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Minder indoctrinating children

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    #122
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    ryan101 wrote: »
    There is also an obligation on parents to explain what religion they are, or none, to their child minders.
    E.g. Jewish or Muslim Children being fed pork would be equally wrong.

    Who seriously would ever in their wildest paranoid fantasies would think the nanny is taking them to religious services?


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    #123
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    amkin25 wrote: »
    In fairness i can see how people can argue about this but i just see this as a silly reason for people to argue,because comparing it to scientology is completely absurd to say the least.

    Because to have knowledge of christianity,wether this person you,or any other atheist,muslim whatever your beliefs,to have knowledge of christianity while living in the western world,will be i wouldn't say vital but useful to say the least.
    Scientology belief's wont affect your child but catholic beliefs will when they live here,when they ask you why are people having communion,confirmation, christmas?
    Your against someone reading books about nativity,are u against reading them books with santa ,how about princes and princesses ? how about the 7 dwarfs thats make believe as well ?
    Doesn't leave a lot of books left coz i can tell you kid's book's are full of make believe.
    Ok as a Catholic or Christian would you be happy with a teacher who is a Jehovah's witnesses telling a class of 5year olds that there was no Santa Claus or Christmas or Easter and Halloween was also not to be celebrated?
    amkin25 wrote: »
    If she done it in secret it sounds strange but otherwise its knowledge for the kids to pick up.
    Getting all worked up about indoctrinating them is silly i would ask you what religion were u born into if any?
    If it was happening once in a while then it would be knowledge for the kids to pick up but when it is daily it becomes much more a part of the children's daily lives.
    Big Bag of Chips wrote: »
    But she's not looking for time off from her "employer". Unless she is minding the kids in their house and they are paying her PRSI etc, then they are not her employers. She is self-employed and not taking time off minding the kids to go to mass.. she is going to mass AND minding the kids at the same time.
    She is paid to mind children but uses the time to go to Mass. She owes the op a refund of an hour for every mass she has taken the children to!
    But this is all nit-picking. So all that argument again is pointless.

    At the end of the day, it comes down to what the parents are willing to put up with for the convenience of the minder..

    Maybe she is a bit cheaper than other minders, but maybe she's not properly registered? Or maybe she doesn't have a string of childminding qualifications. But she is very kind, great with the kids, brings them to the playground and does baking with them. Maybe she also brings them to mass with her.
    No maybe about it, she was caught by a neighbour bringing the children to Mass.
    It's now up to the parents to decide between them if they are completely happy with the terms of the childminder, or if they are sufficiently happy to let things slide for the sake of the convenience of the arrangement, or if they cannot accept her terms and decide to find a more suitable childminder. It needs to be properly discussed with the childminder, and it doesn't seem like it was. It was all a bit vague in the opening post as to how strongly they put their point across. If you really really don't want your children at mass, then there's no room for vagueness.

    There were normal and natural assumptions on both sides. Most parents wouldn't assume that their childminder would regularly bring their children to mass. Most people who go to mass regularly wouldn't assume others would have an issue with bringing children to it.

    No harm meant by either side. But now is the time to clear it up.

    Edit: And if the children aren't old enough to be able to recount their day and the fact that they were at mass.. they're probably not old enough to take much notice of what was said in mass either.
    Children are like sponges, while they may not want to recount their day in school or the day at the minders they will have a lot going around in their little heads and will come out with questions when they are able to vocalise them!

    It was also stated in a previous post that they are most likely just running around and playing in the church when the Mass is going on, I can tell you that this does not happen during midweek masses! this woman most likely has the children told they must remain seated and quiet while the Mass is on and may well have treats for them afterwards if they are good, to bolster the indoctrination!


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    #124
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    diveout wrote: »
    Who seriously would ever in their wildest paranoid fantasies would think the nanny is taking them to religious services?

    An atheist I would have thought. Lots of Catholics go to weekday mass.


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    #125
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    lulu1 wrote: »
    ............ But in saying that i think this is the childminders routine and I doubt if she will change it.

    What if her routine was going for a walk and stopping at the pub for a quick gin and tonic ?


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    #126
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,038 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    No maybe about it, she was caught by a neighbour bringing the children to Mass.

    You misunderstood the context of my sentence! I was using the word "maybe" in the context of outlining all the things that the OP might be willing to over look because the childminder is "convenient" and cheaper than a creche (using his own words there)

    So if she's convenient, and that's one of the reasons they don't want to change childminder, there's a chance that there's a few other things that they are willing to overlook in order to keep her a childminder instead of moving to a less convenient, but "better" childminder... and maybe her bringing the kids to mass is just one more of those things.

    I would think the fact that he posted here asking for others' opinions is one indication that he is considering overlooking it. Otherwise he would have straight up told the minder it was not acceptable to him or his wife and that if she didn't stop it they would have no choice but to find an alternative minder.


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    #127
    vitani
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭vitani


    ryan101 wrote: »
    An atheist I would have thought. Lots of Catholics go to weekday mass.

    Most Catholics in Ireland rarely even go to Sunday Mass.


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    #128
    Roquentin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Roquentin


    What next she will convert them to islam


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    #129
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    I would find another minder straight away. If the other parents are happy for this woman to take their kids to mass and read bible stories, you couldnt expect them all to change their routine for you. She hasnt broken any laws or guidelines. There has been a misunderstanding between service provider and consumer. It happens all the time. Find another childminder and you will have to specify this time that you dont want any religous references.
    Your kids will probably miss her and the daily outings and the stories and the other kids, but i do agree if you have principals you should stick to them. Good luck.


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    #130
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    annoyedannoyed wrote: »
    We have two kids who are minded full time.
    My wife found out the minder has been bringing them to mass from a neighbour who saw them there.
    The minder has also been reading religious stories like Noah and Christmas nativity books.
    She doesn't see the harm. And says she goes to mass every day and other parents have never had a problem with this.
    We are atheist, and don't want our kids exposed to this crap. The older one has been talking about holy God and whatnot, this should have been a clue.
    The problem is the children are very happy there and it is very convenient arrangement in all other respects.
    What can we do to stop the minder bringing the children to mass. We are on holidays at the moment and have no family to help out, creches are too expensive.

    Wow,what a thread...a really significant example of the NEW!,IMPROVED! Ireland in operation.

    Having left the smoking remains of the old "Holy Catholic Ireland" behind us,we appear to be replacing it with something of equally questionable stature ?

    Im kinda intrigued with the notion of a Parent seeing their own Children being Happy,as a "Problem" ?

    Whilst,on the surface,this appears to be a procedural,almost Labour Law related,issue,it could well also be said that it highlights the essential compromise involved in having one's offspring "minded" by another person.

    The only foolproof answer to the question...What can we do to stop the minder bringing the children to mass ?,is Mind your own Children....there's no easier way of putting it really.

    The reality is our Children are exactly that,OURS...and the responsibility for their welfare,happiness and education lies with the Parents themselves.

    In the OP's case,any such strongly held beliefs in these regards appear to be negated by other more mundane concerns....
    ........it is very convenient arrangement in all other respects.
    We are on holidays at the moment and have no family to help out, creches are too expensive.

    In this particular case,the OP may well have to sit down with their Partner and reassess their priorities,such as the relationship between Convienence,Cost and Personal Beliefs,not to mention the welfare of their own Children as they see it.

    This thread,for sure,underlines just how much ongoing mental and emotional consideration has to go into having Children in the first place,with such levels of thought not being as common as we might think ?

    The OP has the final say,either they make a decision in what they see as their Childrens interest,or in their Own interest...The two may well conflict ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #131
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    @aleksmart. Yes i agree with you. But in essence here the OP seems to be asking if the childminder can be prevented by some third party (unspecified) from bringing the children she cares for to mass.
    I can think of no reason for the childminder to change her routine. If the other parents are on board with this then the only choice for the OP is to withdraw their children from her care.
    Even if all the other parents objected then all they could do is withdraw their kids, and this childminder could advertise herself again and probably have no difficulty drumming up business.
    But i suspect the other parents either know and dont care one way or the other or know and are quite satisfied.
    At this point i should nail my colours to the mast and say that if it were my child I would be ecstatic but then I am a practising Catholic and i have no idea what it is like to be an atheist.
    It would seem to me that even to an agnostic, going to mass and probably lighting a few candles and listening to Bible stories is better by far then sitting on a bean bag watching Peppa Pig , but atheism is different. It seems to be a principle really, like veganism but i dont fully get it.


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    #132
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Roquentin wrote: »
    What next she will convert them to islam

    I think she's planning to kidnap them, you know what those cults can be like


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    #133
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    @aleksmart. Yes i agree with you. But in essence here the OP seems to be asking if the childminder can be prevented by some third party (unspecified) from bringing the children she cares for to mass.
    I can think of no reason for the childminder to change her routine. If the other parents are on board with this then the only choice for the OP is to withdraw their children from her care.
    Even if all the other parents objected then all they could do is withdraw their kids, and this childminder could advertise herself again and probably have no difficulty drumming up business.
    But i suspect the other parents either know and dont care one way or the other or know and are quite satisfied.
    At this point i should nail my colours to the mast and say that if it were my child I would be ecstatic but then I am a practising Catholic and i have no idea what it is like to be an atheist.
    It would seem to me that even to an agnostic, going to mass and probably lighting a few candles and listening to Bible stories is better by far then sitting on a bean bag watching Peppa Pig , but atheism is different. It seems to be a principle really, like veganism but i dont fully get it.

    Oddly enough,as somebody with very few strongly held beliefs on this type of stuff,I see your point Mrs Byrne.

    I knew it had been debated hereabouts recently..... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057206540


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #134
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    its probably better than them sitting in front of tv all day though!!

    But in all fairness if you feel this strongly about your children's religious beliefs you prob should have mentioned something at first,

    Wouldn't go in all guns blazing or anything!Sounds like a misunderstanding!


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    #135
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    going to mass and probably lighting a few candles and listening to Bible stories is better by far then sitting on a bean bag watching Peppa Pig.........

    c'mon - it's not like its one or the other


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    #136
    Maphisto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Maphisto


    I've looked at this thread a couple of times before jumping in - I'm still partly in two minds.

    Just my two cents. As a couple you're both atheists, what's wrong with the kids being exposed to a bit of religion here and there before they are old enough to make their own minds up?

    I'd also ask this slightly tongue in check. Do you know what schools they will go to? Are you sure that these will both be secular? Is it possible that somewhere down the line your chosen schools will have a religious entry qualification?

    Best of Luck


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    #137
    Roquentin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Roquentin


    ryan101 wrote: »
    I think she's planning to kidnap them, you know what those cults can be like

    And teach them how to fly planes


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    #138
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Roquentin wrote: »
    And teach them how to fly planes

    Hmm, I think you're on to something, I bet she has a home made flight simulator. Watch out for kids talking about planes when they get home.


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    #139
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    @aleksmart. Yes i agree with you. But in essence here the OP seems to be asking if the childminder can be prevented by some third party (unspecified) from bringing the children she cares for to mass.
    I can think of no reason for the childminder to cine. If the other parents are on board with this then the only choice for the OP is to withdraw their children from her care.
    Even if all the other parents objected then all they could do is withdraw their kids, and this childminder could advertise herself again and probably have no difficulty drumming up business.
    But i suspect the other parents either know and dont care one way or the other or know and are quite satisfied.
    At this point i should nail my colours to the mast and say that if it were my child I would be ecstatic but then I am a practising Catholic and i have no idea what it is like to be an atheist.
    It would seem to me that even to an agnostic, going to mass and probably lighting a few candles and listening to Bible stories is better by far then sitting on a bean bag watching Peppa Pig , but atheism is different. It seems to be a principle really, like veganism but i dont fully get it.

    I don't get why people are setting either or scenarios in such extremes. There are plenty of decent well rounded childminders out there who don't sit kids in front of the tv. The option isn't bring them to mass or ait them in front of the tv.

    Also the narrow minded views of atheism are hilarious. The op doesn't want their child to receive any religious instruction. I don't know anyone religious atheist or otherwise who would feel it necessary to mention it to a potential childminder. In fact it should have been the childminder who said it to the op from the start that she goes to mass on a daily basis and would it be a problem if the children accompanied her.

    As for the minding your own kids remarks. ..thankfully we live in a world where both parents are entitled to work and pay for a service that takes care of their kids while doing so. We're also entitled to ensure we're satisfied with that childcare


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    #140
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    ryan101 wrote: »
    I think she's planning to kidnap them, you know what those cults can be like
    Roquentin wrote: »
    And teach them how to fly planes
    ryan101 wrote: »
    Hmm, I think you're on to something, I bet she has a home made flight simulator. Watch out for kids talking about planes when they get home.




    http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html


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    #141
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    gctest50 wrote: »
    http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html

    She's a female bishop in disguise, I knew it !


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    #142
    Jogathon
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭Jogathon


    My sister's two children were minded by a local lady in her late 30's/early 40's who had turned to religion while her own mother was dying. She brought them to mass most mornings. We just thought it was a bit funny and a little bit odd. They didn't understand anything and weren't indoctrinated at all.


    They adored her, and she took them everywhere with her so they were exposed to many different and exciting situations. In fact, they were very well behaved in public because of the good behaviour expected in mass, this carried through to restaurants, cafés etc.

    However, we were raised Catholic and don't hate the church (but don't attend either) so are more chilled in our attitude than the OP seems to be.

    Op, I genuinely hope there is an Educate Together primary and secondary school in your area!!


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    #143
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    ryan101 wrote: »
    She's a female bishop in disguise, I knew it !

    sorry - forgot i had to spell it out

    "faciltating"

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/nun-at-derry-home-facilitated-abuse-by-priest-woman-tells-inquiry-1.1689254


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    #144
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    gctest50 wrote: »
    sorry - forgot i had to spell it out

    "faciltating"

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/nun-at-derry-home-facilitated-abuse-by-priest-woman-tells-inquiry-1.1689254

    The childminder is actually facilitating abuse by a Priest ! At last we're getting to the REAL story


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    #145
    Roquentin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Roquentin


    ryan101 wrote: »
    Hmm, I think you're on to something, I bet she has a home made flight simulator. Watch out for kids talking about planes when they get home.

    I wouldnt put it past her owning a boeing 737-800, like what Mick O leary has


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    #146
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Any more posts like the ones below and I'll start handing out warnings.
    ryan101 wrote: »
    She's a female bishop in disguise, I knew it !
    ryan101 wrote: »
    The childminder is actually facilitating abuse by a Priest ! At last we're getting to the REAL story
    Roquentin wrote: »
    I wouldnt put it past her owning a boeing 737-800, like what Mick O leary has


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    #147
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Hannibal Smith wrote: »
    I don't get why people are setting either or scenarios in such extremes. There are plenty of decent well rounded childminders out there who don't sit kids in front of the tv. The option isn't bring them to mass or sit them in front of the tv.

    Also the narrow minded views of atheism are hilarious.The op doesn't want their child to receive any religious instruction. I don't know anyone religious atheist or otherwise who would feel it necessary to mention it to a potential childminder.In fact it should have been the childminder who said it to the op from the start that she goes to mass on a daily basis and would it be a problem if the children accompanied her.

    As for the minding your own kids remarks. ..thankfully we live in a world where both parents are entitled to work and pay for a service that takes care of their kids while doing so. We're also entitled to ensure we're satisfied with that childcare

    Perhaps,although I'm not seeing any either/or extremes,after all,there have been a range of responses to the QUESTION posed by the OP in their OP.

    Surely a childminding arrangement,described by the OP as being a
    very convenient arrangement in all other respects.
    ,with the Children being regarded,by their own Parent,as being HAPPY would suggest that this Childminder is exactly the "decent,well-rounded" type of person you refer to.

    The Op not wanting their children to have Religious Instruction,is in this instance,a moot-point,unless we are to assume the OP is paying for Education,in addition to,Childminding ?

    For sure there is an entitlement for parents to work and pay for a service to
    "Take care of their kids"
    ,however that entitlement does not automatically convert into an affordable reality for a great many parents,which may well be the case here.

    As Hannibal Smith points out,if the OP is not satisfied with this Woman's methodology,then surely there can be no prevarication...end the arrangement Immediately,without musing online upon the after effects of ending a "Very Convienient Arrangement"...

    Who has the priority here...The Children or The Parents ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #148
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Perhaps,although I'm not seeing any either/or extremes,after all,there have been a range of responses to the QUESTION posed by the OP in their OP.

    Surely a childminding arrangement,described by the OP as being a,with the Children being regarded,by their own Parent,as being HAPPY would suggest that this Childminder is exactly the "decent,well-rounded" type of person you refer to.

    The Op not wanting their children to have Religious Instruction,is in this instance,a moot-point,unless we are to assume the OP is paying for Education,in addition to,Childminding ?

    For sure there is an entitlement for parents to work and pay for a service to ,however that entitlement does not automatically convert into an affordable reality for a great many parents,which may well be the case here.

    As Hannibal Smith points out,if the OP is not satisfied with this Woman's methodology,then surely there can be no prevarication...end the arrangement Immediately,without musing online upon the after effects of ending a "Very Convienient Arrangement"...

    Who has the priority here...The Children or The Parents ?

    Nobody has priority. It's up to all parties to find an arrangement that suits them all and where they each draw the line.
    The woman ia entitled to practise her religion. The parents are entitled bring their child up without religious instruction.


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    #149
    Maphisto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Maphisto


    Well all of that may or may not be true but here we are 5 days in, and 150 posts later and nothing further from the OP. No clarification, no justification, nothing.

    So was it just setting a hare running? :pac:


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    #150
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Hannibal Smith wrote: »
    Nobody has priority. It's up to all parties to find an arrangement that suits them all and where they each draw the line.
    The woman is entitled to practise her religion. The parents are entitled bring their child up without religious instruction.

    To a point...but the OP sought opinions then exited stage-left,so perhaps as Maphisto sez...
    Was it just setting a hare running?

    I still find it noteworthy,that other than the OP's adult concerns regarding the potential for unathorised Religious Instruction,there appear to be no other issues with the Childminder,apart from some HAPPY children.....where's the beef ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #151
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    ryan101 wrote: »
    The childminder is actually facilitating abuse by a Priest ! At last we're getting to the REAL story

    The OP can't ask for advise without an anti-theist swooping in when he sees am opportunity for a bit of good old fashioned RCC bashing.
    Childminder takes kids to mass = clerical child sex abuse. Obviously. (Sigh)


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