Minder indoctrinating children

bajer101

amkin25 wrote: »

I was just pointing out his two options instead of coming on here trying to insult people,you can't deny his wording is insulting to people here who are religious by calling it "crap".
But while personally taking them to mass if she was doing it secretly is a bit off,doesn't sound very likely to me all the same though,if she was doing it secretly i would agree it's a bit off,but i just don't buy this whole story if i'm honest.

Why can't the OP state their belief that religion is "crap"? Why should the OP respect the childminder's beliefs? If the childminder was teaching the kids that 2+2=5, shouldn't the OP be entitled to be rightly annoyed that their kids were being taught "crap"? They are the OP's kids. The OP is paying someone to do a job! Again, I will ask - if your kids were being minded by someone who believed in Scientoolgy and who insisted on bringing your kids to Scientology meetings, would you feel obliged to respect that?

amkin25

bajer101 wrote: »

It doesn't matter how old the children are. The childminder is working and is employed by the parents. If she wants to go to mass, she can do it in her spare time. If she want's to engage in this behaviour, then she should get the permission of her employer - i.e., the kids parents. You may as well say, "ah sure, the childminder engages in an orgy every day and takes the kids with her. Would it be better that she left the kids home alone???."

Once again, to simplify this for the people who don't see a problem with this, just substitute Mass for a Scientology gathering. When you realise how inappropriate that would be, you will realise how people who don't believe in sky fairies have a major problem with this.

In fairness i can see how people can argue about this but i just see this as a silly reason for people to argue,because comparing it to scientology is completely absurd to say the least.

Because to have knowledge of christianity,wether this person you,or any other atheist,muslim whatever your beliefs,to have knowledge of christianity while living in the western world,will be i wouldn't say vital but useful to say the least.
Scientology belief's wont affect your child but catholic beliefs will when they live here,when they ask you why are people having communion,confirmation, christmas?
Your against someone reading books about nativity,are u against reading them books with santa ,how about princes and princesses ? how about the 7 dwarfs thats make believe as well ?
Doesn't leave a lot of books left coz i can tell you kid's book's are full of make believe.

lulu1

Yes the childminder is being paid to mind the children but I guarantee there are very few childminders who sit looking down the childrens throats 8 or how ever many hours a day they get on with their daily routine

bajer101

amkin25 wrote: »

In fairness i can see how people can argue about this but i just see this as a silly reason for people to argue,because comparing it to scientology is completely absurd to say the least.

Because to have knowledge of christianity,wether this person you,or any other atheist,muslim whatever your beliefs,to have knowledge of christianity while living in the western world,will be i wouldn't say vital but useful to say the least.
Scientology belief's wont affect your child but catholic beliefs will when they live here,when they ask you why are people having communion,confirmation, christmas?
Your against someone reading books about nativity,are u against reading them books with santa ,how about princes and princesses ? how about the 7 dwarfs thats make believe as well ?
Doesn't leave a lot of books left coz i can tell you kid's book's are full of make believe.

It has nothing to do with reading books or telling them fairy tales. It has to do with exposing vulnerable children to a belief system and trying to make them believe something - which, as children, they will likely believe. The children will be taught a basic tenet of most religions, which is that there is a life after death. This is absolutely huge and no childminder should be allowed impart this to a child against a parent's wishes. I don't even feel that I have the right to pass on this sort of belief to my child, let alone allow someone else teach them those beliefs behind my back.

bajer101

lulu1 wrote: »

Yes the childminder is being paid to mind the children but I guarantee there are very few childminders who sit looking down the childrens throats 8 or how ever many hours a day they get on with their daily routine

I think that the OP isn't expecting the childminder to look down their children's throats 8 hours a day. They just don't want the kids throats prepped to receive the transubstantuated body of holy god! Or to be taught that they are inherently full of sin and have to confess, etc. etc.

Unless you can say that you would be happy with your kids being brought to a Scientology gathering by their childminder, you have no argument.

riffmongous

I see a lot of people saying that the OP should just fire the child minder, but it seems that it's the OP who needs the child minder here, not the other way around. It's either put up with it until they get back from the holiday and then find a new minder (which is practical but ethically curious) or just find the money for a creche.

amkin25

bajer101 wrote: »

Why can't the OP state their belief that religion is "crap"? Why should the OP respect the childminder's beliefs? If the childminder was teaching the kids that 2+2=5, shouldn't the OP be entitled to be rightly annoyed that their kids were being taught "crap"? They are the OP's kids. The OP is paying someone to do a job! Again, I will ask - if your kids were being minded by someone who believed in Scientoolgy and who insisted on bringing your kids to Scientology meetings, would you feel obliged to respect that?

If he feel's so strongly that its crap he should have stated it to the woman when he hired her.
Beliefs is not a 2+2 question and you know to be fair i am not religious at all not in the least,but i have experience of different cultures and religion's and it's not hard to respect peoples beliefs.
If she done it in secret it sounds strange but otherwise its knowledge for the kids to pick up.
Getting all worked up about indoctrinating them is silly i would ask you what religion were u born into if any?

obplayer

riffmongous wrote: »

I see a lot of people saying that the OP should just fire the child minder, but it seems that it's the OP who needs the child minder here, not the other way around. It's either put up with it until they get back from the holiday and then find a new minder (which is practical but ethically curious) or just find the money for a creche.

My belief is that the OP should just fire the child minder. Religious people have a long track record of being unable to keep their beliefs to themselves, the minder will find a way to indoctrinate the kids. If the OP won't / can't fire the minder then they will have to take the consequences; having a child indoctrinated in nonsense.

amkin25

bajer101 wrote: »

I think that the OP isn't expecting the childminder to look down their children's throats 8 hours a day. They just don't want the kids throats prepped to receive the transubstantuated body of holy god! Or to be taught that they are inherently full of sin and have to confess, etc. etc.

Unless you can say that you would be happy with your kids being brought to a Scientology gathering by their childminder, you have no argument.

Everyone has different experiences but im almost 40 and was brought up here catholic and nobody taught me that i was full of sin,or made me believe anything.

I wish they had convinced me,maybe believing would be a whole lot easier but i don't know where the brainwashing is to be honest,i got told some stuff given some communion and stuff and i ended up not really believing it.

Nothing was forced on me whatsoever and people coming on saying that is just silly,when kids are kids we tell them many fairy stories
Calling it indoctrinating it going a bit far,in fact i think by not teaching them about it you are giving them no option but to be an atheist for life,but if you teach them about religion they can get to an age and make a decision themselves like i have and many others.

One could say its being unfair, by you forcing your views on your child for life by not letting them make a choice,which if you dont teach them about it they have no choice at all,i was taught all about it and indoctrinated like you say but then i got old enough to make my own decision.

riffmongous

obplayer wrote: »

My belief is that the OP should just fire the child minder. Religious people have a long track record of being unable to keep their beliefs to themselves, the minder will find a way to indoctrinate the kids. If the OP won't / can't fire the minder then they will have to take the consequences; having a child indoctrinated in nonsense.

Well also I don't think the minder is going to change her daily routine either. Why should she unless she really needs the money, which shouldn't be the case judging by the price of a creche

I think the won't/can't bit is interesting, can you put a price on your children's indoctrination?

bajer101

amkin25 wrote: »

If he feel's so strongly that its crap he should have stated it to the woman when he hired her.
Beliefs is not a 2+2 question and you know to be fair i am not religious at all not in the least,but i have experience of different cultures and religion's and it's not hard to respect peoples beliefs.
If she done it in secret it sounds strange but otherwise its knowledge for the kids to pick up.
Getting all worked up about indoctrinating them is silly i would ask you what religion were u born into if any?

I was raised Catholic and educated by Jesuits. At least the Jesuits encouraged critical thinking, which encouraged me and nearly all of my classmates to study the subject and come to the conclusion that it's a load of tosh.

I don't think that anyone should feel obliged to respect someone else's beliefs. Why should I? If I told you that I believed that there was a floating teapot that orbited the earth, would you feel obliged to respect that belief? I hope not. But that belief would be based on as much evidence as any religion.

Unfortunately religions are perfectly comparable to 2+2=5 - because they are taught as fact. Children being brought to mass are taught that all those stories are fact. They are taught that there is a life after death (and all the other stories). As I mentioned earlier, children are genetically predisposed to believe what adults them. They take it as gospel! That's why children so readily believe in Santa Claus (which is obviously nonsense).

If your kids were brought to Scientology meetings they would believe their tales. If they were brought to Hindu or Muslim worships, they would believe those tales. There is a world of difference between teaching kids about different belief systems than preaching them as fact. Bringing them to mass teaches it as fact to them -which they will be very inclined to believe.

amkin25

bajer101 wrote: »

I don't think that anyone should feel obliged to respect someone else's beliefs. Why should I? If I told you that I believed that there was a floating teapot that orbited the earth, would you feel obliged to respect that belief? I hope not. But that belief would be based on as much evidence as any religion.

Maybe you should travel a bit,broadens the mind,i don't mean that as an insult,i simply mean if you travel around a bit unless you are just an ignorant person,if you travel you will learn to respect other peoples beliefs.

People all over the world believe many things and some deeply believe and as much as an atheist thinks he can convert the world,it will never happen so you have to learn to respect peoples beliefs.

gctest50

amkin25 wrote: »

If he feel's so strongly that its crap he should have stated it to the woman when he hired her..............

There are some things that you shouldn't really have to say
Be much the same as if she was taking them to McDonnells every day

if "they" don't know this - not the best idea leaving kids with them - they're unwell

if you inhibit them from their carry-on, they could possibly start to think that the kids won't be "saved" and kill them


things that you shouldn't really have to say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mXqKHk63XY

obplayer

riffmongous wrote: »

Well also I don't think the minder is going to change her daily routine either. Why should she unless she really needs the money, which shouldn't be the case judging by the price of a creche

I think the won't/can't bit is interesting, can you put a price on your children's indoctrination?

No. I think that a child's education, i.e. teaching them how to think as opposed to indoctrination in some bizarre belief system, is utterly priceless.

bajer101

amkin25 wrote: »

Everyone has different experiences but im almost 40 and was brought up here catholic and nobody taught me that i was full of sin,or made me believe anything.

I wish they had convinced me,maybe believing would be a whole lot easier but i don't know where the brainwashing is to be honest,i got told some stuff given some communion and stuff and i ended up not really believing it.

Nothing was forced on me whatsoever and people coming on saying that is just silly,when kids are kids we tell them many fairy stories
Calling it indoctrinating it going a bit far,in fact i think by not teaching them about it you are giving them no option but to be an atheist for life,but if you teach them about religion they can get to an age and make a decision themselves like i have and many others.

One could say its being unfair, by you forcing your views on your child for life by not letting them make a choice,which if you dont teach them about it they have no choice at all,i was taught all about it and indoctrinated like you say but then i got old enough to make my own decision.

I'm older than 40 and I most certainly was indoctrinated. If you were raised a Catholic and told that Catholicism was fact - you were too. Luckily enough, we both seem to have broken free from that indoctrination. You were told at a young age that when you die you either go to heaven or hell. You were told that if you sin you have to confess and repent. When we tell kids fairy stories, we don't make out that they are real - they are made aware that they are just stories. Religion is different. Kids are told that it is real, and they believe. The Santa Claus story is a bit different, because we make them believe that - just like religion, and look at how they are prepared to believe that. The difference with Religion is that they are encouraged to continue believe it.

Saying that by not teaching kids about religion only give them the option to be an atheist is absolute nonsense. I'd counter that the opposite is true. Indoctrinating them with religion is telling them that there is only one option - the religion that you are forcing on them. Not forcing a specific religion down their throats leaves their minds open to make their own decision when they are mature enough to form such an important decision. It could be argued that when they are left to make their own minds up that they will probably come to conclusion that religion is a load of tosh - but they will make that decision themselves. Brainwashing them at a young age will invariably skew the stats into them ending up believing what they were brainwashed with as a child. If that weren't true, how come kids who are brought up Catholic belief in Catholicism and kids brought up Muslim believe in Islam and kids brought up Hindu believe in Hinduism?

My daughter will believe whatever she wants to believe, and she will make that decision when her mind is mature enough to really think about that sort of stuff. She will know all about the major religions and what they believe. I will not try influence her. She will also make her own mind up about politics and vote for who she wants to vote for. She's only seven and I don't expect her to have any firm views on politics at the moment. I certainly don't expect her to have any firm views on the much more important issues of life and death and if there is a God and wouldn't dream of preaching to her about it. And neither will any child minder!

amkin25

bajer101 wrote: »

Brainwashing them at a young age will invariably skew the stats into them ending up believing what they were brainwashed with as a child. If that weren't true, how come kids who are brought up Catholic belief in Catholicism and kids brought up Muslim believe in Islam and kids brought up Hindu believe in Hinduism?

But to me anyway which religion doesn't really matter,because it's just that they are all a spiritual life,and each and every person has their own take on their own religion,alright there is fundamentalists in most but the average person doesn't religiously follow the rules,certainly not christian's but it's about a spiritual life.

So to me there is just a spiritual life and a non spiritual,and i would say if you don't show them the way to lead a spiritual life as a child they will never be able to.But if you do show them the way it's very easy to decide not to .

obplayer

amkin25 wrote: »

But to me anyway which religion doesn't really matter,because it's just that they are all a spiritual life,and each and every person has their own take on their own religion,alright there is fundamentalists in most but the average person doesn't religiously follow the rules,certainly not christian's but it's about a spiritual life.

So to me there is just a spiritual life and a non spiritual,and i would say if you don't show them the way to lead a spiritual life as a child they will never be able to.But if you do show them the way it's very easy to decide not to .

Could you start by defining a spiritual life? And one, please, which does not involve belief in bearded sky fairies?

Big Bag of Chips

bajer101 wrote: »

Bringing them to mass teaches it as fact to them -which they will be very inclined to believe.

So surely the simplest solution all round (if the childminding set up is as "convenient" for the OP as they mention) is for Mammy & Daddy to explain that some people believe it. Some don't. Explain it using the examples of Cinderella & Rapunzel... Although the kids might get upset to think Cinderella & Rapunzel aren't real either! We teach the existence of Santa & the tooth fairy as fact too, until kids are old enough to figure it out for themselves.

I believed in Santa for the first 7 or 8 years of my life. Then I thought about it and realised it couldn't be true. It didn't scar me for life, I didn't find it difficult to suspend the belief. And now I teach my kids (as fact) that Santa exists!

There are a number of options available to the OP..

- Find a different, equally convenient minder.
- Request that the minder not bring the kids to mass. She will either agree or not. If she agrees, great. If not, they find a different, equally convenient minder.
- Or allow the arrangement to continue and talk to the kids about things that Mammy & Daddy do or don't believe in.

Edit: It doesn't matter what anyone else believes/doesn't believe. It doesn't matter what we think the minder should or shouldn't do. Bickering about who's right or wrong is a pointless exercise.

The person came asking for advice on what to do. Big long discussion on the merits of religion/Scientology/floating tea-pots aren't really relevant or offering any help!!

MagicMarker

amkin25 wrote: »

Maybe you should travel a bit,broadens the mind,i don't mean that as an insult,i simply mean if you travel around a bit unless you are just an ignorant person,if you travel you will learn to respect other peoples beliefs.

People all over the world believe many things and some deeply believe and as much as an atheist thinks he can convert the world,it will never happen so you have to learn to respect peoples beliefs.

How unbelievably condescending.

Do you respect everyone's beliefs without question?

I respect everyone's right to believe what they want, that doesn't mean I have to respect the beliefs themselves.

Hannibal Smith

amkin25 wrote: »

I was just pointing out his two options instead of coming on here trying to insult people,you can't deny his wording is insulting to people here who are religious by calling it "crap".
But while personally taking them to mass if she was doing it secretly is a bit off,doesn't sound very likely to me all the same though,if she was doing it secretly i would agree it's a bit off,but i just don't buy this whole story if i'm honest.

These are not the two only options open to the op...its not a case of letting her bring them to mass or leave them home alone.

Hannibal Smith

amkin25 wrote: »

If he feel's so strongly that its crap he should have stated it to the woman when he hired her.
Beliefs is not a 2+2 question and you know to be fair i am not religious at all not in the least,but i have experience of different cultures and religion's and it's not hard to respect peoples beliefs.
If she done it in secret it sounds strange but otherwise its knowledge for the kids to pick up.
Getting all worked up about indoctrinating them is silly i would ask you what religion were u born into if any?

It wouldn't even occur to me to ask...here what religion are you and will you be bringing ky kids to mass everyday. Itw non of the ops business what religion the childminder is. Just like its non of the childminders business what religion the kids are. Its not her place to give them religious education.

lazygal

My children wouldn't be old enough to give a full account of the day, maybe the children are the same. I also know from teaching children that you can have an activity filled day, but when they go home they'll say the did nothing or the highlight was so and so being told to stop picking their nose.
I don't mind my minder bringing them out and about, mine does to the shop, playground, school runs etc, but not to church. No way. Do your worshipping on your own time! Imagine telling another employer you need a half hour off every day to go to mass and see how far you get! I was clear with my minder from the start about expectations regarding the day, did you ask what she does with them?

pwurple

lazygal wrote: »

I don't mind my minder bringing them out and about, mine does to the shop, playground, school runs etc, but not to church. No way. Do your worshipping on your own time!

Mass is probably as much part of this woman's day as going to the shop, or doing a school run is. Weekday mass takes about 20 minutes most of the time, (unless you have a chat with the neighbours afterwards too!)

When someone is religious, it can often be part of everything they do. She might say grace before meals. It will be part of her everyday language. (Saying Bless You when the child sneezes for example). The stories she tells might be about Noah's ark. There could be a crucifix or a statue of mary in the house. A crib at christmas time. She probably abstains from something during lent, or talks about advent.

The OP wants to make their religious childminder into someone unreligious. In my experience, it's not going to be possible. You can accept who she is, and deal with the religious things the children are hearing by offering an alternative, or discussing it with them... Or you can find a different childminder, who has a way of life you are mroe comfortable with.

MagicMarker

pwurple wrote: »

Mass is probably as much part of this woman's day as going to the shop, or doing a school run is. Weekday mass takes about 20 minutes most of the time, (unless you have a chat with the neighbours afterwards too!)

When someone is religious, it can often be part of everything they do. She might say grace before meals. It will be part of her everyday language. (Saying Bless You when the child sneezes for example). The stories she tells might be about Noah's ark. There could be a crucifix or a statue of mary in the house. A crib at christmas time. She probably abstains from something during lent, or talks about advent.

The OP wants to make their religious childminder into someone unreligious. In my experience, it's not going to be possible. You can accept who she is, and deal with the religious things the children are hearing by offering an alternative, or discussing it with them... Or you can find a different childminder, who has a way of life you are mroe comfortable with.

Would you stop talking nonsense? The OP does not want to do anything of the sort, and you know it.

Cabaal

lulu1 wrote: »

The kids are under five the childminder goes to mass everyday and takes the kids with her would it be better if she left the kids home alone ???. The kids wont remember a word of the mass anyway it will be in one ear and out the other. But in saying that i think this is the childminders routine and I doubt if she will change it.

Kids are like sponges, they will very much soak information up. They may not understand every single part of it but they will take it in none the less.

The person's job is to mind the children, it is not the person's job to try and indoctrinate them into a faith, thats not what they are paid for. If they want to go to mass let them do it when they are not minding kids,

Big Bag of Chips

But she's not looking for time off from her "employer". Unless she is minding the kids in their house and they are paying her PRSI etc, then they are not her employers. She is self-employed and not taking time off minding the kids to go to mass.. she is going to mass AND minding the kids at the same time.

But this is all nit-picking. So all that argument again is pointless.

At the end of the day, it comes down to what the parents are willing to put up with for the convenience of the minder..

Maybe she is a bit cheaper than other minders, but maybe she's not properly registered? Or maybe she doesn't have a string of childminding qualifications. But she is very kind, great with the kids, brings them to the playground and does baking with them. Maybe she also brings them to mass with her.

It's now up to the parents to decide between them if they are completely happy with the terms of the childminder, or if they are sufficiently happy to let things slide for the sake of the convenience of the arrangement, or if they cannot accept her terms and decide to find a more suitable childminder. It needs to be properly discussed with the childminder, and it doesn't seem like it was. It was all a bit vague in the opening post as to how strongly they put their point across. If you really really don't want your children at mass, then there's no room for vagueness.

There were normal and natural assumptions on both sides. Most parents wouldn't assume that their childminder would regularly bring their children to mass. Most people who go to mass regularly wouldn't assume others would have an issue with bringing children to it.

No harm meant by either side. But now is the time to clear it up.

Edit: And if the children aren't old enough to be able to recount their day and the fact that they were at mass.. they're probably not old enough to take much notice of what was said in mass either.

ryan101

If ever something simple could be analysed to death, this thread is an example of it.

"You might not have known this, but we're not Catholics, so please don't take our kids to mass or teach them the Catholic faith, thanks"

Lisha

ryan101 wrote: »

If ever something simple could be analysed to death, this thread is an example of it.

"You might not have known this, but we're not Catholics, so please don't take our kids to mass or teach them the Catholic faith, thanks"

I think op should have asked minder about her daily routine and what out of house trips she would be doing.

Then he should have told her that they were atheist .

diveout

As parents you have the right to a say in the religious upbringing of your children. It really does not matter what anyone here thinks. Your parental rights were violated. No childminder should be doing any religious stuff with other people's children. And that is pretty much where it lies.

ryan101

diveout wrote: »

As parents you have the right to a say in the religious upbringing of your children. It really does not matter what anyone here thinks. Your parental rights were violated. No childminder should be doing any religious stuff with other people's children. And that is pretty much where it lies.

There is also an obligation on parents to explain what religion they are, or none, to their child minders.
E.g. Jewish or Muslim Children being fed pork would be equally wrong.