they are told. The OP is concerned that the childminder is passing on information to their children which is presented as fact, that they do not agree with and that is a situation that can not continue.

    That's an interesting point. I firmly believed in God up until the age of about 12 - actually the timing probably corresponds with leaving primary school. By the time I was 14, I was still going to Mass every week but no longer believed. I spent a lot of time worrying over my lack of belief - over the space of a year or two, everything I'd grown up accepting as true, I was now starting to doubt. I didn't have anyone I could talk to about it either. Added to all the other teenage hormones and the fact that I'm an overthinker at the best of times, it was a pretty stressful couple of years and something I'm actually a little annoyed about now.


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    #78
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Do you think a devout catholic bringing children to a catholic mass every day while telling the children catholic stories is being "inclusive of religions"? Or do you think it's indoctrination?

    Indoctrination is teaching someone to be uncritical, or to disregard the beliefs of others.

    Reading someone stories, or going to mass is not doing that. Even by having parents of a different faith, or none at all, is showing the child that there are multiple religions. And it will of course bring up critical thinking, as I assume the parents have spoken to the child about what they believe, and what they believe god means to others. All in all, the result of the experience for the children is the complete opposite of indoctrination.


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    #79
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    pwurple wrote: »
    I'm RC and have already said a couple of times on this thread we encourage other religious services, and go to them when we can as well as our own.

    Why do people continue to assume this intolerance where there is none? The complete opposite is true for my family.

    We have friends or family of all the faiths above (except scientology) and several more besides, and we participate where we can, so that our children have as rounded an exposure to all faiths as possible. I think people who don't do this are possibly missing out, as we find it really interesting. Good for the mind, and a great way to get to know other communities and your neighbours. It's even good for business contacts. Can't see the downside of participation at all.

    My children may end up as athiests or even convert to another religion when they are older, but if so, I really hope they won't be afraid to let their own children set foot in any place of worship in case they get infected or 'indoctrinated'. I just don't think it works like that. I hopethat being inclusive of religions and seeing them being practiced now will lead to the children being more tolerant adults. And I also hope it creates a wide enough range of experience, so they are not susceptible to scaremongering like "muslims eat babies" or similar.

    I actually wasn't addressing my reply to you. So, please don't take it as a personal response to your post.

    There's a big difference between being 'tolerant' and being dragged off to mass every day. That's not quite the same thing.


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    #80
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    pwurple wrote: »
    Indoctrination is teaching someone to be uncritical, or to disregard the beliefs of others.

    Reading someone stories, or going to mass is not doing that. Even by having parents of a different faith, or none at all, is showing the child that there are multiple religions. And it will of course bring up critical thinking, as I assume the parents have spoken to the child about what they believe, and what they believe god means to others. All in all, the result of the experience for the children is the complete opposite of indoctrination.
    How is bringing a child to a catholic mass daily while ignoring all other faiths NOT teaching them to be uncritical? Does a priest start mass with "Now, this is only my opinion but......". Of course not, the entire point of a mass is to preach, to sermonize. You have no idea what the parents have discussed with the children, they may not have discussed religion at all, depending on their ages, meaning the sole religious input these children have had is from their catholic minder and a catholic priest.

    There is absolutely no way that that cannot be construed as a form of indoctrination.


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    #81
    moc moc a moc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭moc moc a moc


    Chattastrophe! wrote: »
    If my child mentioned a "holy god" in conversation, as this child did, I would be extremely interested in finding out where they'd heard such a notion, and would be asking both the child and the minder questions about where they might have picked that up!

    Maybe Glenroe was on the telly?


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    #82
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    moc moc a moc wrote: »
    Maybe Glenroe was on the telly?

    Clearly has a large collection of old 1980s VHS tapes!


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    #83
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,246 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Have any of those here who think the children are being 'indoctrinated', or are having Catholicism 'inflicted' on them by going to mass, actually been to a church service (of any religion) with a preschooler ?

    The kids are far more interested in playing in the seats and looking at the lights, than listening to what the priest had to say, let alone understanding any of it.

    As I said before then will spend long enough in their non religious school to forget all about what they did with the childminder.


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    #84
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    If I was a person of faith, I would much rather have my kids be minded or taught by an atheist than by someone of a different faith. In my experience, atheists seem to be the only people who go out of their way to not try and pass on their philosophy to children.


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    #85
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    Have any of those here who think the children are being 'indoctrinated', or are having Catholicism 'inflicted' on them by going to mass, actually been to a church service (of any religion) with a preschooler ?

    The kids are far more interested in playing in the seats and looking at the lights, than listening to what the priest had to say, let alone understanding any of it.

    As I said before then will spend long enough in their non religious school to forget all about what they did with the childminder.

    You're seriously underestimating what kids take in!

    They're extremely literal at that age and do not really understand metaphor (this is development psychological fact, not just my opinion.)

    Kids at that age will accept magic as fact and all of those things so they're actually prime targets for 'faith formation' or as some people might call that 'indoctrination'.


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    #86
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    Have any of those here who think the children are being 'indoctrinated', or are having Catholicism 'inflicted' on them by going to mass, actually been to a church service (of any religion) with a preschooler ?

    The kids are far more interested in playing in the seats and looking at the lights, than listening to what the priest had to say, let alone understanding any of it.

    As I said before then will spend long enough in their non religious school to forget all about what they did with the childminder.

    If that were true, would you be happy enough letting me mind your kids for 40 hours a week and tell them that it is ok to murder and steal? Why would you have a problem? Surely when they get removed from that environment they will be disavowed of these ideas? Or maybe not. Maybe some ideas of religion stay with them and they will be affected for the rest of their lives. Catholic guilt is not exactly healthy.


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    #87
    amkin25
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭amkin25


    Well what i don't get is since this person is such a devout atheist,why leave your child with a devout christian in the first place.

    Surely if your feelings for atheism are so strong you should have vetted your minders considering this is ireland where you will get a lot of catholics.

    This poster is so bothered by it then it's his own fault for hiring a devout christian,as for posting here,asking what he can do.
    It's pretty simple he can get a new minder or he can ask her to stop.


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    #88
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    amkin25 wrote: »
    Well what i don't get is since this person is such a devout atheist,why leave your child with a devout christian in the first place.

    Surely if your feelings for atheism are so strong you should have vetted your minders considering this is ireland where you will get a lot of catholics.

    This poster is so bothered by it then it's his own fault for hiring a devout christian,as for posting here,asking what he can do.
    It's pretty simple he can get a new minder or he can ask her to stop.

    I don't recall the OP stating that they were "devout atheists". But even if they are, that is hardly the point. It has to do with professionalism and expectations. I am a "devout atheist" and I assume you are a Catholic and if you were leaving your children with me you could expect that no element of my beliefs would be passed on to your children. You wouldn't have to discuss it with me or lay down ground rules - it's a given!

    What you are arguing is that most people in Ireland are Catholic and therefore you should just expect your kids to be taught that. That is just nonsense. Would you be happy if your kid's child minder was FF or FG and preached that belief to your child? You shouldn't have to law down these rules with a child minder - they should be implicit. Mind the kids but keep your beliefs to yourself.


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    #89
    lulu1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭lulu1


    The kids are under five the childminder goes to mass everyday and takes the kids with her would it be better if she left the kids home alone ???. The kids wont remember a word of the mass anyway it will be in one ear and out the other. But in saying that i think this is the childminders routine and I doubt if she will change it.


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    #90
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    lulu1 wrote: »
    The kids are under five the childminder goes to mass everyday and takes the kids with her would it be better if she left the kids home alone ???. The kids wont remember a word of the mass anyway it will be in one ear and out the other. But in saying that i think this is the childminders routine and I doubt if she will change it.

    It doesn't matter how old the children are. The childminder is working and is employed by the parents. If she wants to go to mass, she can do it in her spare time. If she want's to engage in this behaviour, then she should get the permission of her employer - i.e., the kids parents. You may as well say, "ah sure, the childminder engages in an orgy every day and takes the kids with her. Would it be better that she left the kids home alone???."

    Once again, to simplify this for the people who don't see a problem with this, just substitute Mass for a Scientology gathering. When you realise how inappropriate that would be, you will realise how people who don't believe in sky fairies have a major problem with this.


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    #91
    amkin25
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭amkin25


    bajer101 wrote: »
    I don't recall the OP stating that they were "devout atheists". But even if they are, that is hardly the point. It has to do with professionalism and expectations. I am a "devout atheist" and I assume you are a Catholic and if you were leaving your children with me you could expect that no element of my beliefs would be passed on to your children. You wouldn't have to discuss it with me or lay down ground rules - it's a given!

    What you are arguing is that most people in Ireland are Catholic and therefore you should just expect your kids to be taught that. That is just nonsense. Would you be happy if your kid's child minder was FF or FG and preached that belief to your child? You shouldn't have to law down these rules with a child minder - they should be implicit. Mind the kids but keep your beliefs to yourself.


    I was just pointing out his two options instead of coming on here trying to insult people,you can't deny his wording is insulting to people here who are religious by calling it "crap".
    But while personally taking them to mass if she was doing it secretly is a bit off,doesn't sound very likely to me all the same though,if she was doing it secretly i would agree it's a bit off,but i just don't buy this whole story if i'm honest.


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