Hen parties...why not just one night as tradition?

Liam McPoyle

Some interesting reading on this thread.

I have to say, Im thoroughly looking forward to my stag weekend when ever it is. I intend having it over a minimum of 2 nights, possibly 3 depending on where we go. Not that Im feeling the need to explain myself but Im going to share my thoughts on it and the 2 main reasons why I want to have one.

1) I love my pints, I genuinely do. Myself and herself are paying for the wedding ourselves so with that in mind, its going to result in us pretty much cutting our socializing down to a bare minimum over the next year or so. We know what we want and we are willing to pay for it so for me, its not a sacrifice but if all goes according to plan we will have everything pretty much paid for within 2 months of the wedding so the stag will be a big blow out, the feast after the famine if you will.

2) Ive lived in a couple of different counties, worked for a couple of different companies, and have college friends that I rarely get to see. The stag will be an opportunity to spend some time with people that played important parts in my life throughout its various stages from when I started in secondary school up to the present day. Been in a couple makes it very difficult to see people, particularly the ones (which are in the majority) that live outside of Dublin so with the stag its setting a date to be able to say, "right lads, we are going to hang out, get pissed, talk shyte and have a laugh, just like we did in the past".


There is alot of judgement in this thread from people almost looking down on others that choose to have a hen or a stag, and vice versa.

Some people are into them, some aren't, and both is ok, ultimately its purely personal preference so nobody has the right to sneer or condescend to others that choose to have one or not.

ABajaninCork

As far as I can see, nobody was 'condescending' as you put it. A couple of posters got a bit heated, but it's par for these sort of threads which inevitably descend into chaos.

But the OP asked a question. We've all chipped in with differing opinions. That's it.

Toots

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Oh don't!! That happened at a hen I was at in Soho once. The bride just wanted a meal and a dance. She said NO STRPPERS!! Fair enough, I say. Suits me fine.

We were all dancing and having a good time when my boss comes round asking for £20. What for? I says. To get a lap dance for Jane she says. Are you sure? I thought she said no strippers?? Nah, she'll be fine. She'll love it says my boss. I had no money, intending to go to the cashpoint later, so I tell her that.

They got the stripper anyway. And guess what? The bride had an absolute screaming fit and rushed out of the place in tears. Killed the night stone dead...

After that? NO MORE HEN PARTIES!!!

My SIL was at a hens where that happened. It was a nice dinner in a private area of a gastro-pub type thing, everyone having a lovely time. Then this random dude shows up and starts stripping down to an ill fitting banana hammock, then whipped that off too and was basically waving his gentleman vegetables in the bride's face!! They were all wondering what the hell was going on and thought maybe there was another hen group in the pub and he got the groups mixed up. Turns out one of the girls on the hen had, unbeknownst to anyone else, taken it upon herself to hire the stripper!! And was very put out when she tried to do a whip around to recoup what she'd spent and the rest of the group (quite rightly) refused to chip in.

rainbow kirby

Hen party? A few close friends and a keg of Old Speckled Hen sounds pretty good

Gatica

Toots* wrote: »

And was very put out when she tried to do a whip around to recoup what she'd spent and the rest of the group (quite rightly) refused to chip in.

Fair play to them for sticking to their guns. Ridiculous to go against bride's wishes.
I didn't want tack at my hen. There was some, but it was within a reasonable frame that it didn't freak me out completely. Ultimately at that stage I just had to go with the flow, and it all turned out to be good fun anyway... luckily no onlookers as we were staying in cottages.

littlelulu

I was invited to a hen night before. The email with the information stated:

X said she doesn't want any tack so get out there and find the tackiest thing possible. I didn't get anything.

I don't understand why somebody would go against someones wishes

Neyite

littlelulu wrote: »

I was invited to a hen night before. The email with the information stated:

X said she doesn't want any tack so get out there and find the tackiest thing possible. I didn't get anything.

I don't understand why somebody would go against someones wishes

Some 'friend'.

I think age can be a factor too. In my early twenties, a 2 day hen full of drink, strippers and willie straws would have been hilarious. Now I'm going to be 40 at least when I marry, because we've not set a date yet, but I think my group of friends would enjoy more a relaxing time away from our kids, and time to catch up properly because we dont see each other as often as we did when we were younger.

When you think about it, if we already have toddlers forcing us to wear tacky dress-up clothes, following us into the loos, spilling drinks, puking, messing with tacky plastic tat, that flashes and makes lots of noise and has music, throwing strops, getting lost, crying, being loud, ruining a nice outfit, etc etc every single day, is it any wonder some of us would prefer a tranquil spa day, a hot meal (that we can actually finish) a nice cuppa and an early (uninterrupted) night for a change :pac:.

Typer Monkey

Ha Neyite! Very true. You just made me feel very old

Woodville56

Totally agree with Op on this topic! Was in a large provincial town/city a few weekends ago and came upon 2 Hen Parties on the streets. One was fine, all jolly and fun and well behaved etc. The shenanigans of the second group however were disgraceful: very drunk, disheveled , making lewd/ crude gestures at passing males, carrying an inflatable plastic "male organ" and making gestures with same item, raucous loud and boorish. If this is anyone's idea of a good time, I must be losing it and completely out of touch in my middle age !!
I'm definitely not prudish or against people having a good time, most of the Hen and Stag parties I see are fine and enjoying themselves, but this "performance " was disgraceful and demeaning of all involved. The look of amazement on the faces of tourists and passers by said it all - I don't think they were finding it amusing or funny ! As for the participants in the debacle - they appeared to be so p***ed that the probably don't remember much of it ! Is this really the way Irish women ( definite Irish accents) albeit a small minority, want to be seen having a good time ?? Is this the way Ireland Inc want their cities and towns portrayed to tourists etc ?

Tarzana

amdublin wrote: »

Since when (and why) did the hen parties turn into big expensive two/three night events?

My sis's hen is coming up in about 5 months and she was very clear that it's just to be one night, dinner followed by drinks in Dublin where she and most of most attendees live. She knows that it's tight financially for some of her friends and always found the weekend away thing decadent anyway. There are loads of lovely restaurants in Dublin that do great value set menus so I'm finding it pretty easy to plan!

Tarzana

homemadecider wrote: »

THIS! Someone was giving out to me for not including an "activity" in my hen night. I'm 31 years old FFS, I don't need to organise activities for my friends, we're old enough to entertain ourselves. Wine and gossip is activity enough!

Especially as people's interests vary so much. If it was an activity I enjoy, I'd be all for it, but if not, apathy would be the best I could muster.

michellie

I'd do a one nighter here only for Waterford is awful for pubs and bars! I'm thinking about going to Galway for mine, I hate all the dressing up and matching t-shirts and all that jazz.

So I'm gona go for a nice hotel and nice dinner somewhere with drinks afterwards:)

Electric Sheep

littlelulu wrote: »

I was invited to a hen night before. The email with the information stated:

X said she doesn't want any tack so get out there and find the tackiest thing possible. I didn't get anything.

I don't understand why somebody would go against someones wishes

For the "craic":rolleyes:. You must be no craic at all.

mrsbyrne

littlelulu wrote: »

I was invited to a hen night before. The email with the information stated:

X said she doesn't want any tack so get out there and find the tackiest thing possible. I didn't get anything.

I don't understand why somebody would go against someones wishes

See this is bitchiness of the highest order. The sender of the e mail is really saying " even though the bride likes me enough to trust me with her hen night, I think she's a stuck up cow so I'm going to ruin the night for her and your going to help me". This is how women treat other women. Men don't act like this.

Toots

Neyite wrote: »

Some 'friend'.

I think age can be a factor too. In my early twenties, a 2 day hen full of drink, strippers and willie straws would have been hilarious. Now I'm going to be 40 at least when I marry, because we've not set a date yet, but I think my group of friends would enjoy more a relaxing time away from our kids, and time to catch up properly because we dont see each other as often as we did when we were younger.

I was 24 getting married and I definitely didn't think willy straws were hilarious! My hen was in my parents house so I was adamant that nothing remotely phallic would feature in the festivities, particularly considering that my mother in law and my own mum and dad were at the party too

. My sister put it on the invitations that I didn't want any "hen" gear and thankfully nobody decided to stick L plates on me or arrange for a naked man to gyrate on my face

I really don't understand why people would go out of their way to arrange stuff like this, particularly if it's the polar opposite of what the bride would like.

Faith

I don't want any tack at all for mine... But I still think willie straws are hilarious

XxMCRxBabyxX

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Men don't act like this.

While I agree with you in general lets not turn this into a women v men thing. Men can be just as bad as finding ways to bring in what they want even if their friends don't. It's more of a general this is what always happens on hens/stags and I want it to happen so screw them and what they want. Male or female.

michellie

Electric Sheep wrote: »

For the "craic":rolleyes:. You must be no craic at all.

I would HATE if my friends did that and they know I don't like all that tacky stuff.

And I think I'm good craic:)

Toots

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

While I agree with you in general lets not turn this into a women v men thing. Men can be just as bad as finding ways to bring in what they want even if their friends don't. It's more of a general this is what always happens on hens/stags and I want it to happen so screw them and what they want. Male or female.

I remember coming back from a boards beers years ago and a group of us were all coming out of burger king on o'connell street and came across some poor stag who had all his clothes robbed by his so-called-mates and was covered in what looked like paint. He was wandering up the road like a crab trying to keep his bits covered with a runner

Neyite

Toots* wrote: »

I was 24 getting married and I definitely didn't think willy straws were hilarious! My hen was in my parents house so I was adamant that nothing remotely phallic would feature in the festivities, particularly considering that my mother in law and my own mum and dad were at the party too

. My sister put it on the invitations that I didn't want any "hen" gear and thankfully nobody decided to stick L plates on me or arrange for a naked man to gyrate on my face

I really don't understand why people would go out of their way to arrange stuff like this, particularly if it's the polar opposite of what the bride would like.

You know you have keepers if your friends arrange exactly the kind of night you'd enjoy. If someone did the polar opposite of what I'd feel comfortable with, causing me to squirm with embarrassment I'd honestly be rethinking the friendship, wondering if she 'gets' me at all.

dizzymiss

I have a hen in a couple of weeks. It's a two nighter. Total cost for the two nights is €265 & we have to bring a gift for the hen. I could prob get a break a broad for that price. Complete madness.

I can only go one night, which btw is €150 & get a very clear vibe from the hen that she is less than impressed with me. I have also been told that she is considering uninviting a friend to the wedding, who is unable to make the hen.

Madness.

ABajaninCork

Then I wouldn't go to the wedding. Tell the ignorant woman to get knotted...

Midnight Sundance

I agree. If a bride can't understand that the world does not revolve around her then she needs a dose of reality.
I'm all on for a hen that suits you, be that one night , two nights or a week away, but do not get vexed if your night is not everyone else's cup of tea!
If people want to come , they'll come. If they can't they can't. Everyone's circumstances are different and to expect a large group of people to be universally available one a selected night is near on impossible.,

Toots

Neyite wrote: »

You know you have keepers if your friends arrange exactly the kind of night you'd enjoy. If someone did the polar opposite of what I'd feel comfortable with, causing me to squirm with embarrassment I'd honestly be rethinking the friendship, wondering if she 'gets' me at all.

It was lovely, exactly what I wanted. About 20 friends and family in my parents' house, my Mum cooked up a nice buffet type dinner and Dad did all the drinks, my sisters put together a collage of childhood photos which was really sweet, and we just played a few games (the one where you get asked a question and have to guess your hubby to be's response, make a wedding dress out of toilet paper, and pictionary ) I hate being the centre of attention so something nice and quiet at home suited me grand. I think because everyone knew it was at my parents' house, they all knew it would be sooo inappropriate to bring a massive inflatable penis! Poor Dad would have been traumatised!

I think sometimes there's a little bit of schadenfreude from girls organising hens, it seems like some of them go out of their way to absolutely mortify the bride to be. I mean a bit of harmless fun like whipping out embarrassing childhood photos (usually from the awkward teenage fashion stage) is grand, but I was at one hen where it was just too far and the bride was really mortified, the bridesmaids made a holy show of her in the middle of a fairly rural pub near we were staying - it was quiet, but there were still a good few people there. She was trying to look like she was enjoying because there were so many people there but a few of us were talking to her later and she was really upset. The worst part was the two bridesmaids thought the whole thing was hilarious, and the rest of us were just sitting there feeling really, really awkward.

Gatica

dizzymiss wrote: »

I have a hen in a couple of weeks. It's a two nighter. Total cost for the two nights is €265 & we have to bring a gift for the hen. I could prob get a break a broad for that price. Complete madness.

I can only go one night, which btw is €150 & get a very clear vibe from the hen that she is less than impressed with me. I have also been told that she is considering uninviting a friend to the wedding, who is unable to make the hen.

Madness.

That's insane. Any way you can drop her?

Neyite

Neyite wrote: »

When you think about it, if we already have toddlers forcing us to wear tacky dress-up clothes, following us into the loos, spilling drinks, puking, messing with tacky plastic tat, that flashes and makes lots of noise and has music, throwing strops, getting lost, crying, being loud, ruining a nice outfit, etc etc every single day, is it any wonder some of us would prefer a tranquil spa day, a hot meal (that we can actually finish) a nice cuppa and an early (uninterrupted) night for a change :pac:.

I have to say my ideal hen if I ever have one would be some afternoon tea, spa stuff, maybe a few cocktails after

dizzymiss

Gatica wrote: »

That's insane. Any way you can drop her?

I love this girl to bits, have been friends for years. She has plenty of money, parents paying for wedding, house, honeymoon and sometimes I think she forgets others arent in the same position as her. You might call her high maintenance and is getting carried away with herself. Yes, I will go and just complain about it here and to my husband.

dizzymiss

bluewolf wrote: »

I have to say my ideal hen if I ever have one would be some afternoon tea, spa stuff, maybe a few cocktails after

This was me. We stayed in my town, went to a really nice local hotel, did a cocktail class, enjoyed said cocktails, had some yummy food and fun and went home to our own beds that night. It was so much craic and nobody was under pressure.

Gatica

dizzymiss wrote: »

I love this girl to bits, have been friends for years. She has plenty of money, parents paying for wedding, house, honeymoon and sometimes I think she forgets others arent in the same position as her. You might call her high maintenance and is getting carried away with herself. Yes, I will go and just complain about it here and to my husband.

Sorry, I guess realistically sometimes our friends might mean the world to us but be up in the clouds a little.

Gatica

bluewolf wrote: »

I have to say my ideal hen if I ever have one would be some afternoon tea, spa stuff, maybe a few cocktails after

ah, should've invited you to my hen Relaxing afternoon in spa with some cupcakes, cocktails and all "activities" restricted to the cottage.

dizzymiss

Gatica wrote: »

Sorry, I guess realistically sometimes our friends might mean the world to us but be up in the clouds a little.

Sure what would you be sorry for. Some people really do just live in the clouds. Climbing up and down to them can get tiring sometimes though

username123

dizzymiss wrote: »

I have a hen in a couple of weeks. It's a two nighter. Total cost for the two nights is €265 & we have to bring a gift for the hen. I could prob get a break a broad for that price. Complete madness.

I can only go one night, which btw is €150 & get a very clear vibe from the hen that she is less than impressed with me. I have also been told that she is considering uninviting a friend to the wedding, who is unable to make the hen.

Madness.

Heres your chance to get out of the no doubt bridezilla wedding too!! Say you cant make the hen!

dizzymiss

username123 wrote: »

Heres your chance to get out of the no doubt bridezilla wedding too!! Say you cant make the hen!

Well I prob wont make the wedding. Due a baby that week. I'll be sorry to miss it though. Like I said they're the best of friends, maybe just a little in the clouds as another poster put it.

amdublin

dizzymiss wrote: »

I have a hen in a couple of weeks. It's a two nighter. Total cost for the two nights is €265 & we have to bring a gift for the hen. I could prob get a break a broad for that price. Complete madness.

I can only go one night, which btw is €150 & get a very clear vibe from the hen that she is less than impressed with me. I have also been told that she is considering uninviting a friend to the wedding, who is unable to make the hen.

Madness.

Oh god that's a lot of money

Tarzana

Do you reckon some bridesmaids do the "make a holy show of the bride-to-be" thing because they think it might be expected and that the bride might be put out if they didn't? Maybe some bridesmaids aren't into it either but just feel like they have to?

sadie06

To get stroppy because people can't make your hen, or can only make one night of a 2-nighter is just downright self-centred.

It's also impossible to tell how people are fixed financially these days as the recession has left many wealthy in appearance (decent job, decent car, decent house) but in reality they are heavily indebted and struggling.

As an aside, the worst hen-zilla story I ever heard was about a hen who was 'underwhelmed' with a certain gift* that had become a hen's night tradition within their group, and asked a few days later for it to be recreated. :rolleyes:

She got no reply!

* I'm being deliberately vague, but you can use your imagination.

Teyla Emmagan

Tarzana wrote: »

Do you reckon some bridesmaids do the "make a holy show of the bride-to-be" thing because they think it might be expected and that the bride might be put out if they didn't? Maybe some bridesmaids aren't into it either but just feel like they have to?

Actually I know someone who had an 'all day' hen. She's not from Ireland, so had a few friends come over and went to lunch in town followed by some early afternoon ceili thing down in Temple Bar. She was adamant that she didn't want 'all that stuff', but then when she saw the other hen party at the ceili started going on that it didn't feel like a hen at all. So when we all met up later for dinner, two of the girls had abandoned their own plans of going back to the hotel and getting changed in favour of going to Claire's and buying a load of tat. And then she was happy. But she had honestly sworn before hand she didn't want any of it. How do you make a call in that situation then? I just felt sorry for the 2 girls who had to go out to dinner in the clothes they'd been ceili dancing all day in (not that it mattered to me, but they felt hot and under dressed and uncomfortable).

dizzymiss

A couple of years back, my best friend was getting married and having her hen in London over a three day weekend (the good times rolled!). I had gone back to college the previous year and was only working part time so couldnt make it. It bothers me to this day that I couldnt go. And although she never said anything, i think it really bothered her.

bee06

Tarzana wrote: »

Do you reckon some bridesmaids do the "make a holy show of the bride-to-be" thing because they think it might be expected and that the bride might be put out if they didn't? Maybe some bridesmaids aren't into it either but just feel like they have to?

It's pretty easy to ask the bride what she wants and if she says one thing but wants the opposite then she deserves to be disappointed in my opinion.

kkcatlou

bee06 wrote: »

It's pretty easy to ask the bride what she wants and if she says one thing but wants the opposite then she deserves to be disappointed in my opinion.

To be honest, I think a lot of brides do this. Like the example above, most say they don't want any tack, but when it comes to the night, and they are part of the whole thing and not just onlookers like you would be on a regular Saturday night, they want what they didn't think they did!!

The same as in the debate about photos on Facebook - a lot will say in advance they don't, but then the day after the wedding will get the blues and be trawling Facebook for any little glimpse of the day.

Tough one, but I think it's about really knowing the bride and what she is like and would and wouldn't like! And what would cause her to throw an absolute strop!

To play down tackiness, but still feel part of a hen, I've used things like badges, rings, small garlands (one of, not all)....so you are still a "hen party" but not a pink t-shirts, bunny ears, inflatable willy, all guns blazing tacky hen!

Also, do the bridal tack in the house beforehand - the hens I've organised, we've bought all the tack for the Mr and Mrs Game, so each time she gets a question right, she gets a whip, veil, L plates, etc. You get the craic in the house without being on display, then she gets to decide what she keeps on for the night out. Some girls (usually the ones who say they want no tack) keep it all, some none, but most will wear just the gloves or the veil or something small that highlights they are the hen!

Re: the Facebook photos thing, I would be much more in favour of no Facebook photos of a hen than of a wedding. The last two I organised, we set up a closed group that nobody else could see where people posted the photos. We then did (actually am in the process of doing .....11 months later) an album with all the photos and memories of the weekend for her to keep.

Gatica

bee06 wrote: »

It's pretty easy to ask the bride what she wants and if she says one thing but wants the opposite then she deserves to be disappointed in my opinion.

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

She was adamant that she didn't want 'all that stuff', but then when she saw the other hen party at the ceili started going on that it didn't feel like a hen at all.

As above poster showed, I think in some cases the bride doesn't realise that she'd like all that stuff til it's almost too late. It's not always a thing where they want one thing and ask for another.

bee06

Gatica wrote: »

As above poster showed, I think in some cases the bride doesn't realise that she'd like all that stuff til it's almost too late. It's not always a thing where they want one thing and ask for another.

Fair enough, maybe I'm the exception so in that I know myself well enough to know what I like and don't like.

mrsbyrne

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Actually I know someone who had an 'all day' hen. She's not from Ireland, so had a few friends come over and went to lunch in town followed by some early afternoon ceili thing down in Temple Bar. She was adamant that she didn't want 'all that stuff', but then when she saw the other hen party at the ceili started going on that it didn't feel like a hen at all. So when we all met up later for dinner, two of the girls had abandoned their own plans of going back to the hotel and getting changed in favour of going to Claire's and buying a load of tat. And then she was happy. But she had honestly sworn before hand she didn't want any of it. How do you make a call in that situation then? I just felt sorry for the 2 girls who had to go out to dinner in the clothes they'd been ceili dancing all day in (not that it mattered to me, but they felt hot and under dressed and uncomfortable).

Oh Lord. Am i the only one who thinks that it is really strange for a grown woman to be, in effect, sulking and huffing like a toddler, and even stranger for other adult women to be indulging her like this?

foggy

sadie06 wrote: »

To get stroppy because people can't make your hen, or can only make one night of a 2-nighter is just downright self-centred.

And I have the opposite problem, I am having a small hen party - one night only - in a small village about 30 mins away from my home town. I am only inviting a few close friends as I really don't want to put people to any expense - an activity, a meal, a night away and drinks all add up at any time but especially in the height of the summer when people have their own stuff going on. However, some of my friends from work are less that impressed that I didn't invite them.
They are all married/with partners/have children and I really wouldn't socialise with them outside of work and work events. I didn't set out to exclude them but felt that it would be seen as a burden or an obligation to attend by them. so there you go.. proof that even when trying to not put expectation or expense on people, you can't do right for doing wrong!

kkcatlou

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Oh Lord. Am i the only one who thinks that it is really strange for a grown woman to be, in effect, sulking and huffing like a toddler, and even stranger for other adult women to be indulging her like this?

And just wait to see how they behave on the wedding day!
Above is the definition of a Bridezilla!

Gatica

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Oh Lord. Am i the only one who thinks that it is really strange for a grown woman to be, in effect, sulking and huffing like a toddler, and even stranger for other adult women to be indulging her like this?

not at all. Children are often miniature adults (or adults are big children, if you will), the main difference is that we learn to control those impulses better... but essentially, I think most people would still sulk to a certain extent, just some will show it more than others. A truly selfless person is a rarity.

amdublin

Gatica wrote: »

not at all. Children are often miniature adults (or adults are big children, if you will), the main difference is that we learn to control those impulses better... but essentially, I think most people would still sulk to a certain extent, just some will show it more than others. A truly selfless person is a rarity.

Eh speak for yourself. I may not be truly selfless but I manage to act like the adult that I am most of the time. And I certainly would not sulk (Christ almighty!!!!!) about my friends not making a night out.

mrsbyrne

amdublin wrote: »

Eh speak for yourself. I may not be truly selfless but I manage to act like the adult that I am most of the time. And I certainly would not sulk (Christ almighty!!!!!) about my friends not making a night out.

This for me too^^^^
Even if you are crippled with disappointment about how the night is going, the idea that you would be so immature and spoilt as to actually express that disappointment to your dearest friends, who, after all are only respecting your express wishes, is just comical to me. Really and truly, cop on and grow up girl.

Ms2011

I would have been one of those people who would have always hated the thoughts of a hen's but my sister insisted & planned the whole thing (spa treatments, dinner, night club, residents bar where we met with a stags & had a great laugh) & I have to say I'm delighted she talked me into it.
My present from the girls was a hen's book, kinda like a 'baby's first year' book where everyone signed it, wrote 'in joke' quotes from the night etc & I put picks of the night etc in it. It's such a great keepsake & I have some cherished memories so glad I did it

Teyla Emmagan

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Oh Lord. Am i the only one who thinks that it is really strange for a grown woman to be, in effect, sulking and huffing like a toddler, and even stranger for other adult women to be indulging her like this?

She was actually sulking too. She's a friend's wife, and was always very much 'all about me'. To the extent that, if we were all out somewhere and someone was paying attention to a child (seriously) she'd start carrying on until the focus was back on herself. Which is obviously pathetic and bananas.

The funny thing is that she's since had a baby and has turned into a wonderful (relaxed, unfussy, let's 'roll with it' type) mother, surprising us all.