BABYMETAL

Dublin Red Devil

I'd love to see the look on the faces of these hardcore, tough Iron Maiden and Slayer guys when a group of cute Japanese girls rock the main stage at Sonisphere.

Links234

lord lucan wrote: »

Mod hat off, I don't get it at all, it's far removed from metal as far as I'm concerned. Nothing to do with insecurity or narrow mindness but I do know what metal is and this is not metal. Sounds like something Louis Walsh or Simon Cowell would put together when they spot a gap in the market.

Ignoring the vocals for a moment, the music is clearly metal, the heavy distorted guitar, double bass drumming, the speed at which they play, everything about it is metal. All the musicians involved are serious metal musicians. It's a bit by the numbers metal and may not be particularly original or innovative, but that could easily be said of a lot of bands that are posted about on here. Look them up on wikipedia, the genres are metal, they've been featured in many major metal publications, they've been playing metal festivals and touring with metal bands... They toured with the excellent Chthonic, who recently supported Satyricon when they played in Dublin. They're being touted by other famous metal bands and musicians. It's not like they were posted about here by accident.

Yes, they're a particularly cynical manufactured group, it's especially telling when you know that the three singers never listened to metal before the group was put together. That's not really in question, and I don't think anyone is disputing them being a manufactured band, but rock and metal aren't free from manufactured bands either.

Are they a manufactured metal band? Sure, but they're still a metal band.

Dublin Red Devil

lord lucan wrote: »

Mod hat off, I don't get it at all, it's far removed from metal as far as I'm concerned. Nothing to do with insecurity or narrow mindness but I do know what metal is and this is not metal. Sounds like something Louis Walsh or Simon Cowell would put together when they spot a gap in the market.

You don't have top 'Get it' Allot of people won't. That's fine, each to their own. Nobody said it was conventional Metal, It's a Japanese sub-genre, A fusion of Japanese heavy metal and Japanese pop music.

Nobody is trying to convert anyone to BABYMETAL. If posters like them, Great, If they don't, That's fine too. Just don't use this forum as a means to ridicule people for liking something, just because you don't like it.

spiritcrusher

I have to say I think the argument of complaining about "elitists" and "you don't like it, don't comment" is becoming as tired as the arguments for metal needing to stay underground or people being militant with their own tastes in genres or sub-genres. I just find any time people who would have an ear to the underground scenes disagree with those who have a more mainstream taste the elitist argument is trotted out. In some cases it is certainly a valid argument, in some cases it's needlessly defensive and stifles discussion. This is definitely one of those cases as I've listened to some of the songs posted here and it definitely blurs the line regarding what you want to classify as metal.
This may have distorted guitars, double-bass drums, speed etc. but in my opinion there's a lot more to metal than that. Really good metal, for me, regardless of sub-type has an attitude or a swagger about it, or maybe an atmosphere or an aesthetic... Just something that hits you in the gut (if that makes any sense). I just hear nothing but a bland, plastic, cut'n'paste job in this band that will be forgotten about in a year or so. Which to me sounds like straightforward pop music just with a distorted backing track.

Anyway, I hope I haven't gone too off topic (maybe this should be its own topic) I just felt that the elitist argument goes unchallenged too often and honestly it's as vacuous and poor an argument as saying "bull sh*t, not real metal". And for what it's worth, I've no interest in what music others listen to, nor do I care what people want to label as metal but I think it's an interesting discussion.

beauf

There's no love of the genre or music here. Its cynical commercialisation. If you like it grand. But that doesn't change what it is, or isn't.

Dublin Red Devil

beauf wrote: »

There's no love of the genre or music here. Its cynical commercialisation. If you like it grand. But that doesn't change what it is, or isn't.

Again that's just your opinion, We obviously have different interpretations of what it is and what it isn't.

Here's an interesting video

Dublin Red Devil

Give this one a watch aswell

MagicMarker

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

I'd love to see the look on the faces of these hardcore, tough Iron Maiden and Slayer guys when a group of cute Japanese girls rock the main stage at Sonisphere.

Here's a preview.



Seems to be a metal band fronted by the japanese Sugarbabes. According to wiki the girls didn't even know what metal was.

Woeful stuff altogether.

Dublin Red Devil

Hey! Sometimes it good to have ones mind blown, once in a while. Makes you question what you think of something. Yes that may be the initial reaction on many to them. But the more progressive listener's next reaction might be, " It's weird, but I kind of like it". Sure there will be the naysayers out there, The Music snobs who will say " The're a joke or They don't belong here" But others will think its awesome and be introduced to a whole new sub-genre of metal music.

MagicMarker

Ah yes, the "progressive" listeners might like it... And of course anyone who doesn't like it must be a music snob.

The only thing worse than a music snob is a fanboy.

lord lucan

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Hey! Sometimes it good to have ones mind blown, once in a while.

My mind was blown but probably not in the same way yours was. I don't see it as a sub genre of metal,frankly it's pop with some nods to metal. I'm not being snobby or elitist about it but it's how i see it. Sure i'm into old school stuff but i'll give any new guitar music a chance but that just doesn't come anywhere near floating my boat.

Dublin Red Devil

MagicMarker wrote: »

Ah yes, the "progressive" listeners might like it... And of course anyone who doesn't like it must be a music snob.

The only thing worse than a music snob is a fanboy.

No that's not what I mean. You don't have to like BABYMETAL. If you don'y like them, state your opinion if you wish and move on. Don't be a snob about it and try to push your views on people who happen to like something you don't

You are not the moral arbiter on what's good music and what isn't

I happen to think the extreme Metal style of Cradle of Filth is not for me. But I'm not on threads about them, Telling their fans the their "awful" or "Thats not real music"

stefan idiot jones

I'll sum up my feelings in a short one sentence statement. Read into it what you will.

'I'm going to see High On Fire in July'.

beauf

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Again that's just your opinion, We obviously have different interpretations of what it is and what it isn't....

Er no. Its fact this is a product (even in in your own link) that was put together not for the love of the music. But to sell. There's no ambiguity here.

Its the Soylent green of music. You might be happy to ignore the wider implications of stuff like this. But I'm not. If someone creates a thread for discussion, they can't expect everyone to agree with them. Negative comments are as valid as positive ones.

Dublin Red Devil

beauf wrote: »

Er no. Its fact this is a product (even in in your own link) that was put together not for the love of the music. But to sell. There's no ambiguity here.

Who said they weren't put together?
Every band wants to sell records, sell out shows etc. You really think Metalica play giggs for the good of their health or "for the love of the music"

beauf wrote: »

Its the Soylent green of music. You might be happy to ignore the wider implications of stuff like this. But I'm not. If someone creates a thread for discussion, they can't expect everyone to agree with them. Negative comments are as valid as positive ones.

Oh please! "Wider implications"? Yeah! BABYMETAL are going to ruin metal. This is the end.

endacl

OK. That's it. A thirty year story finds it's epilogue in this thread. It the ripe old age of 40, it's happened. I've given up on metal.



I remember my neighbour, Steve (thanks Steve!) making me a copy of Number of the Beast when I was 10. All because I said his Maiden back patch looked cool. He didn't have to - I was only 10. Definitely not cool, but Steve nurtured my nascent interest. I remember wearing that tape out, and pestering Steve for more. He kindly obliged. I remember saving money every week for my own albums. I remember Metallica in the Top Hat. I remember discovering amazing bands whose albums I bought purely on the recommendation of their cover art. I remember learning guitar and bands in garages that still haven't taken the world by storm - we were so so sure they would... I remember spending my teenage years in the Devil's Triangle that existed between the Sound Cellar, Bruxelles and McGonagles. I remember seeing practically every single metal band that came to Dublin from the late 80's on (yeah. Even Deicide). I remember being ever so slightly taken aback by the emergence of nu-metal, and by the fact that people I liked and respected seem to be taking it seriously. That passed, thank Beelzebub. I have a lot of happy happy memories!

Then I open this thread, see what it's about, and read posts from folks who really should know better, validating this shyte. For shame, metal community of boards.ie! For shame...

Hang your heads. Hang them low.

beauf

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Who said they weren't put together?

You said it was my "interpretation" & "opinion"

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Every band wants to sell records, sell out shows etc. You really think Metalica play giggs for the good of their health or "for the love of the music"

There's a world of a difference between what and why Metallica do and this. It doesn't need explaining.

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Oh please! "Wider implications"? Yeah! BABYMETAL are going to ruin metal. This is the end.

TBH I was thinking of possibilities a little less hysterical. Things like this are like the death of thousand paper cuts. Over time they have impact. Slow gradual movements. Maybe you like the impact the music factories have on the wider music industry. Great. I'm not a fan though. Never mind the use of children to do it.

You have no interest in the back-story. For me its all about the back-story. I'm not making any value judgement on your opinion. Just expressing my own.

stefan idiot jones

The clue is in the name 'Babymetal'.

A joke I heard over twenty years ago could very well have been written for this abomination.

Q.What has two hundred legs and no pubes?

A.The front row of a Bros concert.

Dublin Red Devil

Actually I honestly don't care about the negative opinion anymore. I'm not going to continue these pointless arguments.

I think they are awesome. Whoever the guys on instrumentals are they are absolutely unreal, especially on Ijime Dame Zettai. Say what you like about Suzuka Nakamoto, But she is an amazing vocalist The fact that she is 16 makes her talent more impressive, phenomenal on Akatsuki. Yui and Moa are awesome aswell, rocked it on Onedari Daisakusen. Combine these 3 elements and you have a band called BABYMETAL, and I love it :P

MagicMarker

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

But she is an amazing vocalist

Na.

slavetothegrind

about as valid as linda martin singing lead for metallica

and just as creepy to watch.

other videos in the genre are almost crossing a line.......

each to their own but for me , no.

stefan idiot jones

私は、『バービー』人形少女。

Dublin Red Devil

Links234 wrote: »

Oh don't get me wrong, I've had people tell me I'm obsessed with Japan (A claim I can't exactly deny) and as far as live shows go, it looks like they'll put on a stormer of one and I'd actually love to see them live just for the show... It's just, I kinda gripe about them because I'm a huge fan of Japanese metal, and I think there is just so many awesome bands there with amazing talent, and it's Babymetal that people have taken notice of?

Also, I'm 95% sure that one of the guitarists in the Leda from Deluhi/Undivide, who is easily one of my favourite guitarists, if not my favourite ever, and I'm kinda disappointed because the music is all a bit on the bland side. The other guitarist is Marty Friedman's touring guitarist. Like, there's some serious talent there, that's for sure.

But honestly, they do have their moments and this is definitely one of their better tracks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjQsayrmMoU

Yeah love that song. Suzuka does an great job on the vocal.

Dublin Red Devil

Check out this guys unique take on Megitsune

Links234

spiritcrusher wrote: »

This may have distorted guitars, double-bass drums, speed etc. but in my opinion there's a lot more to metal than that. Really good metal, for me, regardless of sub-type has an attitude or a swagger about it, or maybe an atmosphere or an aesthetic... Just something that hits you in the gut (if that makes any sense).

But what you're doing here is you're refering to intangible elements that aren't even specific to a genre, it's subjective and will vary from listener to listener. Metal is something that hits you in the gut? So what if for someone, Slayer doesn't hit them in the gut, do they cease to be metal in that case, or is it metal that this particular person doesn't like?

I've seen an extraordinary amount of this sort of genre-policing over the years, from people saying that it's not metal for a band to incorporate keyboards, that bands like Nightwish etc aren't metal because of women singing, that Rammstein isn't metal and so on... Reading a recent interview with Cynic, they recalled how when they first started out they were being boo'd and told to get off the stage when supporting Cannibal Corpse. The amount of **** people were giving fans of nu-metal at the time when it was popular was unreal, a lot of the criticism of the bands may have been valid, but the vitriol aimed at the fans was not. And for what? I know a lot of metal fans today whose introduction to the genre was through mainstream bands. There's quite a few bands from the 'nu-metal' scene that were actually pretty good and stuck around, I'd say Korn are pretty much a metal mainstay at this stage.

Hell, I loved Korn when they first came out, but as I got more into heavier bands, I felt embarrassed about listening to them because of the hate for nu-metal, so I went and sold off my Korn albums. I was kicking myself and I hated that I was made feel that way, because I only went and bought them all over again years later. Maybe it was a lesson in just liking what I like and never feeling ashamed of it, but it was still a bad experience.

Do I like Babymetal?
No, not really. I've been pretty critical of them, I think there's far better J-pop and far better metal, they're somewhat less than the sum of their parts, especially considering the talent of the musicians involved in the band. I dislike that for all the talent and innovation in the Japanese metal scene, that it's this group that gets noticed internationally to such a huge degree. I also think they're a novelty act and will fade away when the novelty wears off. But they're still metal.

Are they a manufactured metal band? Oh you betcha, but if you think that there were no manufactured bands in metal before Babymetal, you'd be wrong. Nor are they the only band out for money, if you've ever read an interview with Gene Simmons, you'd know what Kiss are all about, but they're still a great band and put on one of the best concerts I've seen, nobody would think to say they don't belong on this forum. Then there's Dethklok, a manufactured metal band put together by a TV network as a tie-in with a cartoon, you could point to them and say it's a cynical money making promotion by Adult Swin. The biggest difference between them and Babymetal though is that Dethklok make better music.

The other thing I'd say is that mixing genres can be fantastic. There's some terrific bands that mix all sorts of influences into their music, folk metal, bands who incorporate electronic elements, sometimes genre blending works and sometimes it doesn't, but I love that it's something metal tries. It's a very diverse style of music, and all the stronger for it.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

ladybeard's where it's at

spiritcrusher

Links234 wrote: »

But what you're doing here is you're refering to intangible elements that aren't even specific to a genre, it's subjective and will vary from listener to listener. Metal is something that hits you in the gut? So what if for someone, Slayer doesn't hit them in the gut, do they cease to be metal in that case, or is it metal that this particular person doesn't like?

I've seen an extraordinary amount of this sort of genre-policing over the years, from people saying that it's not metal for a band to incorporate keyboards, that bands like Nightwish etc aren't metal because of women singing, that Rammstein isn't metal and so on... Reading a recent interview with Cynic, they recalled how when they first started out they were being boo'd and told to get off the stage when supporting Cannibal Corpse. The amount of **** people were giving fans of nu-metal at the time when it was popular was unreal, a lot of the criticism of the bands may have been valid, but the vitriol aimed at the fans was not. And for what? I know a lot of metal fans today whose introduction to the genre was through mainstream bands. There's quite a few bands from the 'nu-metal' scene that were actually pretty good and stuck around, I'd say Korn are pretty much a metal mainstay at this stage.

Hell, I loved Korn when they first came out, but as I got more into heavier bands, I felt embarrassed about listening to them because of the hate for nu-metal, so I went and sold off my Korn albums. I was kicking myself and I hated that I was made feel that way, because I only went and bought them all over again years later. Maybe it was a lesson in just liking what I like and never feeling ashamed of it, but it was still a bad experience.

Do I like Babymetal?
No, not really. I've been pretty critical of them, I think there's far better J-pop and far better metal, they're somewhat less than the sum of their parts, especially considering the talent of the musicians involved in the band. I dislike that for all the talent and innovation in the Japanese metal scene, that it's this group that gets noticed internationally to such a huge degree. I also think they're a novelty act and will fade away when the novelty wears off. But they're still metal.

Are they a manufactured metal band? Oh you betcha, but if you think that there were no manufactured bands in metal before Babymetal, you'd be wrong. Nor are they the only band out for money, if you've ever read an interview with Gene Simmons, you'd know what Kiss are all about, but they're still a great band and put on one of the best concerts I've seen, nobody would think to say they don't belong on this forum. Then there's Dethklok, a manufactured metal band put together by a TV network as a tie-in with a cartoon, you could point to them and say it's a cynical money making promotion by Adult Swin. The biggest difference between them and Babymetal though is that Dethklok make better music.

The other thing I'd say is that mixing genres can be fantastic. There's some terrific bands that mix all sorts of influences into their music, folk metal, bands who incorporate electronic elements, sometimes genre blending works and sometimes it doesn't, but I love that it's something metal tries. It's a very diverse style of music, and all the stronger for it.

You see I don't actually disagree with most of what you say here, and I'm not quite sure how I got pulled up on "genre-policing" as I said I really don't care what people label as metal nor what other genres are mixed with it (as you said, it's quite often a very good thing, Cynic being a case in point). I just wanted to challenge the "elitist" argument really, as I have found it used more often to simply disregard an opinion than consider it. A recent example being chatting to a guy in college, turns out he liked Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer etc and I was getting really into a new thrash band called Vektor. I asked him about it them, he'd never heard of them so I tried to explain what was great about them and suggest he should check them out. "Nah, man. No time for that elitist, underground rubbish. The good stuff always rises to the top." Tried to argue with that thought process but just repeatedly branded elitist.

And I'm certainly not against mainstream stuff in the slightest, whether I like the music or not. I mean I cannot stand nu-metal, never have, but I've never seriously argued against it nor given anyone stick for liking it.

I read the thing about Cannibal Corpse fans and Cynic too, and let's be honest, that says more about Cannibal Corpse fans than it does metal fans in general. Cynic were a very much loved band back in the early 90s, held in very high esteem alongside Death, Pestlience and Atheist but Cannibal Corpse fans, I have found, can be a different bunch entirely. Sort of like those knuckle-draggers you might see constantly yelling "Slaaaayyyeeerrr!!!" everytime they sniff a beer.

As for a manufactured metal band... I do think it is essentially the antithesis of why the genre started in the first place, i.e., stuck in a depressing city like Birmingham, frustrated with nothing to do; but I'm unlikely to come across them again so it doesn't really bother me
I do think there is something to the argument for how far can you go from the spirit of why a genre was founded before it's time to drop the term. But then again, I'm also not one for needlessly labelling bands and styles so I'm kinda torn on it.

Reiketsu

So tempted to hit the London show....

endacl

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Oh please! "Wider implications"? Yeah! BABYMETAL are going to ruin metal. This is the end.

They're certainly not. You presented this tripe to a rock and metal forum. Presumably to elicit a response. There's no point in getting your back up because the respondents have, by and large, identified it as the shyte it is. By all means listen to it and enjoy it yourself. More power to you. It'll not ruin metal any more than crochet or ping-pong will.

What did you expect.

Links234

spiritcrusher wrote: »

You see I don't actually disagree with most of what you say here, and I'm not quite sure how I got pulled up on "genre-policing" as I said I really don't care what people label as metal nor what other genres are mixed with it (as you said, it's quite often a very good thing, Cynic being a case in point). I just wanted to challenge the "elitist" argument really, as I have found it used more often to simply disregard an opinion than consider it. A recent example being chatting to a guy in college, turns out he liked Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer etc and I was getting really into a new thrash band called Vektor. I asked him about it them, he'd never heard of them so I tried to explain what was great about them and suggest he should check them out. "Nah, man. No time for that elitist, underground rubbish. The good stuff always rises to the top." Tried to argue with that thought process but just repeatedly branded elitist.

And I'm certainly not against mainstream stuff in the slightest, whether I like the music or not. I mean I cannot stand nu-metal, never have, but I've never seriously argued against it nor given anyone stick for liking it.

I read the thing about Cannibal Corpse fans and Cynic too, and let's be honest, that says more about Cannibal Corpse fans than it does metal fans in general. Cynic were a very much loved band back in the early 90s, held in very high esteem alongside Death, Pestlience and Atheist but Cannibal Corpse fans, I have found, can be a different bunch entirely. Sort of like those knuckle-draggers you might see constantly yelling "Slaaaayyyeeerrr!!!" everytime they sniff a beer.

As for a manufactured metal band... I do think it is essentially the antithesis of why the genre started in the first place, i.e., stuck in a depressing city like Birmingham, frustrated with nothing to do; but I'm unlikely to come across them again so it doesn't really bother me
I do think there is something to the argument for how far can you go from the spirit of why a genre was founded before it's time to drop the term. But then again, I'm also not one for needlessly labelling bands and styles so I'm kinda torn on it.

Well I definitely agree with you there, that people can very easily dismiss other people's views as being elitist or dismiss bands who aren't popular. Thinking that something is good because it's popular is a huge fallacy, and I don't think we can disagree there. I've come across the whole "If they're so good why haven't I heard of them before?" attitude plenty before, and it grates.

But it's the attitude of "This isn't metal, GTFO!" that I'm disagreeing with in this thread, it's not only dismissive, but it stiffles discussion too. It's not considering someone's opinion, or discussing a point, or critiquing the topic it hand. If you tell someone to get lost because you don't like the particular style of metal or band they're talking about, then there's nothing to be said and no discussion to be had. That's partically saying I don't want to discuss this and you shouldn't get to either. What's worse, it's extremely offputting to any new people coming along.

As for how far you can go from the roots of a genre, well I've no clue. I know for some people just keyboards or synth can be a huge point of contention and that they have no place in metal, but I think that's a line for each person to draw for themselves. Manufactured bands aren't a new thing to metal, and it's not going to kill metal either. I'm no purist, and I think mixing genres is amazing, I love just how much metal has evolved and continues to evolve.

I'd even suggest treating a topic like this as a springboard into wider discussion on Japanese music... Hey, someone who's interested in Babymetal probably won't be taken with Sigh or Intestine Baalism, but lets take the OP of this thread who says they're interested in Japanese culture? Well lets take a look at something a bit different then!

Dublin Red Devil!

Give The Wagakki Band a listen to, they blend rock with a lot of traditional Japanese instruments, so if you want some music with a bit more cultural touch, they're well worth a look and the singer is absolutely fantastic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_xTet06SUo

This song also happens to be a cover of a Vocaloid song, how interesting is that!? If you don't know what Vocaloid is, it's a voice synthisizer developed in Japan, it was also used by Susumu Hirasawa to create the unique vocal parts on his soundtrack to the movie Paprika. So now we're talking about some other interesting musical goingons from Japan.

And for more traditional metal fans, give Outrage a whirl, they've been putting out some seriously intense thrash metal, reminds me of Testament in their prime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdRZPvlS2PQ

Also, this seems a bit on topic here now