New agreement on 33 Hours

teacherhead

SO it seems that we'll only have to be locked in a room together for 28 hours next year... Hardly cause for major celebration

http://www.tui.ie/news-events/new-agreement-on-33-hours.5561.html

TheDriver

Very good news, there was clearly too many staff meetings and planning meetings whole school, this gives plenty of scope for smaller groupings to work away on things.
Only concern I have is the 1-2 staff members who take the mick on this one.....

sitstill

teacherhead wrote: »

SO it seems that we'll only have to be locked in a room together for 28 hours next year... Hardly cause for major celebration

http://www.tui.ie/news-events/new-agreement-on-33-hours.5561.html

It's a start. Hopefully the unions can further chip away at this so that if we must do the 33 hours, they can be spent productively.

km79

sitstill wrote: »

It's a start. Hopefully the unions can further chip away at this so that if we must do the 33 hours, they can be spent productively.

I'm just hoping it's not a trade off for a cave in on new JC
That's my guy feeling on it .....

linguist

I have to say that as an extra-curricular stalwart (diehard?), I'm decidedly underwhelmed. As The Driver implies, good luck tracking down the usual suspects who'll always have an excuse to leave early on this or that day whilst the rest of us are struggling to fit this around debates, sport, extra help for Art portfolios, practical work, language mock orals, the school show... What is needed is for the various 'partners' in education to stand up to the teacher bashers, stand by the vast amounts of extra time being given by teachers and then secure a minimum commitment from the teach and go brigade to these 33 hours.

km79

linguist wrote: »

I have to say that as an extra-curricular stalwart (diehard?), I'm decidedly underwhelmed. As The Driver implies, good luck tracking down the usual suspects who'll always have an excuse to leave early on this or that day whilst the rest of us are struggling to fit this around debates, sport, extra help for Art portfolios, practical work, language mock orals, the school show... What is needed is for the various 'partners' in education to stand up to the teacher bashers, stand by the vast amounts of extra time being given by teachers and then secure a minimum commitment from the teach and go brigade to these 33 hours.

I'm withdrawing from extra curr this year. Its something I love doing and really resent having to withdraw BUT I can't find the time or energy anymore. Having to rearrange your supervision on the day of a match is a pain in the ass. And in our place its mostly the same people doing extra curr who are now stuck in supervision and a lot are feeling the same as me.
As far as I'm concerned if I'm gone to a match over break time and/or lunch then I am supervising......but there is no allowance for this. So I have to run around looking for a swap (usually at break time as I've no other time to run around) as well as all the other originization that goes with the match.
Something needs to give..... In my case it will unfortunately be an aspect of school life I value and enjoy. But its voluntary and other parts are no longer ........

Powerhouse

km79 wrote: »

I'm withdrawing from extra curr this year. Its something I love doing and really resent having to withdraw BUT I can't find the time or energy anymore.

I have more or less decided that I will withdraw from extra-curricular next year as well. But I was supervising a class yesterday and met a couple of lovely students whom I wouldn't know in the first place only for extra-curricular. That made me reconsider somewhat a decision I had more or less reconciled myself to having made already.

It'd be hard to replace that aspect of school life as generally you'll meet the nicest students - the ones who habitually cause trouble and tell you to fcuk off etc. will have no interest in doing anything extra-curricular anyway so there is a certain bonus in that area.

But at the same time it is a resentment to have to sit in a load of pointless box-ticking meetings and then provide a further voluntary commitment on top of that.

km79

Powerhouse wrote: »

I have more or less decided that I will withdraw from extra-curricular next year as well. But I was supervising a class yesterday and met a couple of lovely students whom I wouldn't know in the first place only for extra-curricular. That made me reconsider somewhat a decision I had more or less reconciled myself to having made already.

It'd be hard to replace that aspect of school life as generally you'll meet the nicest students - the ones who habitually cause trouble and tell you to fcuk off etc. will have no interest in doing anything extra-curricular anyway so there is a certain bonus in that area.

But at the same time it is a resentment to have to sit in a load of pointless box-ticking meetings and then provide a further voluntary commitment on top of that.

I agree 100%
We have a massive school so I find sport an excellent way to get to know students and I don't teach and even some that I do.
But I found this year incredibly tough to find time for everything. I would have opted out of s and s and continued with extra curr. In effect I would have paid for the privilege of training teams. But I did not have the option of the opt out.
So I am definitely taken at least a year out ........

evolving_doors

linguist wrote: »

I have to say that as an extra-curricular stalwart (diehard?), I'm decidedly underwhelmed. As The Driver implies, good luck tracking down the usual suspects who'll always have an excuse to leave early on this or that day whilst the rest of us are struggling to fit this around debates, sport, extra help for Art portfolios, practical work, language mock orals, the school show... What is needed is for the various 'partners' in education to stand up to the teacher bashers, stand by the vast amounts of extra time being given by teachers and then secure a minimum commitment from the teach and go brigade to these 33 hours.

Whats wrong with teaching and going? I do extra curricular but id never have slighted any other teacher for doing their job. Its bad enough that teachers have to specialise in at least two subjects in this country to secure any work, then have to work at home after work, and all the other stuff thats outside our remit of teaching. Other countries pay for extra curricular.
Theres also family circumstances that other colleagues aren't cognizant of. It's easy for some folk to be in school till late any evening/weekend they wish but that ain't going to help put my kids to bed. So teaching (or as other folk might say ' doing your job') and going is not optional.

teacherhead

Is it a big issue in your schools with people dossing off the cp hours

TheDriver

Yes for some teachers but majority comply 100%. And it can lead to frustration amongst those teachers.

teacherhead

Yeah it's a non issue really with us. Two of ours started this nonsense of having 'appointments' which coincided with the cp meetings. Day after they came in saying sorry it was unavoidable etc.

I told them not to worry but I would have appreciated being told before the meeting. I also mentioned that any hours not used could be put towards s/s later in the year if needed - look on the faces was priceless.

linguist

A couple of things in answer to Armelodie's question. Part of the reason extra-curricular commitment is disproportionately done by non-permanent teachers is because it's seen as one of the key elements of securing tenure. There is an equally unfair assumption made that such mainly young teachers' lives outside school are less important just because they may not have family commitments etc.

I believe that every teacher can make an extra-curricular commitment should they want to. It is possible to run an activity over lunchtime for example, as quite a few colleagues I've worked with have done very well. Once you get your new timetable, you can identify the days that you've a period off before or after lunch and you can always put in a timetable request to that effect before the summer if you want to. I know that the extra S&S commitment hasn't made this easier. Incidentally, the reason most Dublin schools are closed on Wednesday afternoons is because that was traditionally the extra-curricular afternoon.

The central point that I am making is that teachers who do extra-curricular activities after school should be allowed to write these off against Croke Park. So should teachers doing additional study/CPD/actively engaging in subject associations etc. There has to be some way of rewarding those who put a lot in instead of having us almost being ashamed to draw attention to it for fear of hurting the sensitivities of those who can't - or claim they can't.

implausible

A badly needed step in the right direction, but I'm disappointed it's only 5 hours. Sure, a Saturday course organised by a subject association could have it gone in one day. INOTE are running a conference at the end of Sept, I wonder will that count.

TheDriver

the problem I see coming down the line is who certifies what can be used. Lets say teacher A comes in on a Monday morning saying they planned stuff for 5 hours at the weekend and who am I to tackle them on it because teacher B doesn't even do planning but can use 5 hours for training........etc etc etc.
I would think that unless its a certified attendance at a course, its something that would have to be done in school

acequion

linguist wrote: »

A couple of things in answer to Armelodie's question. Part of the reason extra-curricular commitment is disproportionately done by non-permanent teachers is because it's seen as one of the key elements of securing tenure. There is an equally unfair assumption made that such mainly young teachers' lives outside school are less important just because they may not have family commitments etc.

I believe that every teacher can make an extra-curricular commitment should they want to. It is possible to run an activity over lunchtime for example, as quite a few colleagues I've worked with have done very well. Once you get your new timetable, you can identify the days that you've a period off before or after lunch and you can always put in a timetable request to that effect before the summer if you want to. I know that the extra S&S commitment hasn't made this easier. Incidentally, the reason most Dublin schools are closed on Wednesday afternoons is because that was traditionally the extra-curricular afternoon.

The central point that I am making is that teachers who do extra-curricular activities after school should be allowed to write these off against Croke Park. So should teachers doing additional study/CPD/actively engaging in subject associations etc. There has to be some way of rewarding those who put a lot in instead of having us almost being ashamed to draw attention to it for fear of hurting the sensitivities of those who can't - or claim they can't.

Are you for real?? With provocative statements like "the teach and go brigade" and "every teacher can make an extra curricular commitment should they want to" you imply that those of us who "teach and go" ie generally go home and spend further hours on prep and corrections, are somehow remiss!! Just what problem do you have with people who choose not to do unpaid work?

I have nothing against those who choose to do unpaid extra curricular,though I'm uncomfortable about it in the present extremely pressurised climate and one of the reasons I'm uncomfortable is because there are people like you who would have everyone forced into it. Some people don't want to have to dedicate every last drop of energy to their jobs and that SHOULD be respected. As Armelodie pointed out,in other countries teachers teach.If they want to do extra they are paid and proper order!

I'm glad that the union have won some flexibility with 5 of the 33 hours, glad for those who do extra curricular,but worried as to what that will mean for those who don't.Personally I'd be happy to do extra classes,as I'm more curricular than extra,so hopefully flexible will mean just that.

teacherhead

I would think that the hours will still need to be done in school time or after school but there will be flexibility in when they are delivered. I would expect that the principal should get prior notification and should be CC's the minutes with an attendance attached. it's the only fair way I can see.

I do think that they could have given another 5 hours for individual in-service with certified attendance by PDST or the education centre concerned.

if some people are seen not to be doing the hours there will be all sorts of issues and resentment.

teacherhead

acequion wrote: »

Are you for real?? With provocative statements like "the teach and go brigade" and "every teacher can make an extra curricular commitment should they want to" you imply that those of us who "teach and go" ie generally go home and spend further hours on prep and corrections, are somehow remiss!! Just what problem do you have with people who choose not to do unpaid work?

I have nothing against those who choose to do unpaid extra curricular,though I'm uncomfortable about it in the present extremely pressurised climate and one of the reasons I'm uncomfortable is because there are people like you who would have everyone forced into it. Some people don't want to have to dedicate every last drop of energy to their jobs and that SHOULD be respected. As Armelodie pointed out,in other countries teachers teach.If they want to do extra they are paid and proper order!

I'm glad that the union have won some flexibility with 5 of the 33 hours, glad for those who do extra curricular,but worried as to what that will mean for those who don't.Personally I'd be happy to do extra classes,as I'm more curricular than extra,so hopefully flexible will mean just that.

I think that everyone should be prepared to accept that some teachers only want to do their teaching, they don't want to do extra curricular or get into management etc. That is a personal choice and should be respected.

I also think, however, that all teachers should give a bit back to the school if they can and help out with things like open evenings and graduations etc.

km79

I'm glad that the union have won some flexibility with 5 of the 33 hours, glad for those who do extra curricular,but worried as to what that will mean for those who don't.Personally I'd be happy to do extra classes,as I'm more curricular than extra,so hopefully flexible will mean just that.[/quote]
These hours can not be used for extra curr........

teacherhead

km79 wrote: »

I'm glad that the union have won some flexibility with 5 of the 33 hours, glad for those who do extra curricular,but worried as to what that will mean for those who don't.Personally I'd be happy to do extra classes,as I'm more curricular than extra,so hopefully flexible will mean just that.

These hours can not be used for extra curr........[/QUOTE]

The TUI and ASTI have reached a new agreement with the Department of Education and Skills on the usage of the 33 hours. This follows representations made by the unions.
The new arrangement allows for five of the 33 hours to be used for planning and development work other than on a whole school/staff basis. The requirement that the 33 hours be done in blocks of one or two hours will not apply to the five hours which can be done in blocks of 30 minutes or more. In addition, the five hours can be done at any time other than class contact and S&S timetabled time.
The Department will issue a Circular outlining the new arrangement on Monday, May 12th. Please check the TUI website for the Circular and for further information on the new arrangement on Monday.

From TUI website. no mention of extracurricular. all school planning. perfectly suited to subject planning I would think.

km79

teacherhead wrote: »

These hours can not be used for extra curr........

The TUI and ASTI have reached a new agreement with the Department of Education and Skills on the usage of the 33 hours. This follows representations made by the unions.
The new arrangement allows for five of the 33 hours to be used for planning and development work other than on a whole school/staff basis. The requirement that the 33 hours be done in blocks of one or two hours will not apply to the five hours which can be done in blocks of 30 minutes or more. In addition, the five hours can be done at any time other than class contact and S&S timetabled time.
The Department will issue a Circular outlining the new arrangement on Monday, May 12th. Please check the TUI website for the Circular and for further information on the new arrangement on Monday.

From TUI website. no mention of extracurricular. all school planning. perfectly suited to subject planning I would think.[/quote]
I seem to have included the persons quote I was responding to as my own :O
They certainly can't be used for extra curr sadly

km79

The quoting system seems to be acting weird actually!

teacherhead

yeah its not right

acequion

teacherhead wrote: »

I think that everyone should be prepared to accept that some teachers only want to do their teaching, they don't want to do extra curricular or get into management etc. That is a personal choice and should be respected.

I also think, however, that all teachers should give a bit back to the school if they can and help out with things like open evenings and graduations etc.

Thank you teacherhead for validating my point. However I don't agree with your "however" I really don't see why any teacher should feel any "I owe you" to the school or to anybody. Teachers fulfil their contractual requirements and there really should be no discussion above and beyond that,as in any other organisation,for any other worker.Sorry but simple as. Obviously,I'm well aware that there are all sorts of grey areas and again,as in any organisation,there will always be those who do more,for all sorts of reasons. And indeed, the majority of teachers go above and beyond the call of duty in lots of small ways that school managers don't even get to hear about.

So, open day and graduation is exactly the same as any other extra curricular activity. There should be no obligation either implicit or explicit on any teacher to participate unless there's payment involved. Things are bad enough with pay and conditions nowadays, so I feel very strongly that there should be a clear line between contractual,remunerated obligations and non. And no such thing as "giving back". How about the other way round? ie school,DES,pupils "give back" to teachers? I don't think so,says all! Works both ways.

teacherhead

acequion wrote: »

Thank you teacherhead for validating my point. However I don't agree with your "however" I really don't see why any teacher should feel any "I owe you" to the school or to anybody. Teachers fulfil their contractual requirements and there really should be no discussion above and beyond that,as in any other organisation,for any other worker.Sorry but simple as. Obviously,I'm well aware that there are all sorts of grey areas and again,as in any organisation,there will always be those who do more,for all sorts of reasons. And indeed, the majority of teachers go above and beyond the call of duty in lots of small ways that school managers don't even get to hear about.

So, open day and graduation is exactly the same as any other extra curricular activity. There should be no obligation either implicit or explicit on any teacher to participate unless there's payment involved. Things are bad enough with pay and conditions nowadays, so I feel very strongly that there should be a clear line between contractual,remunerated obligations and non. And no such thing as "giving back". How about the other way round? ie school,DES,pupils "give back" to teachers? I don't think so,says all! Works both ways.

That's all well and good until your numbers fall and you're left with a small staff, redeployment and students who don't want to be there. If you're not interested in and enthusiastic about your school I would be concerned.

People who work in all sectors promote their employers business formally and informally all the time. They want their business to succeed. I think if a graduation ceremony or open night have been part of a schools way of doing things for years that they should remain as such. I'm not interested in getting people to work themselves to the bone every day but I think some perspective is necessary too. There are some things that are necessary and should be done.

How do you suggest pupils give back? I get cards every year from pupils and parents. Most of the students say thanks at the end of every class. Do you want them to put a 50 in an envelope?

acequion

teacherhead wrote: »

That's all well and good until your numbers fall and you're left with a small staff, redeployment and students who don't want to be there. If you're not interested in and enthusiastic about your school I would be concerned.

People who work in all sectors promote their employers business formally and informally all the time. They want their business to succeed. I think if a graduation ceremony or open night have been part of a schools way of doing things for years that they should remain as such. I'm not interested in getting people to work themselves to the bone every day but I think some perspective is necessary too. There are some things that are necessary and should be done.

How do you suggest pupils give back? I get cards every year from pupils and parents. Most of the students say thanks at the end of every class. Do you want them to put a 50 in an envelope?

teacherhead,I'm not for one minute suggesting that pupils should give back.My whole point is no body should feel that anything needs to be given back.That said,it is lovely when a student [without the slightest feeling of pressure] gives a card to say thanks, likewise the teacher or teachers who help out without feeling obligated.And many do that kind of thing all the time. And long may that continue as it shows mutual support and appreciation.

But teacherhead,you're describing the very business model which has no place in teaching,ie people helping out the businesses they work in.However, I do completely see your point, as in the small school facing closure and re-deployments. There are no easy answers to that one.

Chancer3001

It's 5 hours to go plan your classes.

5 hours less we have to sit in a room together wasting time.

Great.

5 hours a year to plan your classes....

Most people probably do 5 hours a week at the very very minimum.

losullivan

I've given hours and hours to extra curricular in the past but I never judged those who didn't because I was too busy doing what I loved. Being unwilling to do unpaid work does not make you some kind of chancer! I continue to do some extra curricular but I've seriously cut back for the sake of my own sanity.The constant attacks to my pay coupled with the Croke Park detention has eroded my goodwill.

As for the five hours-The vast majority of teachers easily spend five hours and more planning their individual lessons and correcting during their free time every week and yet,we get no recognition for this work under the HRA. It's time for teachers to get creative about the use of these onerous CP hours...

Icsics

Can these hours be used for CPD or will they have to be done in school? Looks like they're intended for subject planning, but what about all the courses/subject meetings on in the evenings or Sats?

acequion

Unless,the DES are actually making a start on crediting the hundreds of yearly hours done on our own prep,these five hours are nothing more than a red herring. And will probably be an even bigger pain in the ass than how the 33 hours are currently done.

Let's face it,those 33 hours are bureaucratisation,pure and simple. And nothing less than scrapping them should be acceptable to the union.

seavill

Some schools already give cp hours credit for cpd (unofficially of course)

km79

It sounded too good to be true.........sounds like more of the same

Icsics

It is exactly more of the same....we've had all 5 hours timetabled for school planning / evaluation & improvement....

km79

Icsics wrote: »

It is exactly more of the same....we've had all 5 hours timetabled for school planning / evaluation & improvement....

At what times ? If its a case of having to come in say half hour before school then its actually worse not better!

Icsics

After school, some until 5.30

km79

Icsics wrote: »

After school, some until 5.30

But the whole point of this big "breakthrough" is the 5 hours can be done inside school time?

Icsics

I don't think so km79, the 'breakthrough' is that it doesn't have to be whole school & can be blocked in smaller slots, like 30 mins. Unless I'm missing something?

km79

Icsics wrote: »

I don't think so km79, the 'breakthrough' is that it doesn't have to be whole school & can be blocked in smaller slots, like 30 mins. Unless I'm missing something?

It says it can be done at anytime other than class contact and designated s and s times.
However the reason I'm interested is I don't think its workable . and its all pure spin.
There is no way everyone in a subject dept would have same class off...so that leaves after school or as I mentioned earlier before school!!!! So we could now end up with early and late days,.......I hope I'm wrong but I'm deeply deeply suspicious of this ........

Icsics

Yeah, no way our boss would facilitate that, he likes us all around the table so he can take a roll!!!!!

km79

Icsics wrote: »

Yeah, no way our boss would facilitate that, he likes us all around the table so he can take a roll!!!!!

Hours are meant to be agreed in consultation with staff. That sounds unfair......

Pwpane

km79 wrote: »

It says it can be done at anytime other than class contact and designated s and s times.
However the reason I'm interested is I don't think its workable . and its all pure spin.
There is no way everyone in a subject dept would have same class off...so that leaves after school or as I mentioned earlier before school!!!! So we could now end up with early and late days,.......I hope I'm wrong but I'm deeply deeply suspicious of this ........

Our subject dept meeting are always at lunchtime, usually for 40 mins.

Now we can subtract them from the CP hours. Not too bad.

Note that the verification document looks for subject matter discussed, an action plan and the list of those present.

I haven't done evening or Sat CPD for a long time. I might have considered it, if it was included.

acequion

I can see no advantage whatsoever. Same thing,swings and roundabouts really. It just goes to show how totally our employer dismisses our concerns. We had to do CP hours yesterday and it was an utter and total waste of two hours,all of us sitting in a room talking shte.

I will never stop resenting that imposition. Those hours are punitive,counter productive and family unfriendly. We're just clocking in time while our kids remain with the child minders and for what??

Chancer3001

These 5 hours will be great if we have an understanding principal.

Here's my example.

My, and two other teachers "meet" on a Saturday and "discuss updating schemes of work".

We talk about areas for improvement, adding in numeracy and literacy and what needs to be done next year.

That's planning and development. It lasts an hour.

I fill out the sheet and hand it to the principal.

Best thing is, the meeting never even happened.

TheDriver

Chancer3001 wrote: »

These 5 hours will be great if we have an understanding principal.

Here's my example.

My, and two other teachers "meet" on a Saturday and "discuss updating schemes of work".

We talk about areas for improvement, adding in numeracy and literacy and what needs to be done next year.

That's planning and development. It lasts an hour.

I fill out the sheet and hand it to the principal.

Best thing is, the meeting never even happened.

And that's the problem-schemes to get out of even doing the 5 hours, next year people don't bother filling out the forms and then suddenly some people do the 5 hours, some people don't.

Chancer3001

Better than everybody doing them.

They're a waste of time.

Most people will have 5 hours of meetings a year anyways.

evolving_doors

Any schools here frontloading the CP hours to the end of august/start of new school year?

(dont give specifics!)

Boober Fraggle

Armelodie wrote: »

Any schools here frontloading the CP hours to the end of august/start of new school year?

Yes. Full day 25th August.

sitstill

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

Yes. Full day 25th August.

Yeah same as that!

acequion

And same for us.

km79

And us . No word yet on how 5 hours will operate

RH149

Wouldn't mind Aug 25th.....we haven't had our meeting yet to decide on it yet but there's been talk of Thurs 21st... I think we have to start on Aug 22nd even if we don't add on CP hrs before that.