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Need advice on a house share

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  • 08-05-2014 10:08pm
    #1
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭


    I just moved in to a new place on March 24th. It was advertised on daft as a house share with two other people for 5 months possibly more. I was taking over the lease from one of the tenants, they all moved in back in September with a 12 month lease

    I gave the girl moving out the deposit and half the months rent she had already paid. I was supposed to get a receipt and meet the landlord that day but she never turned up so she just gave me her receipt. Now I have just been told that the two other girls living here have broken their lease last week but the letting agency said as they are the last names on the lease we would all have to go and that I have a month, they knew this when I moved in but waited till i had paid the rent before telling me.

    I really like this house and area and don't want to move. Where do I stand? Can they just Terminate the lease early and leave me house hunting again? Do I have any rights in this situation?


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    #2
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Have you signed a lease?
    Who do you have an agreement with?
    Have you been served with notice?

    It sounds like your intention was to take over the lease- but due to the machinations of the others- you've given one of them back their deposit in full- which they weren't entitled to- and haven't paid any rent to the landlord (at all).

    All-in-all, it doesn't sound like you have a lease, or any agreement with the landlord, correct me if I'm wrong- and as such- you have no rights whatsoever.


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    #3
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    The landlord agreed with the last tenant that I could take over her rent but I did not sign anything. Spoke to the landlord and she said she thinks the girls knew all along they would be moving out and have just screwed me over. She said they wont sublet as i am not on the original lease. What a nightmare


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    #4
    DHFrame
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭DHFrame


    Whatever you do. Don't give anyone else any money until you have things on paper and it's to the right person for the right thing under agreements.


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    #5
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    Ok sorry maybe I wasn't clear. There is no problem with money, the landlord has already acknowledged I am owed the security deposit. I just want to stay in the house but the landlord says since my name is not on the lease I have to leave also instead of just advertising for new tenants.


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    #6
    DHFrame
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭DHFrame


    Beez wrote: »
    Ok sorry maybe I wasn't clear. There is no problem with money, the landlord has already acknowledged I am owed the security deposit. I just want to stay in the house but the landlord says since my name is not on the lease I have to leave also instead of just advertising for new tenants.

    Crazy. Why doesn't the landlord just give you a lease? I hate renting. That's why I got out.


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    #7
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    I know, I gave her landlord references going back 9 years and I would be the one finding the tenants. She just said there was no sub letting. It was silly not to get it in writing definitely wont be doing that again. Took me 3 weeks on and off moving house now I have to do it again.

    I am going to see what threshold has to say and if they say I have no rights ill just move, live and learn


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    #8
    DHFrame
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭DHFrame


    Good luck. I hope you resolve it soon.


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    #9
    toughapple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭toughapple


    You can claim part 4 rights as it is more than 6 months since the lease started. You can get new housemates no matter what the landlady says.


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    #10
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    toughapple wrote: »
    You can claim part 4 rights as it is more than 6 months since the lease started. You can get new housemates no matter what the landlady says.

    Without their name on the lease?


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    #11
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    Stheno wrote: »
    Without their name on the lease?

    Yes would love to get this clarified. Some one said to me if the landlord was aware i was taking over the rest of the lease i am technically on it even though I did not sign anything. Waiting for threshold to get back to confirm.


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    #12
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    A tenant cannot reassign the lease, without the express consent of the landlord. If the tenant did this- without proof of the landlord's express consent- you have no foot to stand on (regardless of whether they had an expectation that they could reassign it, or not).


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    #13
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    A tenant cannot reassign the lease, without the express consent of the landlord. If the tenant did this- without proof of the landlord's express consent- you have no foot to stand on (regardless of whether they had an expectation that they could reassign it, or not).

    And technically a deed of reassignment should be drawn up and signed....but this is rarely done in residential tenancy situations.


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    #14
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    A tenant cannot reassign the lease, without the express consent of the landlord. If the tenant did this- without proof of the landlord's express consent- you have no foot to stand on (regardless of whether they had an expectation that they could reassign it, or not).

    Had the express consent of the landlord but I was given nothing in writing. Have I not legally taken over the lease?


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    #15
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Beez wrote: »
    Had the express consent of the landlord but I was given nothing in writing. Have I not legally taken over the lease?

    The person to whom the original lease applied- needed the express consent of the landlord to reassign the lease- not the new leasee. The new leasee- had to be acceptable to the landlord- as indeed, you appear to have been.

    You may argue that you had a verbal agreement to have the lease reassigned to you- but good luck arguing this if it goes to dispute resolutions.

    The original lease holders have treated you in an incredibly shabby manner- however, if the lease is held jointly and severally between all 3 of you- rather than separate leases, then there is precious little you can do.

    You have been there less than 6 months- reassigned lease notwithstanding- and are not entitled to Part 4 rights. If you are being made vacate the tenancy- you are entitled to your deposit back (from the landlord).

    If its a joint lease- it gets messy- as the actions of one person can affect the rights of others.

    Let us know how things fare.


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    #16
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    A tenant cannot reassign the lease, without the express consent of the landlord. If the tenant did this- without proof of the landlord's express consent- you have no foot to stand on (regardless of whether they had an expectation that they could reassign it, or not).
    But if the landlord has accepted rent from the OP, then an agreement has been established. The fact that the OP has also taken over from a tenant who was in the property for more than 6 months passes on any rights that the ex tenant had. Those rights were that the ex tenant had a fixe dterm lease agreement (or part thereof) and had acquired Part 4 rights.

    If the OP made a claim with the PRTB the PRTB would look at all the details and IMHO would come to the conclusion that an assignment had been made, that the OP had a lease agreement.


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    #17
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    OK I rang the actual owner and not the letting agent and she did not even know they are ending the lease! She was well annoyed and said they wont be getting their deposit back if they do leave as its specified in the lease. Is this true legally? She was totally on my side. She said if i find appropriate replacements i can stay and draw up a new lease. But also that if we do all go no deposit means for all of us and i would have to get it back off the girl i replaced. Well she wont even pay outstanding bills so slim chance of that.

    She wants to meet the three of us to discuss the situation.


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    #18
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    Oh christ. Just got a call from landlady (owner) saying that I moved in without her knowledge and if the girls move out they will loose their deposit and I will have to get the deposit off them. This is not what she said to me Saturday she said she she was well aware I was moving in. No proof of anything though :-(


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    #19
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Beez wrote: »
    Oh christ. Just got a call from landlady (owner) saying that I moved in without her knowledge and if the girls move out they will loose their deposit and I will have to get the deposit off them. This is not what she said to me Saturday she said she she was well aware I was moving in. No proof of anything though :-(

    have you got on to the ptrb?

    with unpaid bills and all, i'd say you'll have difficulty getting your deposit back. very messy


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    #20
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    The following is advice I got from somebody. Can anyone confirm this?
    A 12 month fixed term agreement was signed therefore it cannot be broken by a landlord/agent unless the tenant/s are in breach of their obligations.

    A tenant leaving (either with or without notice) does not constitute a full breach of obligations as tenants are permitted to break a lease by an assignment. the only consequence of a failure to assign a lease is the loss of the tenant's deposit and the tenant may be liable for the rent until a replacement has been found. A landlord is under an obligation to minimise any such loss as quickly as possible. The only time the lease could become void is if all tenants leave at the same time.

    This is not so in your case. You have taken over the part of the lease from another tenant. Thus, the landlord/agent cannot evict you. As the other tenant had been living in the property for more than 6 months s/he had acquired Part 4 rights which, in the assignment were also passed on to you.

    Stay put and do not worry. If you receive a Notice of Termination (which must state the reason for the eviction), adviuse the landlord/agent that you will be making a claim with the PRTB for illegal evictioin. Until the PRTB make an adjudication, you may remain in the prooperty. As the PRTB are very slow with adjudication decisions, it could well take 6 months. And in the end, you may be awarded damages for an attempted illegal eviction.

    Furthermore, it is not responsibility to find replacement tenants for the others who are leaving - that is their responsibility. The landlord/agents obviously do not know the law - or they are chancing their are in trying it on, hoping you will give in to their demands.

    If you contact Threshold, they will often write to landlord/agents on a tenant's behalf.


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    #21
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Beez wrote: »
    A 12 month fixed term agreement was signed therefore it cannot be broken by a landlord/agent unless the tenant/s are in breach of their obligations.

    Many tenancy agreements have break clauses built into them- alongside standard rules- principle of which would be an agreement to pay a predetermined amount of rent, in a set format, for the duration of the tenancy.
    Beez wrote: »
    A tenant leaving (either with or without notice) does not constitute a full breach of obligations as tenants are permitted to break a lease by an assignment.

    Not necessarily true. They have to formally seek the permission of the landlord to reassign the lease, and find a replacement tenant satisfactory to the landlord. The landlord cannot unreasonably refuse their request- but they have to make the request formally, regardless.
    Beez wrote: »
    the only consequence of a failure to assign a lease is the loss of the tenant's deposit and the tenant may be liable for the rent until a replacement has been found.

    The tenant could potentially be liable for the rent for the duration of the lease- and in the case of a houseshare, where multiple parties are jointly and severally liable for renting the entire property- the tenant may be liable for the rent for the entire property, not just his or her share. If the other tenants decide not to pay their rent (for whatever reason) and not to vacate the property- muggins number 1 becomes liable for the lot.

    This is why formal houseshares aren't very popular.
    Beez wrote: »
    A landlord is under an obligation to minimise any such loss as quickly as possible.

    Yes. However- there is no definition of 'as quickly as possible'. PRTB cases have said 2-3 months is reasonable- others, 1 month was an unreasonably long period of time. Its pretty much you roll your dice, you take your chance.
    Beez wrote: »
    The only time the lease could become void is if all tenants leave at the same time.

    Nonsense- there are a myriad of reasons a lease may become void.
    Beez wrote: »
    This is not so in your case. You have taken over the part of the lease from another tenant.

    No formally- she didn't. She is for all intents and purposes a squatter. She gave the tenant leaving money- she has signed nothing for the landlord, nor paid the landlord a deposit or rent. She gave money to the departing tenant. If she wants her money back- she will have to chase the departing tenant- as she has no legal standing chasing the landlord- she has no legal relationship with them. Had she signed a lease, a reassignment agreement, paid a deposit- or paid rent- perhaps she might have a case- but, and correct me if I'm wrong- she did none of these things.
    Beez wrote: »
    Thus, the landlord/agent cannot evict you.

    If the tenant(s) is(are) in breach of the lease- the landlord can indeed issue eviction instructions. The actions of one tenant in a joint tenancy agreement- can cause all parties to the agreement to be evicted. Thats the fun of joint and severally, liable, agreements.
    Beez wrote: »
    As the other tenant had been living in the property for more than 6 months s/he had acquired Part 4 rights which, in the assignment were also passed on to you.

    You are reassigning the original lease. The original lease can be reassigned. Rights gained through continued tenancy- are earned by the tenant- not the tenancy itself.
    Beez wrote: »
    Stay put and do not worry.

    Stay put by all means. You may end up in a PRTB adjudication- and it will take time- potentially you could be liable for the rent of the entire property- as it is unlikely the landlord can retenant it, with a non-consenting tenant insitu.
    Beez wrote: »
    If you receive a Notice of Termination (which must state the reason for the eviction), adviuse the landlord/agent that you will be making a claim with the PRTB for illegal evictioin.

    A notice of eviction is not an illegal eviction. You can challenge the notice- by all means- but it is not an illegal eviction in itself.
    Beez wrote: »
    Until the PRTB make an adjudication, you may remain in the prooperty. As the PRTB are very slow with adjudication decisions, it could well take 6 months. And in the end, you may be awarded damages for an attempted illegal eviction.

    Eviction cases have been fast-tracked, even in worse case scenarios- its now typically 8-12 weeks to be heard. A landlord may have to take out a high court order after this- if the tenant chooses to ignore it (which often happens).
    Beez wrote: »
    Furthermore, it is not responsibility to find replacement tenants for the others who are leaving - that is their responsibility. The landlord/agents obviously do not know the law - or they are chancing their are in trying it on, hoping you will give in to their demands.

    Errr- who has offered this advice to you without going through the lease. They could well end up in court. This is why we ban legal advice on this website.
    Beez wrote: »
    If you contact Threshold, they will often write to landlord/agents on a tenant's behalf.

    They rarely write to landlords on behalf of tenants- they offer advice by all means- good luck getting it in writing though.


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    #22
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    snip.

    So in short what would you do in my situation?


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    #23
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Beez wrote: »
    So in short what would you do in my situation?

    Find somewhere else to live


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    #24
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Find somewhere else to live

    agreed chalk it up to bad luck and move on


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    #25
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Beez wrote: »
    So in short what would you do in my situation?

    Move.
    Do your damnest to get your deposit back- but get the hell out of there.


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    #26
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    New development. Just had a meeting with the landlady was pretty heated between the girls and her. I was calm and got her to admit I had permission to move in after showing her text messages. She let me sign the lease. Now i am wondering if this is a good thing. Could i actually stay here now even if the girls move out? Have i shot myself in the foot?


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    #27
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Beez wrote: »
    New development. Just had a meeting with the landlady was pretty heated between the girls and her. I was calm and got her to admit I had permission to move in after showing her text messages. She let me sign the lease. Now i am wondering if this is a good thing. Could i actually stay here now even if the girls move out? Have i shot myself in the foot?

    Signed what lease...a new one with just your name on it? Or a new one with all the names of the existing tenants on it?


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    #28
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    the old existing one with all names on it. she has a copy and so do I. She made me put a note saying that I knew when lease expires.


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    #29
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Beez wrote: »
    New development. Just had a meeting with the landlady was pretty heated between the girls and her. I was calm and got her to admit I had permission to move in after showing her text messages. She let me sign the lease. Now i am wondering if this is a good thing. Could i actually stay here now even if the girls move out? Have i shot myself in the foot?

    From the little you've told us- it sounds like you may very well be the proud sole tenant of the property- and liable to rent the whole place..........

    Remember- its a shared tenancy- so all parties are jointly and severally liable- aka, if the others leave, you're liable for the lot.


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    #30
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Beez wrote: »
    the old existing one with all names on it. she has a copy and so do I. She made me put a note saying that I knew when lease expires.

    That isn't valid. You can't just sign a lease that is already in existence, you are added via a deed of reassignment or a new lease needs to be drawn up.


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    #31
    Beez
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭Beez


    If we are all moving out then surely I have more of a chance of getting my deposit back? Or the right to stay in the house and get more tenants before lease expires at least?


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