Expectation to work late

ryan101

tempnam wrote: »

I also work in financial services and am amazed at some of the hours people put in. As someone else mentioned earlier they see it as a badge of honour.

I know of one colleague who lives 1.5 - 2 hours away from the office and he regularly stays in the office until after 8pm. What sort of life is that?

Personally I'd rather get out of there as soon as possible and spend the evening with my wife & child. At the end of the day the only things that really matter are your loved ones. People seriously undervalue their free time. Nobody knows what the future holds so putting your life on hold in order to work long hours in the hope of 'making it' is crazy imo.

Some people no longer get on with their spouse/family all that well, and try to avoid being at home. It's far more common than you think.

Onthe3rdDay

davo10 wrote: »

So, the guy next to you has the same job, he/she is as good as you are, no better, no worse but he/she but puts in more hours when needed. A job promotion comes up with increased salary and career prospects, the employer needs to pick one of you, which one?

It depends on so much more than how many hours are put in. Are you friends with your employer? Is your employer fair in his or her decisions? Does your employer have a problem with certain people doing certain jobs. In a fair world the person making more of an effort would be picked, but this world isn't fair.

It's all about the Money and your quality of Life. No one is going to remember how high you rise in a company six months after you retire. You have to do what's best for you and not your company.

Kristopherus

ezopsae wrote: »

Bill Cullen used to take that to an extreme - people should just work all their time for free. What a spoofer he turned out to be with his failed businesses.

Of course the narrative that people should be mugs and work for free or face career suicide is a very convenient and profitable narrative for management to put out.

davo10 wrote: »

I think auld penny apples is a pain in the ass but he is a hard grafter and the recession/ the decision of Renault to more it's distribution in house, did for him. Don't be surprised if you see him back in a few years.

mada999 wrote: »

I've no doubt he will

Where have you been guys? The bould Bill is already back and is flogging Ssanyongs:D

davo10

Kristopherus wrote: »

Where have you been guys? The bould Bill is already back and is flogging Ssanyongs:D

I know, heard the ad this morning, you gotta admire him for getting back on his feet.

ezopsae

Kristopherus wrote: »

Where have you been guys? The bould Bill is already back and is flogging Ssanyongs

Best of luck to him.

Suggesting that people should be happy to work for free was a bit much to take though, and hopefully he's stopped it. Ulster Bank still has an 8 million euro judgment against him.

davo10

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

It depends on so much more than how many hours are put in. Are you friends with your employer? Is your employer fair in his or her decisions? Does your employer have a problem with certain people doing certain jobs. In a fair world the person making more of an effort would be picked, but this world isn't fair.

It's all about the Money and your quality of Life. No one is going to remember how high you rise in a company six months after you retire. You have to do what's best for you and not your company.

It's always convenient for people to assume someone else got a promotion/job because of "who they know".

Success isn't always about how other people remember you, it's about ambition and self fulfilment. I'm not taking about doing what's best for the company, I'm talking about what's best for you. If you want to do nothing more that the minimum required, fine, pick up your pay check and party harty. But if you have ambition and you are not that beacon of talent, it takes hard work to progress above you colleagues who are also competing for that promotion.

ezopsae

If you're working at a sinkhole company that expects unpaid overtime, you're probably better off keeping an eye on the job's market and looking for a company that values you as an employee. I feel sorry for people with kids at such a company who have to rush to creches in heavy traffic after a long stressful day, or carers, for example. These people simply can not stay - their prospects are dim when you have managers that expect people to work unpaid overtime if they want to advance.

By saying unpaid overtime is okay and perfectly acceptable, you're saying it's okay to judge people on how much mug-time they're willing to put in - when it's not.

Onthe3rdDay

davo10 wrote: »

It's always convenient for people to assume someone else got a promotion/job because of "who they know".

Success isn't always about how other people remember you, it's about ambition and self fulfilment. I'm not taking about doing what's best for the company, I'm talking about what's best for you. If you want to do nothing more that the minimum required, fine, pick up your pay check and party harty. But if you have ambition and you are not that beacon of talent, it takes hard work to progress above you colleagues who are also competing for that promotion.

IMHO if you're working in a company where you're expected to work long hours for no payment you're not doing what's best for you. In my experience those that work the hardest are often overlooked. I work for myself so I don't have that problem, However in my younger days I worked for companies where management promoted people because they knew someone's brother or they were friends in school. It happens all the time in this country.

I have always found companies that take advantage of employees, are the very same companies that do ignore hard work and the extra effort. Always be wary of people and companies that treat people lower down the ladder with disrespect.

NZ_2014

mada999 wrote: »

wish I had of ignored my teacher in 3rd year when I told her "i'd like to be a pilot" and she told me i'd never be because i was poor at maths

Could still be a pilot. If you have the money for the training fees!

superfurry1

This thread reminds of this ha

mada999

NZ_2014 wrote: »

Could still be a pilot. If you have the money for the training fees!

ah i'm in my early 30s now, took a flying lesson at weston in my 20s and loved it though )

bb12

work in IT and have worked in a lot of different industries with it over the years and without doubt i've constantly witnessed that it is not the hardest working individual in various departments in these industries who would get promoted...always the people who were "in" with the management team. i've seen management actually create roles for their favourites to move them up the ladder and when they surpass these roles, instead of giving someone else a chance, these roles within the company suddenly disappear.

FURET

I think a good employer is one who cares about work-life balance, retaining talent, and avoiding burnout. Attrition is very expensive for an organization.
If my manager notices that I'm online later than usual or on my day off, he contacts me and shows a bit of concern. He always tells me to feel free to get the time back for myself at my leisure. I never do, because it happens so seldom. But I appreciate the sentiment.

I don't work overtime more than once every two months, and even then it's not called overtime and it's not something to be compensated for financially. Regardless, I still got promoted and got a bunch of additional benefits (cash, shares, travel opportunities) for my performance last year. I'm in IT and I work in a cubicle, and I differentiate myself from colleagues by being innovative and proactive and producing higher quality work during my regular hours.

blackbaron

Depends on the industry you're working in and what you want out of life.

Generally though, the smarter/harder/intelligent/creative work and those who do it won't be working in rigid corporate hierarchies where unpaid overtime is the expectation. The easier/dumber/more forumalic/straight forward/less skilled work and those who do it will be working in such areas and will be expected to do unpaid overtime as it's how their mediocre manager got to where he/she is and they'll be damned if they don't put their lackeys through the motions.

I had to laugh at the comment "You can't adopt a 9-5 mentality in this day and age imo" made earlier. If there is any "day and age" that we should be prioritizing life over work then it is now, as we are more productive than ever and are enjoying a greater standard of life than ever.

If you're doing highly intelligent and/or creative work and are being pressured to do overtime then there's a problem with either the company management or your own skills that needs to be addressed. If you're able to go into work and do basically the same thing every day and have a rather strict line of command above you, then expect to work overtime if you want to succeed as it's how the mediocre succeed to mediocre management positions where they'll be forgotten less than 12 months after they leave, and these are the people you'll be looking for promotions from. If you don't want to reach middle management and just want to earn money to support your life, first of all good for you, go earn your cash, get out on time and do great things with your free time.

If you're doing highly intelligent and/or creative work and there's a vested interest at play - such as in a startup or on the trading floor - then you should be putting in overtime as the name of the game is to get big early and get out early.

mikemac1

Work in finance and the hours can be long. Wouldn't be unusual to get one day off every fourteen or to work 14 hour days

My salary sure isn't huge but I get time and a half for anything beyond 9-5 and double time at weekends

That's going to be my holiday money!

The supervisors don't earn much more then me and work the same hours. Not uncommon for a new hire to pull more money then an experienced supervisor

A supervisor will work all the hours of a manager but a fraction of the salary and only a vague belief that one day they will "make it "

AlekSmart

tempnam wrote: »

I also work in financial services and am amazed at some of the hours people put in. As someone else mentioned earlier they see it as a badge of honour.

I know of one colleague who lives 1.5 - 2 hours away from the office and he regularly stays in the office until after 8pm. What sort of life is that?

Personally I'd rather get out of there as soon as possible and spend the evening with my wife & child. At the end of the day the only things that really matter are your loved ones. People seriously undervalue their free time. Nobody knows what the future holds so putting your life on hold in order to work long hours in the hope of 'making it' is crazy imo.

Good to see the EU (Or at least the French) getting a bit bolshie with those Employers who have come to regard the Telephone as having been invented specifically to harass Staff.....and even better is how the French arms of the big U.S. companies have to just suck it up !!!

http://www.theguardian.com/money/shortcuts/2014/apr/09/french-6pm-labour-agreement-work-emails-out-of-office

No doubt the Irish Government are getting their policy ready as we speak...OOOOps ...look what I did just there

Stovepipe

Don't work for free, ever. Irish companies are notorious for taking the piss, especially a certain well-known supermarket chain; paid for 40, work for 60 hours stuff.No thanks, not staying for thankless hassle and grief.I've seen quite enough people grinding themselves into aged wrecks working well after hours or being available on free, unagreed, uncompensated "on call", on the basis that they might get a promotion. Finish no later than 6, if you have to, because you have to look after your own life.Don't answer emails when you are off or on holidays. Do not let them take the piss out of your contract or of you.An occasional dig-out is alright butnot every day or every week.

regards
Stovepipe

Ray Palmer

I worked in a company where I was hired by them to keep an eye on the company they hired to provide software. I kept to the hours I worked the hours I was contracted to do. I was working within the 2nd companies teams in order to do my job.

They worked ridiculous silly hours. So one day as I was leaving one of the project managers called me in.
PM" You are leave?"
Me " What? I am on contract for another 4 months?"
PM " Sorry I mean for the day"
Me "Yeah it's 5:30"
PM " Have look out there"
Me turned looked, looked back at him "Is there something I am missing?"
PM " See all the people STILL her and not leaving?"
Me "Oh, I see them"
PM "Do you think it is fair that they are staying and you are leaving? That is daily"
Me " No I don't think it is fair, they should be leaving too"
PM " You know that is not what I meant"
Me " I could guess but you were asking me a question and I gave you my opinion"
PM " You know the company makes money by billing hours. So we make more money based on the hours people spend here"
Me " Really, should the hours being spent not relate to the work and need"
PM " People have to work these hours"
Me " I don't think so. Is there a problem with my productivity?"
MP " Not that I am aware of."
Me " So what are you exactly saying"
PM " You leaving early set a bad precedent and effects the others on the team"
Me " I am not leaving early I am leaving on time. Do you know I don't work for your company?"
PM "Yes you are a contractor so work for that company but we hired you"
Me " No you didn't hire me. I work for your client to insure that you aren't over billing and stick to quality standards"
PM " What I thought you were one of our contractors?"
Me " No, do you say this to your staff when they leave on time?"
PM " Not at all"
Me " I am bit confused, why would it be acceptable to say this to a contractor you hired?"
PM "Well we want to get the best value out of our contractors"
Me " Does the contract not state hour of work?"
PM " I think what are contract agreement details are is private information I can't share."
Me " That's fine but to clarify what you said to me is if I was one of your contractors you would want me to stay late in order to have more billable hours regardless of whether I have work?"
PM " Not at all just we would expect the contractors to do the same hours as the rest of the staff."
Me " Regardless of productivity and you called me in here without even checking?"
PM " Look I am sorry for calling you in here it was my mistake"
Me " It was a much bigger mistake than mixing up who works for you"
PM "What do you mean"
Me " Sorry I will have to discuss what was said here with my employer it solidifies some discussions that have taken place already"
PM " What do you mean?"
Me " Part of my role is to check if the company is being over charged and the productivity of the your company's teams"
PM "Listen can we not keep this among ourselves as an honest misunderstanding?"
Me " I don't think I misunderstood anything. I'll see you tomorrow and expect requests for productivity reports along with queries on additional billable hours outside the core hours"

The PM was moved off the project and the company were told that any additional hours would need prior approval and a specific costing. It should have always been done. I had warned the company that the hours they had been working did not make any sense way before this but it had been dismissed.
It has to be noted the company were billing more hours than they were paying out due to their method of making people stay regardless of hours needed.

drumswan

Classic

ryan101

Brilliant. Forcing people to work extra hours for free so they can bill their clients for extra hours. Scumbags. Pity the people sitting on every evening didn't know that, and that they could be at home with their families instead.

uck51js9zml2yt

A relative of mine got a job with an big accountancy firm.
After 8 months of working late with no overtime and not seeing his family he spoke to HR.
They let him walk.

Getting home at 11 pm every night couldn't carry on.

He understood that a certain periods it was busy but this was standard practice.

ryan101

Ignacio Few Mechanic wrote: »

A relative of mine got a job with an big accountancy firm.
After 8 months of working late with no overtime and not seeing his family he spoke to HR.
They let him walk.

HR call that their "family friendly policy"

Kate!!!

Very common in finance sector and you find those who work late get promoted a lot quicker. They tend to work hard in the early years to get promoted into a role and then I find once that happens the expectation is no longer there for them to work as late as they previously did !!!

Ray Palmer

ryan101 wrote: »

Brilliant. Forcing people to work extra hours for free so they can bill their clients for extra hours. Scumbags. Pity the people sitting on every evening didn't know that, and that they could be at home with their families instead.

I worked in one company that did it the other way. You would size a project out and let your boss know how long it would take. They would then work out that as a cost. Then they would look at the price and say the client won't pay that. Instead of telling the client the price they would reduce the estimates and then come up with a cheaper price. The client would haggle a bit and then normally get the job cheaper again.
Then when you were doing the project with the new unrealistic deadline and amount of work. It would inevitable mean that you had to do unpaid overtime to finish the project on time. Of course because the overtime wasn't being recorded it looked like we did the project within the estimates. The PM manager would get a pat on the back for their work even though they probably didn't do any overtime.
A new accountant and HR person joined they said all hours had to be recorded. This showed the massive unpaid work that was being done very clearly. The MD had been claiming we had been just moaning and once he was given hard facts he did the right thing.
No he didn't. He fired the HR person and told the accountant to remove any unpaid hours from calculations and never to include them again.

I bumped into one of the board of directors a year after leaving. All very friendly and general how are things. As we were talking the whole manner of the unpaid overtime and loss making work if billing was accurate. Of course he was going to fix that.

A few weeks later I got a letter from a solicitor informing me to not talk slander about the company. I responded with a copy of my time sheets and estimates of work for numerous projects. The HR person had left the system in place and it e-mailed automatically to my personal e-mail account. It may have been done on purpose who knows.

I really don't trust any employer to do the right thing. The sheep that go on about it being the only way to get a head are just brain washed. You are being taken advantage of and you are willing to do the same to people once you get in charge. It is a self propagating failure to be able to manage things accurately

irishguy1983

Working long hours unpaid in my experience is quite common practice in US multinationals - the longer hours you work the more likely you too get promoted.

Ray Palmer

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Working long hours unpaid in my experience is quite common practice in US multinationals - the longer hours you work the more likely you too get promoted.

The problem is that doesn't mean the best people get promoted. All it means is the person who gets promoted has the same belief that you have to work longer hours to be good at your job. I'd promote the person that is reliable and able to do their job within the given time.
You can effectively be promoting the person who is slower than everybody else. I have seen this happen too. It is the best way to alienate staff and promote incompetence in my direct experience.

ryan101

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Working long hours unpaid in my experience is quite common practice in US multinationals - the longer hours you work the more likely you too get promoted.

The smarter you work is always better. Longer is not smarter.

irishguy1983

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The problem is that doesn't mean the best people get promoted. All it means is the person who gets promoted has the same belief that you have to work longer hours to be good at your job. I'd promote the person that is reliable and able to do their job within the given time.
You can effectively be promoting the person who is slower than everybody else. I have seen this happen too. It is the best way to alienate staff and promote incompetence in my direct experience.

I agree but for some roles (maybe a lot) you don't need the person to be that smart so might aswell take the person who works the longest hours.

I understand for some roles it is better to have a very smart person but again I might argue these roles are very senior and few and far between!

Onthe3rdDay

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Working long hours unpaid in my experience is quite common practice in US multinationals - the longer hours you work the more likely you too get promoted.

Years ago I went to the States for a week or So, I came back and about 10 weeks later I went again for a week. I was held up and asked questions about why I was returning so soon. The suspicious thing to them was that I said I was taking a few days off of work. They couldn't get their head around that I could have so much time off.

I have noticed that amongst certain friends I have in the states that not only do they work long hours, they never seem to take holidays. In fact those that work long hours tend to also have 2nd jobs at the weekends just to make ends meet.

Cyrus

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

Years ago I went to the States for a week or So, I came back and about 10 weeks later I went again for a week. I was held up and asked questions about why I was returning so soon. The suspicious thing to them was that I said I was taking a few days off of work. They couldn't get their head around that I could have so much time off.

I have noticed that amongst certain friends I have in the states that not only do they work long hours, they never seem to take holidays. In fact those that work long hours tend to also have 2nd jobs at the weekends just to make ends meet.

Most cos in the us have 10-15 days annual leave

Ray Palmer

irishguy1983 wrote: »

I agree but for some roles (maybe a lot) you don't need the person to be that smart so might aswell take the person who works the longest hours.

I understand for some roles it is better to have a very smart person but again I might argue these roles are very senior and few and far between!

That is a terrible outlook for employment. Most of the discussion is about financial roles and you would hope they are hiring smart people and promoting smart people.

If you aren't promoting the smart ones the pool the senior managers come from must be from the dumb ones who have poor time management.

In IT you want the smart ones who can mentor the team not somebody who's only response is "Can you work longer hours?"

ryan101

irishguy1983 wrote: »

I agree but for some roles (maybe a lot) you don't need the person to be that smart so might aswell take the person who works the longest hours.

I understand for some roles it is better to have a very smart person but again I might argue these roles are very senior and few and far between!

Hmmmmm, "you don't need smart people in management", sounds like you are perfect Irish management material.

Onthe3rdDay

Cyrus wrote: »

Most cos in the us have 10-15 days annual leave

Understood, but I've found that many don't even take those days off with the fear if they're not at their desk they'll be fired. I really don't think that's a good way to run a business.

Ray Palmer

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

Years ago I went to the States for a week or So, I came back and about 10 weeks later I went again for a week. I was held up and asked questions about why I was returning so soon. The suspicious thing to them was that I said I was taking a few days off of work. They couldn't get their head around that I could have so much time off.

I have noticed that amongst certain friends I have in the states that not only do they work long hours, they never seem to take holidays. In fact those that work long hours tend to also have 2nd jobs at the weekends just to make ends meet.

Having worked in a US office you would not believe what they consider working. The spend hours endlessly talking about their lives, which they don't have much of because they work long hours. If they actually worked when in work they wouldn't need to be there all the hours.
It is just about being seen in the office. That's what happens here too when people are forced to stay in work regardless of work load.

Wanderer2010

Im not in finance but there is a culture in the office of management expecting people to do an extra few hours in the weekend every second week and a few people do stick to this religiously and yes, some managers do look more favorably on the people who do this but in my experience the more you do, the more you are expected to do and this slowly becomes the yardstick by which, rightly or wrongly, you are measured. Fail to do your reports one day? Your boss wont think its because you have no time, its because you didnt do your "standard" 12 hour shift..

I refuse to do any more than what is expected of me simply because I think only a mug or a misguided company man/woman would give away so many of their non-work hours just to keep a boss happy. In many places, you are secretly laughed at for doing so much extra work and respect for you lowers. I know each place is different and people are often ruled by fear over their jobs but there isnt a workplace in the world that will collapse and go bust if a staff member just goes home at the allocated time. I had a friend who used to be very worried about leaving at half 5 and would often stay until 6pm but I told her to just tell them, if they asked her to do work, to simply walk out and say "Sorry, im heading home now" and thats that. She said later it was the best feeling ever and the office was still there the next morning...

I dont mind working overtime the VERY odd time and giving my workmates out but anything outside the usual 9-5 is out for me. Who wants to be a sad company man with no time for an outside life?

FrStone

I have a phrase I use where I work if I see someone staying back later or under pressure. "We don't save lives here".

While some managers will harp on about how urgent x and y is, it can always be delayed.

Tarzana

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Working long hours unpaid in my experience is quite common practice in US multinationals - the longer hours you work the more likely you too get promoted.

Hate American work culture. It's commonplace to not take all your holiday days. Fcuk that sh1t.

ryan101

FrStone wrote: »

I have a phrase I use where I work if I see someone staying back later or under pressure. "We don't save lives here".

While some managers will harp on about how urgent x and y is, it can always be delayed.

Try that with managers who doesn't accept that answer.

Gongoozler

I feel sorry for the type of people who think they have to work extra hours so they've been chance at promotion. It must be a sad boring life. As it is I consider a 37 hour week a little too long. I'll stay five or ten minutes after 5 to finish something up if needed, and stay on whatever time needed once over time has been approved, but no to anything else. I am a hard worker, and my bosses can see that. They've told me to go home a few times they've seen me on a little late.

No job or supposed promotion is worth taking away from your time off. Your work just is not that important (for most people)

Squatman

Elessar wrote: »

How common is an expectation to work late, unpaid? Where I work (finance related) there is a kind of unwritten rule that it is the done thing and even expected quite often. I know people who have so much work to do they sometimes have to arrive in at 8am and finish at 10pm (normal working day would be 9-6).

My department is not that bad however I am dead set against this way of going on. I've no problem once in a blue moon doing a few extra hours in a week to get something done (and by once in a blue moon I mean once a year or twice a year at most) but my supervisor has a specific expectation on me quite often to stay late, and it puts a lot of pressure on me. For example, setting me work to do which would take a few hours when I am due to go home in an hour (and it HAS to be done). Then again my boss is a renowned selfish person who doesn't give a damn about his employees (only points out mistakes in work and never praises).

In fact when I complained about the hours some of the staff had to put in, he told me "you're paid to do a job. No matter how long it takes you to do it, you do it, full stop".

Is this common? I had no choice but to leave on time today yet he sent me files to prepare about an hour before I left which take a few hours on a good day. I rushed through them and no doubt he will find some niggly mistakes to complain about tomorrow so I am dreading it. He wasn't too impressed I was leaving either. I just don't like having to feel bad for leaving on time.

The way i look at it (rightly or wrongly) is that you were intelligent enough to go to college, spend 3-6 years on bettering yourself - often with no income - in order to increase your intelligence & net worth. If after this time, you cannot defend your position, or have confidence in your own ability to work during your core hours - then you should take a long hard look at yourself. If you have to work 40+ hours to be in the running for a promotion, then likely you shouldnt be putting yourself forward for this promotion.-this is not aimed at the OP but would just be my view on it. Not everyone is bidding for a promotion - some should be building up enough experience, and can change companies for chance of promotion. But is the extra stress worth the extra money?

I had a heated debate with my boss recently, when i was accused of not checking my emails over the weekend. Ireplied - i have not looked at them, nor will I... I got verbally told off, and told that i would be "dealt with" but i had the confidence to know this was an unreasonable request, and havent heard a thing about it since - this was about a month ago

sdanseo

Your hours of work and expectations thereof are governed by your terms and conditions of employment. If they want you to work over and above what's in those, you have reason to be upset, within reason (see below).

Once your average wage per hour doesn't drop below €8.65 it's all legal once they don't breach whatever's in your contract.

Now all that said, there's your contract and the real world. We get paid, for example, to do a 9-6 shift. We are expected to stay until about 6.15 to cash up, and we do, happily so in fact. If you're sad enough to moan over a few minutes you don't deserve the job. On the other hand if they started asking us to work till 7 instead of 6 every day, that would be different.

TheBlock

You'll never be stuck for work if you work for free.

I work from 8.30 to 5 daily in a fairly senior management position. I check email from home and will make phone calls if required, nobody contacts me on the phone outside of office hours as they know I won't answer. If it's important email me so it's documented and I will respond out of hours if I deem it is required.
I will work some additional hours due to unforeseen circumstances or to meet particularly tight deadlines but this is as time in lieu and I will take this back when not as busy. In my experience if you have to constantly work late to do your job your doing something wrong and it should be queried. I see a lot of this late work as posturing by some employees to make their positions/themselves seem more important. After 25 years working for some major multinationals I can tell you that at the end of the day it doesn't matter if you work 40 hour weeks or 80 hour weeks if your not producing your gone.

NZ_2014

TheBlock wrote: »

In my experience if you have to constantly work late to do your job your doing something wrong and it should be queried. I see a lot of this late work as posturing by some employees to make their positions/themselves seem more important.

Some companies are understaffed and employees will put in the time to make up the shortfall for fear of losing their job. So I wouldn't say it's posturing in all cases but no doubt that happens.

Ray Palmer

sdeire wrote: »

Your hours of work and expectations thereof are governed by your terms and conditions of employment. If they want you to work over and above what's in those, you have reason to be upset, within reason (see below).

Once your average wage per hour doesn't drop below €8.65 it's all legal once they don't breach whatever's in your contract.

Now all that said, there's your contract and the real world. We get paid, for example, to do a 9-6 shift. We are expected to stay until about 6.15 to cash up, and we do, happily so in fact. If you're sad enough to moan over a few minutes you don't deserve the job. On the other hand if they started asking us to work till 7 instead of 6 every day, that would be different.

There is the working time directive, your pay doesn't counter that law.

Unpaid overtime will happen in most places but if it is constant and expected your contract should be honest. If it say you do 40hrs a week and in reality you do 50hrs a week for a year the contract is not being adhered to. That is regardless of the usual part that mentions occasional overtime required. If it isn't occasional the company is breaching their own contract.

Yes some companies are understaffed and barely getting by so it is up to the person if they want to commit to the company in order to let it survive.

It is a whole other issue when the company makes massive profits and does this. Easy to make a profit if you don't pay your staff for the work they do.

Certain aspects of US employment practices cannot happen in this country due to EU law. The reason you must take 2 weeks off is because of one case where a man had a nervous break down as he was not able to take his holidays for 10 years. It was partially his fault by not taking them so they made it law that you must make sure your employees take at least 2 weeks off a year.

For all the complaints about the EU they make sure certain things happen to protect people.

irishguy1983

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is a terrible outlook for employment. Most of the discussion is about financial roles and you would hope they are hiring smart people and promoting smart people.

If you aren't promoting the smart ones the pool the senior managers come from must be from the dumb ones who have poor time management.

In IT you want the smart ones who can mentor the team not somebody who's only response is "Can you work longer hours?"

Let me explain a bit more!

Of course you need smart people in management,at the top, etc. However most roles I see are pretty programmed and you are kind of instructed what to do - if you work for a google, linkedin, etc. they will tell you how to manage, how to write an email, etc. this the "google" way of doign things they will say.

Now of course there are some super smart people up top but for the majority of roles (lets say under 50,0000) I don't think you need a genius or anything like that - hence the guy who stays longer will get promoted. I hoep that makes a bit of sense.

Of course for a high paying role where you need someone very smart then they guy who works quicker, smarter, has great ideas will get promoted. My point is that there are few roles like that and most people are just following polocies and procedure of the company!

irishguy1983

ryan101 wrote: »

Hmmmmm, "you don't need smart people in management", sounds like you are perfect Irish management material.

I hopefully explained myself a bit more in last reply

irishguy1983

TheBlock wrote: »

You'll never be stuck for work if you work for free.

I work from 8.30 to 5 daily in a fairly senior management position. I check email from home and will make phone calls if required, nobody contacts me on the phone outside of office hours as they know I won't answer. If it's important email me so it's documented and I will respond out of hours if I deem it is required.
I will work some additional hours due to unforeseen circumstances or to meet particularly tight deadlines but this is as time in lieu and I will take this back when not as busy. In my experience if you have to constantly work late to do your job your doing something wrong and it should be queried. I see a lot of this late work as posturing by some employees to make their positions/themselves seem more important. After 25 years working for some major multinationals I can tell you that at the end of the day it doesn't matter if you work 40 hour weeks or 80 hour weeks if your not producing your gone.

WOW - I have such a different impression of US multinationals but then I have no reason not to believe you.

ryan101

irishguy1983 wrote: »

I hopefully explained myself a bit more in last reply

You did, but I've seen too many bad Irish managers cause untold problems over the years. What you're describing is an administrator of rules and regulations, not a manager, an entirely different animal, whatever their job title might say. Actual managers will often have to make a decisions that are not contained in any manual and interpret a situation. That's when the good managers are weeded out from the bad. Now, the next problem is that smart does not always = good, I've seen some very smart, but morally evil managers. A stupid manager, even if they are a good person, will not make good decisions. Often stupid people are put in middle management, as they can be easily manipulated by senior management to treat people below them badly, in the false notion that gets more work done.
In summary "working long hours = promotion" is very far from clear cut.

whomitconcerns

TheBlock wrote: »

You'll never be stuck for work if you work for free.

I work from 8.30 to 5 daily in a fairly senior management position. I check email from home and will make phone calls if required, nobody contacts me on the phone outside of office hours as they know I won't answer. If it's important email me so it's documented and I will respond out of hours if I deem it is required.
I will work some additional hours due to unforeseen circumstances or to meet particularly tight deadlines but this is as time in lieu and I will take this back when not as busy. In my experience if you have to constantly work late to do your job your doing something wrong and it should be queried. I see a lot of this late work as posturing by some employees to make their positions/themselves seem more important. After 25 years working for some major multinationals I can tell you that at the end of the day it doesn't matter if you work 40 hour weeks or 80 hour weeks if your not producing your gone.

I completely agree with this. I try to get out of the office every day on time, but if I have to stay later I do. I have 17 direct reports under me and I do not expect them to stay after 5 unless there is a pressing reason, and I am happy for them to come in later in the morning to compensate. My only rule on it is "Dont take the pi$$" People working late regularly would certainly not be top of my list for promotion. And I work for a large US multinational

irishguy1983

ryan101 wrote: »

You did, but I've seen too many bad Irish managers cause untold problems over the years. What you're describing is an administrator of rules and regulations, not a manager, an entirely different animal, whatever their job title might say. Actual managers will often have to make a decisions that are not contained in any manual and interpret a situation. That's when the good managers are weeded out from the bad. Now, the next problem is that smart does not always = good, I've seen some very smart, but morally evil managers. A stupid manager, even if they are a good person, will not make good decisions. Often stupid people are put in middle management, as they can be easily manipulated by senior management to treat people below them badly, in the false notion that gets more work done.
In summary "working long hours = promotion" is very far from clear cut.

Totally agree - I just find from what I've seen in US multinationals this tends to be the case for roles that say are around the 40,000/50,000 mark.

I find Managers in US multinationals are simply administrators of rules - they are simply guided on the "google" way so to speak. Again I am referring to guys on around 40,000/50,000. These manager can't really do thinsg outside the box because there is a global way of doing things - i found this in one particualr multinational i worked - the guy has to manage the same way another guy might manage in Argentina as this is the google way!

I would be presuming the guys above 40,000/50,00 that are doing something a bit more special/innovative and not working inside the box so much.