Season 4 Episode 6 "The Laws of Gods and Men": *HAVE* read the books

Mousewar

The books are quite realistic in that regard - they reflect the lack of certainty in real life. So Martin often never gives us complete certainty about events even though he doesn't necessarily want us to believe there is more to it. It was similar with Syrio Forel's death. Because we didn't explicitly see him die, some people think that means he's really alive. Likewise, with the child that Drogon kills - we don't know for a fact that he did it but I don't think Martin intends for us to assume anything other than what appears to be most likely.

tl;dr: That kid is toast.

Boom_Bap

I think the opening scene with the Shepards Boy was to give all that have read the books a little bit of excitement.
I was certain that the boy was going to be fried. And when the shepard opened the package, I was expecting child bones, but then there was an obvious sheeps skull there.

So I who have read the books was on edge as he unwrapped the blanket, whereas my missus who has not read the books was unmoved by the scene.

ArmaniJeanss

Gbear wrote: »

His child dies (of a disease rather than dragonfire) and he hears Dany has opened a cash for goats outlet. He figures he can make some money from it?

All he'd have to do would be burn the body.

:pac:

Paddy Cow

Gbear wrote: »

His child dies (of a disease rather than dragonfire) and he hears Dany has opened a cash for goats outlet. He figures he can make some money from it?

All he'd have to do would be burn the body.

If Arya gives the Hound the gift of mercy and there is no question that he is dead, then I and a lot of people would be p!ssed because there is solid evidence that he is the grave digger. That is what I would consider an example of the show spoilering the books.

Once Dany sorts it out with him, his part in the story is done. In the books there is no reason to disbelieve the guy. The dragons are getting bigger and more out of control. They see a child as a nice tasty meal and eat it. I would imagine that if left long enough, they would start eating adults. Reading more into this is nothing more than whataboutery.

bopper

It's questioned in the book that Drogon didn't actually kill the child but Dany is unable to believe it because of how the father grieved, and the fact that he waited until the entire court had cleared before he presented the bones. That makes sense and the fact that is was never questioned again says to me that there's nothing more to it than that.

I actually prefer the new Daario to the previous guy.

Gbear

Paddy Cow wrote: »

If Arya gives the Hound the gift of mercy and there is no question that he is dead, then I and a lot of people would be p!ssed because there is solid evidence that he is the grave digger. That is what I would consider an example of the show spoilering the books.

Once Dany sorts it out with him, his part in the story is done. In the books there is no reason to disbelieve the guy. The dragons are getting bigger and more out of control. They see a child as a nice tasty meal and eat it. I would imagine that if left long enough, they would start eating adults. Reading more into this is nothing more than whataboutery.

Yeah I don't believe that it's made up either but it's raised by the Shavepate that the man might be full of **** (and he even suggests taking his tongue to stop him spreading "lies").

We see Drogon eating people in the fighting pits (Barsena) so there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't eat a kiddie.

I was just answering your question. It wouldn't be a hard thing to fake.

Sulla Felix

Has there been any mention of the Myrcella as Queen conspiracy yet? Fairly sure it had been foreshadowed in the books before the trial, at least before the Viper vs Mountain. I hope we get to see Dorne, the sand snakes etc

Gadgie

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Has there been any mention of the Myrcella as Queen conspiracy yet? Fairly sure it had been foreshadowed in the books before the trial, at least before the Viper vs Mountain. I hope we get to see Dorne, the sand snakes etc

I don't think that storyline started until the fourth book. I'm not expecting to see Dorne until next season.

rawn

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Has there been any mention of the Myrcella as Queen conspiracy yet? Fairly sure it had been foreshadowed in the books before the trial, at least before the Viper vs Mountain. I hope we get to see Dorne, the sand snakes etc

celica00

I finally watched the episode too!

I have to say that this one is the best one so far (whole show).

I found everything brilliant, the actors are amazing!
The bit with Asha was very good too in my opinion, and "Reek" is such a good actor.
The last bit of the episode was very well played, so many emotions. Really enjoyed the whole episode.

Hotale.com

rawn wrote: »

Different customs in Dorne. In Dorne sex doesn't matter, Myrcella is older than Tommen, so therefore by Dornish customs she should be queen.

(I think that's it anyway :P)

Sulla Felix

After going back and skimming end of aSoS and start of DwD. In the book, Oberyn and Tyrion discuss Myrcella before the trial, Oberyn offering to show Tyrion around Dorne if he'd like, seeming to think he had Sansa stashed somewhere and she'd be along too once Tyrion is free.
One of the main sandsnakes then takes up the idea in the start of DwD.
And yeah, according to treaty with Targaryens from the conquest, Dornish law would hold sway in Dorne, so the thinking is that while in Dorne, Myrcella is actually next in line since women can inherit before men in Dorne.

Sleepy

The only complaint in this episode would be that Yara/Asha has danced the finger dance IIRC so why the hell wasn't her axe buried in Ramsey's skull before he could open the cell door?

Hotale.com

Sleepy wrote: »

The only complaint in this episode would be that Yara/Asha has danced the finger dance IIRC so why the hell wasn't her axe buried in Ramsey's skull before he could open the cell door?

Couldn't they have killed the dogs anyway if he did release them? They were armoured, had axes shields, and there were only about 10 dogs max, would have easily killed them..

Mousewar

Hotale.com wrote: »

Couldn't they have killed the dogs anyway if he did release them? They were armoured, had axes shields, and there were only about 10 dogs max, would have easily killed them..

This.
Why in sweet f**k would an armoured group with swords and axes be afraid of a few dogs?

Witcher

They didn't run from the dogs...there was no point staying to fcuk around with dogs when the Dreadfort garrison was going to arrive and decimate them.

She retreated to save herself and her men. Good commander. You don't get a reputation as a good commander and warrior by being an idiot, when you're beaten, you're beaten.

If they'd stayed they would have ended up dead outright, flayed alive or worse; like Theon.

Duckworth_Luas

Mousewar wrote: »

This.
Why in sweet f**k would an armoured group with swords and axes be afraid of a few dogs?

Obviously the dogs had bees in their mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you.

celica00

Also: as she gave up on Theon, there was no need to stay longer and risk their lifes...

Hotale.com

celica00 wrote: »

Also: as she gave up on Theon, there was no need to stay longer and risk their lifes...

Killing Ramsay wasn't worth staying for?

Mousewar

Blay wrote: »

They didn't run from the dogs...there was no point staying to fcuk around with dogs when the Dreadfort garrison was going to arrive and decimate them.

She retreated to save herself and her men. Good commander. You don't get a reputation as a good commander and warrior by being an idiot, when you're beaten, you're beaten.

If they'd stayed they would have ended up dead outright, flayed alive or worse; like Theon.

I suppose that makes sense but then it was the failing of the show in not leaving that as the main impression on the viewer. The emphasis was on the dogs. It would have been far better to hear the feet of an approaching garrison and a lingering look at Theon before fleeing. Instead we got ramsey waving a key and a dog that would be felled in one swing of an ax barking.

It also made a mockery of all the buildup - her speech to her men on the boat, her speech to her father. And all for a five minute scene where she flees with her tail between her legs.

Witcher

Hotale.com wrote: »

Killing Ramsay wasn't worth staying for?

When that was done and they had retreated anyway who would Roose have taken it out on?

Witcher

Mousewar wrote: »

I suppose that makes sense but then it was the failing of the show in not leaving that as the main impression on the viewer. The emphasis was on the dogs. It would have been far better to hear the feet of an approaching garrison and a lingering look at Theon before fleeing. Instead we got ramsey waving a key and a dog that would be felled in one swing of an ax barking.

It also made a mockery of all the buildup - her speech to her men on the boat, her speech to her father. And all for a five minute scene where she flees with her tail between her legs.

You could see on Yara's face that she was weighing up the situation. The very fact that she returned to her men shows that she values them leaving the Dreadfort more than taking her chances continuing a fight they were going to lose. Their only advantage was suprise and that was lost when the alarm sounded.

The non readers seem to have grasped her reasoning better than the readers. Readers seem to think the Ironborn are like Klingons and never surrender or retreat, they have done in the past and it's not a mark against them on the Iron Islands.

Mousewar

Blay wrote: »

You could see on Yara's face that she was weighing up the situation. The very fact that she returned to her men shows that she values them leaving the Dreadfort more than taking her chances continuing a fight they were going to lose. Their only advantage was suprise and that was lost when the alarm sounded.

The non readers seem to have grasped her reasoning better than the readers. Readers seem to think the Ironborn are like Klingons and never surrender or retreat, they have done in the past and it's not a mark against them on the Iron Islands.

I'm not criticising Yara's actions - just the shows depiction of them. The whole scene was a major anti-climax after her earlier pronouncements and the dog part of it was shoe-horned in where it wasn't needed and they failed to adequately articulate her thinking.

TimeToShine

Especially considering the dramatic ending to last season where she had her big speech about rescuing Theon.

The show needs Victarion/Euron introduced because as far as the viewers are concerned nobody gives a flying **** about the ironborn.

celica00

But honestly. If you think about it from a human point of view (ignoring the books), it makes sense doesn't it?
Even with reading the books...the father already turned on him, she tried but now does the same for obvious reasons.

Boom_Bap

The dogs as shown in earlier an earlier episode are well used to hunting humans. This time though, they weren't abused unarmed hookers

Zillah

The scene with Yara was horrendously done. It was definitely set up so that they ran in fear from the dogs, which as said is ridiculous; armed and armoured soldiers have nothing to fear from a pack of dogs. Any claims about them fleeing because of an incoming garrison is pure invention. That would have made more sense but that was not what happened in the show.

There was only a half naked Ramsay and a couple of guards left in the room, there was no reason given for why they couldn't have finished them off and dragged Theon out. Obviously that can't happen, so she needs to fail for some reason, but it was badly handled.

rawn

Zillah wrote: »

The scene with Yara was horrendously done. It was definitely set up so that they ran in fear from the dogs, which as said is ridiculous; armed and armoured soldiers have nothing to fear from a pack of dogs. Any claims about them fleeing because of an incoming garrison is pure invention. That would have made more sense but that was not what happened in the show.

There was only a half naked Ramsay and a couple of guards left in the room, there was no reason given for why they couldn't have finished them off and dragged Theon out. Obviously that can't happen, so she needs to fail for some reason, but it was badly handled.

A pack of highly trained dogs and a couple of guards, one of whom fought barechested and survived, and with the danger of more guards arriving and all of this to rescue a gelded boy who didn't want to be saved and even bit her when she tried. It made sense to run, it would have been foolish to stay. Seemed fairly obvious to me anyways, I thought the scene was rushed but otherwise fine.

username123

rawn wrote: »

A pack of highly trained dogs and a couple of guards, one of whom fought barechested and survived, and with the danger of more guards arriving and all of this to rescue a gelded boy who didn't want to be saved and even bit her when she tried. It made sense to run, it would have been foolish to stay. Seemed fairly obvious to me anyways, I thought the scene was rushed but otherwise fine.

Ramsay fighting bare chested summed up everything wrong with that scene to me. He was fighting armed and armoured men. He wouldn't have survived bare chested. He is only a bastard who was sent to live in his fathers castle at age 12, he wouldn't have the training to be some kind of amazing fighter.

pinkypinky

TimeToShine wrote: »

Especially considering the dramatic ending to last season where she had her big speech about rescuing Theon.

The show needs Victarion/Eurio introduced because as far as the viewers are concerned nobody gives a flying **** about the ironborn.

I have read the books and I couldn't care less about the Ironborn. I think the whole thing would be better without them, barring Theon's story.

TimeToShine

pinkypinky wrote: »

I have read the books and I couldn't care less about the Ironborn. I think the whole thing would be better without them, barring Theon's story.

I disagree entirely but of course it's all a matter of opinion! Euron has a big part to play in this story yet I think. I enjoyed the Kingsmoot and I liked Victarion's chapters as well, in fact I would have ranked Theon's chapters below theirs up until the end of ADWD.

celica00

On another note: well trained (fighting) dogs can easily kill armored people within a heartbeat.

Sulla Felix

celica00 wrote: »

On another note: well trained (fighting) dogs can easily kill armored people within a heartbeat.
One or two maybe day(dogs) but still...

Yep, Greeks and Romans used armoured war dogs to great effect.

In this case, try concentrating on your opponent when a mastiff is locked on your ankle or wrist etc.

DM addict

War dogs can be effective, as others have said. Unless you're covered in f-ing plate mail, including ankles etc.

Saying that, she could have thrown an axe at his face before he let the dogs out. I think she just weighed up that it wasn't worth trying to save Theon anymore. And that they need a new plan to deal with the Boltons - living to fight another day and all that.

pinkypinky

pinkypinky wrote: »

I have read the books and I couldn't care less about the Ironborn. I think the whole thing would be better without them, barring Theon's story.

i think euron in particular is one of the more promising story lines in the books at the moment. victorian i can understand why people wouldnt like he's one of my favorite characters but he's definitely a love him or hate him type char.

Oranage2

Interesting debate in the non reader thread about who will fight for tyrion, got me thinking, with one son a kings guard who can never marry and another an imp, why didn't tywin remarry and have other children?

turnikett1

Oranage2 wrote: »

Interesting debate in the non reader thread about who will fight for tyrion, got me thinking, with one son a kings guard who can never marry and another an imp, why didn't tywin remarry and have other children?

Never thought about that! Maybe he's impotent? :P

Oranage2

Oranage2 wrote: »

Interesting debate in the non reader thread about who will fight for tyrion, got me thinking, with one son a kings guard who can never marry and another an imp, why didn't tywin remarry and have other children?

It's one issue iv always had with him it makes no sense that he spends his life obsessing about his legacy but his lack of a trained in heir dosent seem to bother him we saw him talking to tommen in the show but other than that they seem to be the only house by traning an heir

Kunkka

turnikett1 wrote: »

Never thought about that! Maybe he's impotent? :P

He was totally in love with his first wife and lost interest in women after her death from what I remember reading... that & I think he felt he could change Jaime's mind at some stage anyway as has been hinted in the show from season 1. I can't remember if there was any references in the books early on...

Mousewar

He's no willy.

Witcher

He probably would have passed Casterly Rock on to Daven.

Gbear

Blay wrote: »

He probably would have passed Casterly Rock on to Daven.

Kevan, surely?

Witcher

Gbear wrote: »

Kevan, surely?

Nobody to pass it on to, Tywin had arranged for Lancel to get Darry.

He actually has others sons now that I check, only one of them is living though but Daven was made Warden of the West over him so that is telling.

I don't think Tywin would give the Rock to someone young and untested like that, I'd still go with Daven.

Michael D Not Higgins

Kunkka wrote: »

I think he felt he could change Jaime's mind at some stage anyway as has been hinted in the show from season 1.

The dismissal of Barristan Selmy was the first such occurance of a member of the Kingsguard leaving. I don't know how Tywin expected to change that.

Paddy Cow

Blay wrote: »

He probably would have passed Casterly Rock on to Daven.

Refresh my memory please. Who is Daven? I have no idea who he is!

Michael D Not Higgins

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Refresh my memory please. Who is Daven? I have no idea who he is!

He is a cousin of Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion.

Paddy Cow

June Itchy Testosterone wrote: »

It's one issue iv always had with him it makes no sense that he spends his life obsessing about his legacy but his lack of a trained in heir dosent seem to bother him we saw him talking to tommen in the show but other than that they seem to be the only house by traning an heir

This is a good point. He was obsessed with carrying on the family legacy but he knew that Jamie was Kingsguard, any children Cersei had would carry on the Baratheon name and he made it clear that he would never let Tyrion have Casterly Rock.

I know he loved his wife but considering he told Tyrion to basically rape Sansa if that was what it took for Tyrion to produce a male heir, I don't think Tywin would be that sentimental when it came to producing an heir of his own.

To be honest, it wasn't something I'd thought of before but now it is really bugging me!

Paddy Cow

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

He is a cousin of Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion.

Thanks. Is he Kevan's son? Did he get much of a mention in the books? Did Tywin hold him in high regard? Sorry for all the questions but I honestly can't remember him at all.

The relative that stands out for me was Tywin's sister, who told him that Jamie wasn't his son, Tyrion was and Tywin wasn't impressed with her, even though she was bang on the money.

Michael D Not Higgins

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Thanks. Is he Kevan's son? Did he get much of a mention in the books? Did Tywin hold him in high regard? Sorry for all the questions but I honestly can't remember him at all.

The relative that stands out for me was Tywin's sister, who told him that Jamie wasn't his son, Tyrion was and Tywin wasn't impressed with her, even though she was bang on the money.

Kevan is Tywin's brother, but Tywin married his cousin who is also a Lannister. Daven is her brother's son. Technically, he is both 1st and 2nd cousins with Tywin's children. I'm just getting this from the Lannister family tree, I don't remember much of Daven myself.

PopePalpatine

I was thinking Tywin thought it was impractical to take a second wife after his first's passing, given that at this point in time he has well outdone the average life expectancy of Westeros.